Bill Jamieson Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Bill, Does your list show dates and details of trains worked by class 27's over the Waverley Route? Regards Mark Afraid not. Mark, it's just a straightforward list in numerical order. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Border Reiver Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I have a few photos of Class 27 possibly on the Waverley route. Here is D5407 on a southbound freight 4M91 crossing the Waverley bridge over the river Eden, near the entrance to the closed Canal shed in Carlisle in January 1964. Does anyone have any details for 4M91? The loco was officially allocated to Leicester at the time. A few minutes later a brand new Clayton D8569 passed by heading north to Edinburgh Haymarket which is where the loco was initially allocated. The final photo is D5404 entering Carlisle station pulling a failed? DMU in April/May 1966. Again the headcode shows 4M91 so I presume the unit failed and the Class 27 was taken off a freight. The loco was officially allocated to Nottingham division at the time. I presume the locos had worked north from Leeds and Kingmoor had 'borrowed' them to work freights to Edinburgh 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) I have a few photos of Class 27 possibly on the Waverley route. GH013_29_20160426_0064_800_wm.jpg Here is D5407 on a southbound freight 4M91 crossing the Waverley bridge over the river Eden, near the entrance to the closed Canal shed in Carlisle in January 1964. Does anyone have any details for 4M91? The loco was officially allocated to Leicester at the time. GH013_31_20160426_0066_800_wm.jpg A few minutes later a brand new Clayton D8569 passed by heading north to Edinburgh Haymarket which is where the loco was initially allocated. GH011_32_20160423_0060_800_wm.jpg The final photo is D5404 entering Carlisle station pulling a failed? DMU in April/May 1966. Again the headcode shows 4M91 so I presume the unit failed and the Class 27 was taken off a freight. The loco was officially allocated to Nottingham division at the time. I presume the locos had worked north from Leeds and Kingmoor had 'borrowed' them to work freights to Edinburgh Wow!!!! Thanks for posting these very interesting shots! While the Clayton is probably self-explanatory (check out the recent tracklifting in the foreground too!), the others take some working out.... The train behind D5407 includes engineers' wagons (at least one Sturgeon), and I wonder if that has originated at Kingmoor Yard and is heading for another local yard, perhaps Durranhill or London Road, via the NB goods lines west of the city. The dead DMU is possibly a rescued passenger working or could be in the process of being dragged to Upperby for attention. We really could do with getting formal identity of what 4M91 was though, as it is unfamiliar to me from latterday Waverley workings. EDIT: here goes: '4M91 16:03 Carlisle-Washwood Heath' Edited January 10, 2019 by 'CHARD 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Smeeton Posted January 10, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just found these while browsing Flickr BWR0520 13T LOWFIT B452746 IN FREIGHT HAULED BY D3568 PASSING DERBY ST MARYS GOODS DEPOT 02.1966 by David Russon, on Flickr BWR0762 D5303 ON 1944 CARLISLE - EDINBURGH WAVERLEY TUE 05.07.1966 by David Russon, on Flickr BWR0763 D5303 AT HAWICK ON 1944 CARLISLE - EDINBURGH WAVERLEY TUE 05.07.1966 by David Russon, on Flickr Only of interest with the recent discussions about 26/27s. Regards Ian 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
balders Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Brilliant photos! Regards Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hall Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Any suggestions for where the second photo was taken? My first thought was the southern approach to Shankendshiel but looking at a couple of other photos I'm not so sure now. That wood on the hilltop is very distinctive but I can't place it. It's probably very obvious where it is, could someone please put me out of my misery. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 Any suggestions for where the second photo was taken? My first thought was the southern approach to Shankendshiel but looking at a couple of other photos I'm not so sure now. That wood on the hilltop is very distinctive but I can't place it. It's probably very obvious where it is, could someone please put me out of my misery. Richard My first thought was the climb up Liddesdale towards Steele Road, but admittedly, I'm less sure now. I'll seek counsel.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hall Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 My first thought was the climb up Liddesdale towards Steele Road, but admittedly, I'm less sure now. I'll seek counsel.... That was my second thought. It's a bit far to drive up for a look, and there will be a lot more forestry by now to confuse things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) That was my second thought. It's a bit far to drive up for a look, and there will be a lot more forestry by now to confuse things. The forestry is a wee bit of a curse in certain parts of the route, that;'s for sure. It has completely destroyed the almost eerie windswept emptiness between Whitrope and Riccarton (not to mention the climb up from Steele Road), transfusing it with an equally sinister claustrophobia. The agri-business has literally transformed the railway-as-part-of-the-landscape aspect that is part of the old line's charm, to such an extent that the original atmosphere is impossible to recapture for several miles. Your chosen layout location at Stobs is far more variegated, even today, with a generous mix of evergreen and deciduous woodland, not to mention the bleak angularity of the old military camp site (I know, I visited again briefly last Saturday ). Edited January 11, 2019 by 'CHARD 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 Any suggestions for where the second photo was taken? My first thought was the southern approach to Shankendshiel but looking at a couple of other photos I'm not so sure now. That wood on the hilltop is very distinctive but I can't place it. It's probably very obvious where it is, could someone please put me out of my misery. Richard I would tend to agree with your first thought - is that white house on the right not Wyndburgh Cottage at Langburnshiels? - see https://www.onthemarket.com/details/1048239/ The telegraph poles are on the correct side for it being on the descent from Whitrope in either direction, but the scattering of plantations seems more typical of that towards Shankend as it was in the 1960s. Bill 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hall Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 The forestry is a wee bit of a curse in certain parts of the route, that;'s for sure. It has completely destroyed the almost eerie windswept emptiness between Whitrope and Riccarton (not to mention the climb up from Steele Road), transfusing it with an equally sinister claustrophobia. The agri-business has literally transformed the railway-as-part-of-the-landscape aspect that is part of the old line's charm, to such an extent that the original atmosphere is impossible to recapture for several miles. Your chosen layout location at Stobs is far more variegated, even today, with a generous mix of evergreen and deciduous woodland, not to mention the bleak angularity of the old military camp site (I know, I visited again briefly last Saturday ). The lack of scenic breaks make almost every WR station unmodellable even in N gauge unless you have a ridiculous amount of space. Stobs is unusual being hemmed in by woodland: I still have to cheat, but not too much. Imagine trying to model Steele Road and its approaches. I'm feeling a bit Waverley this evening: one of the local supermarkets is stocking that iconic Scottish delicacy, tablet. Time to put the "Railway to Riccarton" LP on the turntable... Richard 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 Saddened to post this news on the thread, but I feel it is where it belongs, as so much of our source material is down to this one man. I received a note from Bruce McCartney yesterday evening to let me know that esteemed Hawick photographer Kenneth Gray has passed away. The name won't be too familiar to the general audience, but may be to participants on here through the wealth of photographs of the Waverley Route which we are fortunate to have, and access to which has been made so easy via the Railscot site. My thanks go to Kenneth for creating this wonderful legacy, and to the fellow Borderers and Teris who aided and abetted his photographic habit in the last decade of the line we love so dearly. Respecting copyright, I won't and can't reproduce images here, but I can post links in the time-honoured tradition. Rest in peace Mr K.A.Gray, you have enriched many lives with what may have seemed a pastime half a century and more ago, it's a fitting tribute that this archive will continue to provide so much enjoyment to new generations of railway devotees; may our thoughts be with his friends and family at this sad time. https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/24/467/ https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/30/904/ https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/35/147/ https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/35/67/ https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/38/756/ https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/32/92/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62440 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Thank you 'Chard. May I just add a little? Relaxed, sitting in his well-worn armchair in Hawick, stroking my Border Terrier's ear, Kenneth said to me: "You know, I like to think that perhaps when being pushed in my pram in Hawick, I actually saw an NBR Atlantic." Bruce. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 Thank you 'Chard. May I just add a little? Relaxed, sitting in his well-worn armchair in Hawick, stroking my Border Terrier's ear, Kenneth said to me: "You know, I like to think that perhaps when being pushed in my pram in Hawick, I actually saw an NBR Atlantic." Bruce. That's a wonderful thought, isn't it. It made me access this, and furthered my study, this time into those fine locomotives: https://www.lner.info/locos/C/c10c11.php Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20, 2019 5303/5383. If the loco in the picture has oval buffers then that would point to it being 5303 possibly. EE type 1 appearances. I would imagine some of these would be replacements for those well known bastions of reliability, the Claytons, and maybe weren't recorded? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hall Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Reading this sad news sent me to Railscot where I have spent an hour gorging myself on Waverley Route photographs. I can only echo 'Chard's sentiments. I think I have just found my perfect all-time favourite WR photo: sadly not one of Mr Gray's, and it may have been featured here already, but just imagine the sound. https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/22/970/ Richard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted January 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20, 2019 That's a fine obituary, and we are so lucky to have such an amazing quantity of photographs from Mr Gray. Returning, if I may, to the 'mystery' photograph in #2212, it appears in the sequence between Carlisle and Hawick, and is heading north. Given the departure time 1944 ex Carlisle, we are probably looking at around 2030 to travel the 30 miles or so needed for this kind of scenery. The fading light would have been falling on the wayside cabin ahead from almost due West at this time of year, so it seems the train is moving round a curve from a NNW direction to a NNE direction, and it looks like the line is climbing. In the middle distance past the cabin, the line is flanked on both side by trees, and further ahead the hills rise, with no obvious way through without a tunnel. So based on these I would say we are just north of Steele Road, looking towards this copse of trees, here. https://www.google.com/maps/dir//55.2379915,-2.7421488/@55.2376903,-2.7417318,469m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37175 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 That's a fine obituary, and we are so lucky to have such an amazing quantity of photographs from Mr Gray. Returning, if I may, to the 'mystery' photograph in #2212, it appears in the sequence between Carlisle and Hawick, and is heading north. Given the departure time 1944 ex Carlisle, we are probably looking at around 2030 to travel the 30 miles or so needed for this kind of scenery. The fading light would have been falling on the wayside cabin ahead from almost due West at this time of year, so it seems the train is moving round a curve from a NNW direction to a NNE direction, and it looks like the line is climbing. In the middle distance past the cabin, the line is flanked on both side by trees, and further ahead the hills rise, with no obvious way through without a tunnel. So based on these I would say we are just north of Steele Road, looking towards this copse of trees, here. https://www.google.com/maps/dir//55.2379915,-2.7421488/@55.2376903,-2.7417318,469m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0 I think Bill and Richard hit the nail on the head, with the train heading towards Langburnshiels on the approach to Shankend. Here's a comparison shot, with a crop of the photo posted above and one from my collection, albeit a slightly different perspective hence the cottage being out of shot in the one with the loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJCT Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 5303/5383. If the loco in the picture has oval buffers then that would point to it being 5303 possibly.............................. Mike. It's not just the oval buffers... it's the headcode discs rather than a 4-character panel... and the cab-front lamp-irons. I rest my case ! Alasdair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20, 2019 It's not just the oval buffers... it's the headcode discs rather than a 4-character panel... and the cab-front lamp-irons. I rest my case ! Alasdair Apologies, I took it as read that the discs were a known fact, I was trying to assist in narrowing down what the possible correct specific identification of the loco could be. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 That's a fine obituary, and we are so lucky to have such an amazing quantity of photographs from Mr Gray. Returning, if I may, to the 'mystery' photograph in #2212, it appears in the sequence between Carlisle and Hawick, and is heading north. Given the departure time 1944 ex Carlisle, we are probably looking at around 2030 to travel the 30 miles or so needed for this kind of scenery. The fading light would have been falling on the wayside cabin ahead from almost due West at this time of year, so it seems the train is moving round a curve from a NNW direction to a NNE direction, and it looks like the line is climbing. In the middle distance past the cabin, the line is flanked on both side by trees, and further ahead the hills rise, with no obvious way through without a tunnel. So based on these I would say we are just north of Steele Road, looking towards this copse of trees, here. https://www.google.com/maps/dir//55.2379915,-2.7421488/@55.2376903,-2.7417318,469m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0 No, the telegraph poles north of Steele Road were on the Up side so it cannot be a train climbing away from there - for anyone who has 'Never Again', refer to pages 170 & 171 of Volume 1. Although I didn't know Kenneth half as well as Bruce, I think I knew him well enough to endorse what Bruce has written in his fine obituary for Kenneth. I'm just glad that he was able to attend the 50th anniversary of closure event in Stow on the 5th of this month, which I'm sure he thoroughly enjoyed, albeit he undoubtedly still felt as keen a sense of injustice as anybody at Hawick having been severed from the railway network. Bill 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted January 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20, 2019 I think Bill and Richard hit the nail on the head, with the train heading towards Langburnshiels on the approach to Shankend. Here's a comparison shot, with a crop of the photo posted above and one from my collection, albeit a slightly different perspective hence the cottage being out of shot in the one with the loco. Yes I can see that now - I could have saved myself the bother if I had read Bill's comment about telepgraph poles in #2218 correctly.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollyyoko Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I am looking for some assistance to verify if class 20's [ Green pre tops] ever ran over the Waverley Route. I have trolled through most of topics within the thread and various books on the Route/ Scottish railways but have not been able to find any evidence. I therefore assume that they must have been very rare over this particular route although numerous over most other Scottish routes. Can any forum members come up with any documented evidence/photos of these locos working over the line or was there a particular reason for their absence. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, pollyyoko said: I am looking for some assistance to verify if class 20's [ Green pre tops] ever ran over the Waverley Route. I have trolled through most of topics within the thread and various books on the Route/ Scottish railways but have not been able to find any evidence. I therefore assume that they must have been very rare over this particular route although numerous over most other Scottish routes. Can any forum members come up with any documented evidence/photos of these locos working over the line or was there a particular reason for their absence. Thanks There are records of very few EE Type 1s appearing at Hawick, which have provenance in their derivation from observers' notes taken at the time. They were not at all common, and it has been suggested that some were only noted during delivery runs to Eastern Scottish sheds including Aberdeen and Haymarket. This is most likely true of the cluster of high numbered D83XX in blue that were allocated to Haymarket from 1967 (noted were D8317-9/23/4). The pair of green examples known to have visited Hawick are reputedly D8006 and D8080. Several more worked to Langholm and as far as Newcastleton on the target trip freight from Carlisle Kingmoor. These locos appear to be a mixture of LMR examples and 'borrowed' Polmadie engines, diesel having replaced steam for the last couple of years of the Langholm branch's existence. Obviously no TOPS numbered traction ever traversed the route pre-closure. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62440 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 D8323 passed LE through Hawick 23/10/67 towards Edinburgh. D8317+D8324+D8318 passed through Hawick 15/11/67 towards Edinburgh at 3.48am. Extract from late KA Gray's notes. Bruce 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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