Waverley Route new image links and discussion

[Pennine MC]

Just gone back over these links and have never seen a 1160hp / class 24 with the arrows on the cab doors before. Are you suggesting that 5062 and 5068 were the only two like it Ian ?

 

 

I'd be *reasonably* confident they were the only disc ones Phil, but a few of the IS ones acquired that style also (possibly at Inverurie?), and also of course some of the 29s. Definitely a Scottish thing anyway

 

On the subject of 27s, that Chard touched on in the green Peak thread, they dont seem to have been at all common on the Waverley (no doubt because HA never had any while the line was open), and I dont think I've ever seen a picture. The regular RO correspondent does however note occasional subs by ED ones from the Carlisle end, plus in around 1964/65 there were a series of crew training runs over the southern end using Glasgow-based 20s coupled to LMR 27s (which were known to be used on Anglo-Scottish freights at that time)

['CHARD]

Opening today's account with this people shot that is the counterpart to the scan of Bruce McC's letter from Edinburgh agreeing to the brakevan trip on the last Kelso:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22937

 

More gut-wrenching nostalgia from the freight-only period:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22883

 

The Paper Train? No pilot, but a booked 64B BFYE 26, at Flex cutting, latterly a popular photographic spot:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22892

 

Demolition train, Burnfoot, headed by a smouldering Clayton, and not in the romantic sense

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=23063

 

This morning's highlight and discussion shot, it's another Blue Brush 4, in another livery, and with a steam style headcode - look, you'll see what I mean:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22962

EDIT: contrary to the caption, this is bBFYE D1958, this batch of locos being common performers on their real patch between Carlisle and Glasgow on a variety of traffics, but notably Freightliner services (none of which were diverted over the WR, due to gauging issues).

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

[millerhillboy]

Opening today's account with this people shot that is the counterpart to the scan of Bruce McC's letter from Edinburgh agreeing to the brakevan trip on the last Kelso:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22937

 

Love the 64A gronk close-up there....

 

Also would love to see some photographic evidence of 27 action on the route as well, I've never seen anything either.

 

Good work 'Chard. Most enjoyable viewing.

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

[Leander]

The leading PMV looks like an LMS 4 Wheel Motor Car Van (Diag. 2026)'Chard.

 

Parkside Dundas produce a 4mm kit: Product Code PC40. According to the blurb on their website, "The LMS constructed 150 of these vans in 1938, with a further 75 by BR in the 1950s. They were a development of the diag. 1929 vans (our PC33 kit) and many lasted into the late 1970s with a few surviving in the Service".

 

Pete

['CHARD]

The leading PMV looks like an LMS 4 Wheel Motor Car Van (Diag. 2026)'Chard.

 

Parkside Dundas produce a 4mm kit: Product Code PC40. According to the blurb on their website, "The LMS constructed 150 of these vans in 1938, with a further 75 by BR in the 1950s. They were a development of the diag. 1929 vans (our PC33 kit) and many lasted into the late 1970s with a few surviving in the Service".

 

Pete

Nice one, thanks Pete. Seems as if there's one definite area where exotica is writ large on Waverley workings, and this is the intense parcels traffic, much as I thought. Seems as though that's the place where not just the new Hornby Hawksworth BG but also the kit market's got a part to play, cheers for the details!

[Pennine MC]

 

This morning's highlight and discussion shot, it's another Blue Brush 4, in another livery, and with a steam style headcode - look, you'll see what I mean:

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=22962

 

And misidentified to boot, as I guess you realised - it pound-to-a-pinch-of-snuff wont be D1968, but I could believe it would be D1958, one of those delivered in blue

['CHARD]

And misidentified to boot, as I guess you realised - it pound-to-a-pinch-of-snuff wont be D1968, but I could believe it would be D1958, one of those delivered in blue

Indeed, and I've had a dialogue off-line about this shot with the photographer

 

The train was diverted from the Carstairs line and appeared on the scene with some haste, probably unexpectedly, I think it's fair to say. As is well known, many of the guys out capturing the twilight of the Waverley had a social context in mind rather than recording numbers. Type 4 and single BG passed Riccarton at line speed, ahem, and a cursory glimpse of the number was 'what a coincidence, that's the same number as the year!'

 

1968 was a Haymarket loco but she was green at this date, well documented in all sorts of ways, and the likeliest explanation is that this is D1958, one of the handful of locos delivered new from Brush in blue. That's what she'll become when she reaches my W/B.

[50A55B]

but what is this:

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=22765

Green, full yellow end, centre glass panel Class 45, red 55A shedplate?

I reckon the 'red' shedplate is probably tangerine. This was a feature of locos from ex. NER depots at the time, which seems to have sprung up after the merger with the ER (see 2113 in the 03s at Scarborough thread for another example). A mini rebellion perhaps!

Thanks for digging these late peroid Waverly images out, great stuff.

['CHARD]

I reckon the 'red' shedplate is probably tangerine. This was a feature of locos from ex. NER depots at the time, which seems to have sprung up after the merger with the ER (see 2113 in the 03s at Scarborough thread for another example). A mini rebellion perhaps!

Thanks for digging these late peroid Waverly images out, great stuff.

Now that's an incredible detail I had no knowledge of. That's very useful in narrowing the loco i.d. down too. Apart from Gateshead, what other depots to which Peaks were allocated would this apply, York?

[Jim49]

'Chard, thanks for finding all these photos for us, they're marvellous.

Re the "Thirsty Clayton taking water at Carstairs", is it not more likely that the driver is trying to put out the fire?

 

Jim

['CHARD]

Jim, I'm so pleased that you and others are enjoying them, I can't take any credit; it just seemed to me that as I was trawling the net, and RailScot is a big resource-room right now, I may as well convert my note-taking into links.

 

It's completely selfish of course, because I love eliciting comments and reminiscences from the floor! So basically thanks to all you guys and moreover, the photogaphers (no names for fear of embarrassment).

[50A55B]

Now that's an incredible detail I had no knowledge of. That's very useful in narrowing the loco i.d. down too. Apart from Gateshead, what other depots to which Peaks were allocated would this apply, York?

Holbeck was the other ex. NER depot with a Peak allocation at the time. York didn't have a Peak allocation until the late 70s, and then for a relatively short time.

There is a photo somewhere on the web of a couple of class 46 cabs at Derby with tangerine 55A shed codes. I also have seen photos of tangerine backed codes on York 20s, Healey Mills 40s and (possibly) Gateshead Deltic 9017.

Getting back on topic, I would expect Holbeck Peaks to be far more common on the Waverley route than Gateshead ones.

[Tim Lewis]

Not seen the Britrail site before, so thanks for posting. Not looked through all of them yet, but there's some very interesting stuff in the ones that you have provided links for. I've never seen a picture of any of the Hawick N2s before (there weren't many, and IIRC most of the allocation was in the 1930s, with (I think) only 69510 in BR days, the details are in the RCTS green book). This could be a good excuse to run an N2 through Coldstream (although I suspect it never worked the Tweed Valley line). The picture of City of Truro by the border sign says it is the late 1950s: no reason to disbelieve this, but it was also stored in the disused engine shed at Sprouston (on the Tweed Valley) during World War 2.

 

Great stuff!

['CHARD]

Holbeck was the other ex. NER depot with a Peak allocation at the time. York didn't have a Peak allocation until the late 70s, and then for a relatively short time.

There is a photo somewhere on the web of a couple of class 46 cabs at Derby with tangerine 55A shed codes. I also have seen photos of tangerine backed codes on York 20s, Healey Mills 40s and (possibly) Gateshead Deltic 9017.

Getting back on topic, I would expect Holbeck Peaks to be far more common on the Waverley route than Gateshead ones.

I remember the YK 45s from late '70s Locoshed books now you mention it.

 

During the diesel era Waverley route, Holbeck's Peaks were statistically more frequent performers on the Class 1 trains and their diagramming reflected this (anecdotally split-box locos were the type most often seen); the Gateshead ones would seemingly also get involved from the Haymarket end, after, during or between East Coast duties.

 

Class by class though, a greater proportion of 46s worked the route in whole or part compared to the 45s. I haven't checked fully but the twin-centre panel 45s were probably the least well-represented variant over the line, these may have spent proportionally more time working NE-SW or East Midlands - London services. I'll look at depot allocations when time permits. [EDIT] from data of locos known to have worked the WR, twin-centre panel Peaks were in fact the most well represented over the full duration, but seemingly the least recorded in photographs.

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

['CHARD]

Here's ten for New Year's Eve, focusing on steam and locations of interest:

 

4MT 43121? near Harker on a down freight, presumably for Longtown, Langholm and Newcastleton given the motive power. This location looks suspiciously like where the crusading M6 now ruins the ambience. Check out coach parked on left:

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=18307

 

60079 at Hawick, bread & butter Waverley

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=19295

 

Never seen this before, the enigmatic Lochpark Engineers' Depot south of Hawick. Wonder what this brooding tenement looks out onto these days?

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=19716

 

Roxburgh branch with B1 61324

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=20723

 

Three of 60532 - passing Gorebridge, note lifted goods yard

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=21520

the Hawick photostop - 8th October 1966

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=21519

and passing Canal Jct

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=21544

 

Two of 76050 on the Roxburgh branch

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=22623

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=22302

 

And last for now, appropritely, was this the last steam of all? 43049 at Easter 1967 approaching Kershopefoot with the Newcastleton pick-up freight.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=22999

[Bernard Lamb]

Many thanks for posting these links. Only just found time to have a good browse through them. Some fascinating stuff. I do like the one of Blue Peter at Gorebridge. A station that did seem to be very camera shy. Seeing it was in the middle of a coal mine that's hardly surprising.

Bernard

[Trevor H]

??¦or a 26 shunting coal and shellfish traffic on the penultimate day:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=26157

 

That??™s all for now, it??™s turkey time! Enjoy!!!

 

Hi Chard,

 

Only just come over.

 

Thanks for the links, as mentioned Railbrit always seems a bit awkard to follow.

 

Love the shot of 5511 on the Waverley, would love to find some pics of it on the West Highland though.

 

My Particular favourite is this shot, which is 5335 still with it's white embelishments and class 27 engineroom door fitted.

 

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=26157

 

Trevor.

['CHARD]

Many thanks for posting these links. Only just found time to have a good browse through them. Some fascinating stuff. I do like the one of Blue Peter at Gorebridge. A station that did seem to be very camera shy. Seeing it was in the middle of a coal mine that's hardly surprising.

Bernard

Gorebridge has an enigmatic quality it's true. Far from ignored by the photographer in the line's dying days it had always been less well served than it might have been, given its proximity to Edinburgh. One would have thought that commuter trains would terminate here in the morning peak and start here in the evening, but the sole example of this appeared to do so only for reasons of operational convenience. From memory, the W/T/T shows the latter day DMU setting down here then heading out to Borthwick to kill time before returning to Edinburgh. Seeing a Gloucester or Met-Camm sitting there halfway up the hillside would have been surreal to say the least!

 

EDIT: here's one for Millerhill Boy, D760X passing through Gorebridge in a picture oozing the ebbing lifeblood of the dying line: http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=17882

 

Immediately north-west of Gorebridge the line passed over the A7 on what must have been a very impressive stone arch. I have very dim memories of it, but the road improvements and easing of the gradient here all but obliterated the solum of the line way back in the 1980s. If anyone has any more info on this rail over road bridge I would be very interested to see it.

['CHARD]

My Particular favourite is this shot, which is 5335 still with it's white embelishments and class 27 engineroom door fitted.

 

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=26157

 

Trevor.

Trevor, I see what you mean about the refugee door on 5335! I absolutely love the idea that shellfish traffic was generated at Buckie. I only got into the Moray Coast line after buying the recent book 'Discovering Scotland's Lost Railways,' when I fell in love with it. I assume that the Fish Vans were forwarded via Aberdeen and a proportion at least would find their way over the Waverley in fitted consists bound for Kingmoor. Plainly this traffic would have struggled after May '68 and consequently been lost to road. Another example of how paring back the branches affected the health of the system as a whole.

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

[Stuart]

Talking about Waverley route exotica, (well, I think somebody said exotica), what about the Mixed train?

Scanning through some recently acquired WTTs, I found a reference to a Mixed train which I have never seen mentioned or photographed.

In the 1961/62 book, there is an unadvertised Class 2 train 8.0am SX Newcastleton to Hawick, stopping everywhere including Whitrope Siding.

By Summer 1963, that train is not in the WTT but the 6.50am Class 4 freight Carlisle to Niddrie West is shown as an unadvertised Class 2 Mixed Train from Riccarton at 7.53am to Hawick arriving 8.19.

In the 1965-66 (passenger)and winter 1965-66 (Freight) it's 4S43 6.30am Carlisle - Craiginches which is shown as running as "Mixed Train Class 2 Riccarton to Hawick" departing Riccarton 7.53am, arriving Hawick 8.19am (and taking water until 8.40am).

Was this to take schoolchildren in to Hawick?

Anybody any idea what stock was used?

How was it returned to Carlisle?

 

There's no mention in the 1967-68 book so obviously finished by then

 

Stuart

['CHARD]

Learn this much about 'Chard, he can be a right selfish so-and-so. The only reason this link is being put up now, is that a three-fifty has appeared on the W/B and this is the reference shot:

 

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=17970

 

WOW! January 1967, BLUE shunter at Kelso!!!! Check out the new-looking housing at left too.

 

Looking at this pic, the lack of lifting eyes on the buffer beam of the jocko struck me. The early position of the double arrow is a great era definer too.

[Guest Phil]

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=17970

 

WOW! January 1967, BLUE shunter at Kelso!!!! Check out the new-looking housing at left too.

 

Looking at this pic, the lack of lifting eyes on the buffer beam of the jocko struck me. The early position of the double arrow is a great era definer too.

 

Red rods and cranks too - when was the change to yellow ?

And how many jockos didn't have the lifting "holes" ? Is it deffo an "08" or something obscure like a "10", but in BR blue ?

 

Not an expert on jockos but I thought all the "08"s and "09"s had the holes in the buffer beam.

 

Another good find 'Chard and full marks for correct railwayology for "jocko" sometimes "jacko" !!!

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

['CHARD]

Another good find 'Chard and full marks for correct railwayology for "jocko" sometimes "jacko" !!!

Phil, I don't know quite what I've unleashed here. There are so many deviant details relating to this particular shunter I could have begun another thread. I know instantly that I slimmed down my 08s by one too many though, because my remaining specimen has additional tool boxes. The Kelso one has no hinge strapping, I need to check the Leith Central and Hawick allocations - which I shall do once I can brave the cold in the garage

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

[Pennine MC]

Red rods and cranks too - when was the change to yellow ?

 

Officially, with blue livery Conversely, many green ones acquired yellow rods and/or bufferbeams

 

Is it deffo an "08" or something obscure like a "10", but in BR blue ?

 

 

It wont be a cl.10, not there, and only two or three of those acquired blue; conversely (I like that word), Glasgow seemed to be pretty smart at repainting 08s in that style, even late build ones like D3877 in this shot

[Bernard Lamb]

Gorebridge has an enigmatic quality it's true. One would have thought that commuter trains would terminate here in the morning peak and start here in the evening, but the sole example of this appeared to do so only for reasons of operational convenience.

 

Would there have been very much commuter traffic back in the 1960s?

as a mining village I would have thought that most of the population would have been employed locally. That seemed to be the case in several mining villages in the district. (Family knowledge comes from nearer the coast at port Seaton and Cockenzie, where almost all of the working population was involve in mining or fishing.) It was only after the closing of the pits that houses in Gorebridge were sought after by commuters, as affordable house nearer the city became too expensive for a lot of people. If the railway could have survived for just a few more years it would have become a viable line. Ironic ain't it. Sorry getting too involved in social history.

Bernard