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'CHARD

Waverley Route new image links and discussion

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I shouldn't be doing this as it's giving away parts of the book each time I do, but here's a snippet about 20s & 27s on the Waverley Route:

 

".... and the 1250hp class 27s were extremely rare, with very few recorded instances of workings on the line, and even less photographic evidence of such occurrences. Training runs took place with class 27s D5384, D5411, D5382 and D5387 from Cricklewood West & Leicester Midland depots in April & May 1964, each double headed with class 20s D8074, D8070 (twice) and D8122 from Eastfield & Polmadie."

 

Any use to anyone asking about 20s & 27s?

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I'd always assumed it was simply a typo. [Edit: in the book, that is]

 

Yes, there could be many reasons for this error in the book, eg mis-identification, mis-recording, mis-transcription, typo etc.  Which is why, if I'm intending to have a model of a particular loco or whatever, I like to have at least 2 reliable sources to confirm it or at least a clearly definitive photo.  In the same book, at image 37, the picture of a junction station claims to be Riddings but is actually Burnmouth on the ECML, an error perpetuated in at least one other book.  And in Robert Leslie's "Steam on the Waverley Route" (Bradford Barton), the pic of an A3 on page 33 is captioned as 60095 Flamingo, whereas the smokebox numberplate clearly shows 60079 (Bayardo)....

 

Alasdair

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Yes, there could be many reasons for this error in the book, eg mis-identification, mis-recording, mis-transcription, typo etc.  Which is why, if I'm intending to have a model of a particular loco or whatever, I like to have at least 2 reliable sources to confirm it or at least a clearly definitive photo.  In the same book, at image 37, the picture of a junction station claims to be Riddings but is actually Burnmouth on the ECML, an error perpetuated in at least one other book.  And in Robert Leslie's "Steam on the Waverley Route" (Bradford Barton), the pic of an A3 on page 33 is captioned as 60095 Flamingo, whereas the smokebox numberplate clearly shows 60079 (Bayardo)....

 

Alasdair

 

 

Problems with typos like that are because the person doing the proof reading doesn't know what they're looking at. So if the person who originally typed it got it wrong then the whole thing has simply slipped past two people (or more ) who have no real idea what they were looking at.

 

For people who know how to ID a loco there's several easy differences between a 26 & 27 front end. For people who simply look and think a zero looks like an eight it throws the whole class thing into doubt and gives rise to queries like yours. Editors beware!

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Gents, many thanks for your further replies.

 

Regards

 

Mark

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Anent Class 27 D5383: I have a copy of a list of diesel locomotives recorded at Hawick, which I got via the Hawick & District Railway Society, and that does include D5383.  However – in Roger Siviter’s book “Waverley – Portrait of a Famous Route” at image 62 there is a picture of a BRCW Type 2 on a Down passenger approaching Riccarton South and the caption claims it’s D5383.  But I contend that this is definitely not D5383, because the loco has headcode discs rather than the 4-character headcode box carried by the 27s.  The loco number is not clear, but I suggest that this is actually Class 26 D5303, essentially because the position of the cab front lamp-irons is particular to D5300-03.  Perhaps some-one has seen this caption and made the reasonable assumption that a Down train passing Riccarton would have duly appeared at Hawick, and thus perpetuated the error.  Does anyone have more conclusive proof of D5383 at Hawick ?

 

Alasdair

 

I would have thought it rather unlikely that any of those involved in putting the Hawick list together would have confused a class 26 with a 27 but, that said, I certainly wouldn't rule the typo out as a possible explanation for the appearance of D5383 in the list, and I would suggest that it does put a question mark against it. I will email Kenneth Gray to see whether he can shed any light on the matter. Incidentally I've had the Roger Siviter book for about 30 years and I had never noticed the error before!

 

Bill

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Bill,

Does your list show dates and details of trains worked by class 27's over the Waverley Route?

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

Afraid not. Mark, it's just a straightforward list in numerical order.

 

Bill

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Afraid not. Mark, it's just a straightforward list in numerical order.

 

Bill

Ok thanks Bill.

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I shouldn't be doing this as it's giving away parts of the book each time I do, but here's a snippet about 20s & 27s on the Waverley Route:

 

".... and the 1250hp class 27s were extremely rare, with very few recorded instances of workings on the line, and even less photographic evidence of such occurrences. Training runs took place with class 27s D5384, D5411, D5382 and D5387 from Cricklewood West & Leicester Midland depots in April & May 1964, each double headed with class 20s D8074, D8070 (twice) and D8122 from Eastfield & Polmadie."

 

Any use to anyone asking about 20s & 27s?

Thanks Matt.

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I have a few photos of Class 27 possibly on the Waverley route.

 

post-19218-0-01727700-1547130848.jpg

 

Here is D5407 on a southbound freight 4M91 crossing the Waverley bridge over the river Eden, near the entrance to the closed Canal shed in Carlisle in January 1964. Does anyone have any details for 4M91? The loco was officially allocated to Leicester at the time.

 

post-19218-0-34326300-1547130866.jpg

 

A few minutes later a brand new Clayton D8569 passed by heading north to Edinburgh Haymarket which is where the loco was initially allocated.

 

post-19218-0-92701700-1547130895.jpg

 

The final photo is D5404 entering Carlisle station pulling a failed? DMU in April/May 1966. Again the headcode shows 4M91 so I presume the unit failed and the Class 27 was taken off a freight. The loco was officially allocated to Nottingham division at the time.

 

I presume the locos had worked north from Leeds and Kingmoor had 'borrowed' them to work freights to Edinburgh

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I have a few photos of Class 27 possibly on the Waverley route.

 

attachicon.gifGH013_29_20160426_0064_800_wm.jpg

 

Here is D5407 on a southbound freight 4M91 crossing the Waverley bridge over the river Eden, near the entrance to the closed Canal shed in Carlisle in January 1964. Does anyone have any details for 4M91? The loco was officially allocated to Leicester at the time.

 

attachicon.gifGH013_31_20160426_0066_800_wm.jpg

 

A few minutes later a brand new Clayton D8569 passed by heading north to Edinburgh Haymarket which is where the loco was initially allocated.

 

attachicon.gifGH011_32_20160423_0060_800_wm.jpg

 

The final photo is D5404 entering Carlisle station pulling a failed? DMU in April/May 1966. Again the headcode shows 4M91 so I presume the unit failed and the Class 27 was taken off a freight. The loco was officially allocated to Nottingham division at the time.

 

I presume the locos had worked north from Leeds and Kingmoor had 'borrowed' them to work freights to Edinburgh

 

Wow!!!!  Thanks for posting these very interesting shots!  While the Clayton is probably self-explanatory (check out the recent tracklifting in the foreground too!), the others take some working out....

 

The train behind D5407 includes engineers' wagons (at least one Sturgeon), and I wonder if that has originated at Kingmoor Yard and is heading for another local yard, perhaps Durranhill or London Road, via the NB goods lines west of the city.

 

The dead DMU is possibly a rescued passenger working or could be in the process of being dragged to Upperby for attention.  We really could do with getting formal identity of what 4M91 was though, as it is unfamiliar to me from latterday Waverley workings.

 

EDIT: here goes: '4M91 16:03 Carlisle-Washwood Heath' 

Edited by 'CHARD
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I have a few photos of Class 27 possibly on the Waverley route.

 

attachicon.gifGH013_29_20160426_0064_800_wm.jpg

 

Here is D5407 on a southbound freight 4M91 crossing the Waverley bridge over the river Eden, near the entrance to the closed Canal shed in Carlisle in January 1964. Does anyone have any details for 4M91? The loco was officially allocated to Leicester at the time.

 

attachicon.gifGH013_31_20160426_0066_800_wm.jpg

 

A few minutes later a brand new Clayton D8569 passed by heading north to Edinburgh Haymarket which is where the loco was initially allocated.

 

attachicon.gifGH011_32_20160423_0060_800_wm.jpg

 

The final photo is D5404 entering Carlisle station pulling a failed? DMU in April/May 1966. Again the headcode shows 4M91 so I presume the unit failed and the Class 27 was taken off a freight. The loco was officially allocated to Nottingham division at the time.

 

I presume the locos had worked north from Leeds and Kingmoor had 'borrowed' them to work freights to Edinburgh

Excellent - many thanks for posting these photos and more please.

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Brilliant photos!

 

Regards

 

Guy

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Any suggestions for where the second photo was taken?  My first thought was the southern approach to Shankendshiel but looking at a couple of other photos I'm not so sure now. That wood on the hilltop is very distinctive but I can't place it.  It's probably very obvious where it is, could someone please put me out of my misery.

 

Richard

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Any suggestions for where the second photo was taken?  My first thought was the southern approach to Shankendshiel but looking at a couple of other photos I'm not so sure now. That wood on the hilltop is very distinctive but I can't place it.  It's probably very obvious where it is, could someone please put me out of my misery.

 

Richard

 

My first thought was the climb up Liddesdale towards Steele Road, but admittedly, I'm less sure now.  I'll seek counsel....

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My first thought was the climb up Liddesdale towards Steele Road, but admittedly, I'm less sure now.  I'll seek counsel....

 

That was my second thought.  It's a bit far to drive up for a look, and there will be a lot more forestry by now to confuse things.

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That was my second thought.  It's a bit far to drive up for a look, and there will be a lot more forestry by now to confuse things.

 

The forestry is a wee bit of a curse in certain parts of the route, that;'s for sure.  It has completely destroyed the almost eerie windswept emptiness between Whitrope and Riccarton (not to mention the climb up from Steele Road), transfusing it with an equally sinister claustrophobia. 

 

The agri-business has literally transformed the railway-as-part-of-the-landscape aspect that is part of the old line's charm, to such an extent that the original atmosphere is impossible to recapture for several miles.  Your chosen layout location at Stobs is far more variegated, even today, with a generous mix of evergreen and deciduous woodland, not to mention the bleak angularity of the old military camp site (I know, I visited again briefly last Saturday  :angel:  ).

Edited by 'CHARD
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Any suggestions for where the second photo was taken?  My first thought was the southern approach to Shankendshiel but looking at a couple of other photos I'm not so sure now. That wood on the hilltop is very distinctive but I can't place it.  It's probably very obvious where it is, could someone please put me out of my misery.

 

Richard

 

I would tend to agree with your first thought - is that white house on the right not Wyndburgh Cottage at Langburnshiels? - see https://www.onthemarket.com/details/1048239/

 

The telegraph poles are on the correct side for it being on the descent from Whitrope in either direction, but the scattering of plantations seems more typical of that towards Shankend as it was in the 1960s.

 

Bill

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The forestry is a wee bit of a curse in certain parts of the route, that;'s for sure.  It has completely destroyed the almost eerie windswept emptiness between Whitrope and Riccarton (not to mention the climb up from Steele Road), transfusing it with an equally sinister claustrophobia. 

 

The agri-business has literally transformed the railway-as-part-of-the-landscape aspect that is part of the old line's charm, to such an extent that the original atmosphere is impossible to recapture for several miles.  Your chosen layout location at Stobs is far more variegated, even today, with a generous mix of evergreen and deciduous woodland, not to mention the bleak angularity of the old military camp site (I know, I visited again briefly last Saturday  :angel:  ).

 

The lack of scenic breaks make almost every WR station unmodellable even in N gauge unless you have a ridiculous amount of space.  Stobs is unusual being hemmed in by woodland: I still have to cheat, but not too much.  Imagine trying to model Steele Road and its approaches.  

 

I'm feeling a bit Waverley this evening: one of the local supermarkets is stocking that iconic Scottish delicacy, tablet. Time to put the "Railway to Riccarton" LP on the turntable...

 

Richard

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Saddened to post this news on the thread, but I feel it is where it belongs, as so much of our source material is down to this one man. 

 

I received a note from Bruce McCartney yesterday evening to let me know that esteemed Hawick photographer Kenneth Gray has passed away.  The name won't be too familiar to the general audience, but may be to participants on here through the wealth of photographs of the Waverley Route which we are fortunate to have, and access to which has been made so easy via the Railscot site.  My thanks go to Kenneth for creating this wonderful legacy, and to the fellow Borderers and Teris who aided and abetted his photographic habit in the last decade of the line we love so dearly.

 

Respecting copyright, I won't and can't reproduce images here, but I can post links in the time-honoured tradition.  

 

Rest in peace Mr K.A.Gray, you have enriched many lives with what may have seemed a pastime half a century and more ago, it's a fitting tribute that this archive will continue to provide so much enjoyment to new generations of railway devotees; may our thoughts be with his friends and family at this sad time.

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/24/467/

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/30/904/

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/35/147/

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/35/67/

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/38/756/

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/32/92/

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Thank you 'Chard.

 

May I just add a little?

 

Relaxed, sitting in his well-worn armchair in Hawick, stroking my Border Terrier's ear, Kenneth said to me: "You know, I like to think that perhaps when being pushed in my pram in Hawick, I actually saw an NBR Atlantic."

 

Bruce.

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Thank you 'Chard.

 

May I just add a little?

 

Relaxed, sitting in his well-worn armchair in Hawick, stroking my Border Terrier's ear, Kenneth said to me: "You know, I like to think that perhaps when being pushed in my pram in Hawick, I actually saw an NBR Atlantic."

 

Bruce.

 

That's a wonderful thought, isn't it.  

 

It made me access this, and furthered my study, this time into those fine locomotives:  https://www.lner.info/locos/C/c10c11.php

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5303/5383.

If the loco in the picture has oval buffers then that would point to it being 5303 possibly.

EE type 1 appearances.

I would imagine some of these would be replacements for those well known bastions of reliability, the Claytons, and maybe weren't recorded?

 

Mike.

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Reading this sad news sent me to Railscot where I have spent an hour gorging myself on Waverley Route photographs. I can only echo 'Chard's sentiments.

 

I think I have just found my perfect all-time favourite WR photo: sadly not one of Mr Gray's, and it may have been featured here already, but just imagine the sound.  

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/22/970/

 

Richard

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That's a fine obituary, and we are so lucky to have such an amazing quantity of photographs from Mr Gray.

 

Returning, if I may, to the 'mystery' photograph in #2212, it appears in the sequence between Carlisle and Hawick, and is heading north. Given the departure time 1944 ex Carlisle, we are probably looking at around 2030 to travel the 30 miles or so needed for this kind of scenery. The fading light would have been falling on the wayside cabin ahead from almost due West at this time of year, so it seems the train is moving round a curve from a NNW direction to a NNE direction, and it looks like the line is climbing. In the middle distance past the cabin, the line is flanked on both side by trees, and further ahead the hills rise, with no obvious way through without a tunnel.

 

So based on these I would say we are just north of Steele Road, looking towards this copse of trees, here.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir//55.2379915,-2.7421488/@55.2376903,-2.7417318,469m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

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