New Farish Class 55

[oreamnos]

Roy et. al., per the following photos, I can attest that the DP1 and new Class 55 have completely different bogies.  The DP1 bogies have a noticeably longer wheelbase and are better moulded, too.

 

 

 

 

I spent some time comparing my DP1 and Pinza (for a model I am returning, it sure has been photographed a lot!).  I'm left with the impression that relative to DP1, Bachmann cut some corners (not in a big way, but you can tell if you look) on the Class 55.  DP1 is simply a stunning model, no two ways about it.  And the bogie gap that has been discussed is small and tidy.  I could not tell if the wheels of DP1 and the new Class 55 are the same diameter or not.  If they aren't, they are quite close.

 

Finally, a comparison shot of Pinza and the new Dapol Western.  They're completely different animals, I know, and each has their fans.  I'm actually not a big fan of either, so don't have much in the way of bias, and when I compare the two, purely from the perspective of which is better at accurately capturing the essence of the prototype, the model Western does so IMHO by some margin.

 

 

Matt

[DJM Dave]

I have my first squinty Deltic now and apart from the squint looks lovely.

 

However I noted the bogies and thought they must be wrong, mine look as though the wheel centre doesn't line up with 2 axle boxes per bogie either, and the bogie to body gap is very obtrusive.

 

Can anyone shed light on this or are mine and oreamnos's models just simply rogues?

 

Cheers

Dave

[Roy L S]

Hi Matt

 

I think that is actually quite reassuring as there were I believe a number of differences between DP1 and the production Deltics.

 

When you look at the wheels relative to the body of each they are positioned very similarly. Is it therefore simply the case that the bogies on the production Deltics sat differently to the prototype as well as being different in detail?

 

I can't disagree that the DP1 is a truly stunning model (and sadly one I do not own....yet).

 

Regards

 

Roy

[oreamnos]

I have my first squinty Deltic now and apart from the squint looks lovely.

 

However I noted the bogies and thought they must be wrong, mine look as though the wheel centre doesn't line up with 2 axle boxes per bogie either, and the bogie to body gap is very obtrusive.

 

Can anyone shed light on this or are mine and oreamnos's models just simply rogues?

 

Cheers

Dave

 

I've been comparing DP1 and the new Farish 55 to th Graham Fenn drawings in "British Rail Main Line Diesel Locomotives."  The chief reason for doing so is because while I feel the body of the new 55 is excellent, I've felt bogies are way off.  Having had some time now to reflect on things, the bogies have been the chief reason I've been put off the new model.

 

Bachmann did a superb job on the bogies of DP1 at least when compared to the Fenn drawing of it.  Their location relative the body, size and design are spot on.  Even the body/bogie gap is darn close.  The only thing Bachmann compromised on is the wheel diameter, which is noticeably smaller than prototype.  I appreciate they are smaller than prototype so the wheels won't interfere with the body on curves.

 

The Fenn drawings clearly indicate that the Class 55 bogies are different from DP1.  They also indicate that the bogie/body gap on the 55 was actually slightly larger than the gap on DP1, so good for Bachmann for getting that right.  However, the top of the bogie side frames should also be level with the top of the part of the center tanks that bulges out below the indent above it (hope that makes sense).  Here, the Bachmann bogies are a bit low.  The side frames are also too narrow top to bottom.  The tops of the wheels should be hidden by the bottom of the body, but the wheels are like those of DP1 and are markedly too small, for the same reason.  The bogies of the 55 model also should be slightly further outboard and closer to the end of the body than they are.

 

All in all, I do think Bachmann have done a creditable job on the 55 bogies given the clearances and tolerances but given that the company has shown it can do even better with DP1, the bogies of the 55 are a bit disappointing and are certainly IMHO the weakest part of the new 55 model.  The way the axle boxes are too low and don't line up with the wheel centers is actually pretty bad, and I would have thought the bogie side frames could have been made a bit bigger top to bottom and still have plenty of clearance given Bachmann was happy to leave less clearance on DP1.

 

Anyhow, my Pinza is going back.  It's a nice model and I will probably re-assess the purchase of one (or more) of these at some point, especially if others report that the off-center axle boxes are not evident on their models, indicating that I (and Dave) just got poorly assembled ones.

 

Matt

[DJM Dave]

Hi Matt

 

I think that is actually quite reassuring as there were I believe a number of differences between DP1 and the production Deltics.

 

When you look at the wheels relative to the body of each they are positioned very similarly. Is it therefore simply the case that the bogies on the production Deltics sat differently to the prototype as well as being different in detail?

 

I can't disagree that the DP1 is a truly stunning model (and sadly one I do not own....yet).

 

Regards

 

Roy

Go on Roy, get one, you know you want to! ;-)

 

I've got one and have never run it as I don't need one to run, but it just looks soooooooo good.

Cheers

Dave

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

I agree the gap between lower bodysides and upper bogie frames is too pronounced; but I feel the bogie is the right wheelbase and in the right position lengthways. According to drawings I have the bogie wheelbase is 13'6, which equates to 27.8mm in 1:148 scale, while the bogie centres are 45', equating to 92.7mm. When I measured the model for review, these dimensions were accurate to within the limits of my measuring error.

 

DP1 is a superb model, but it is shorter than the production Deltics and the bogies are closer together. This means that on curves they do not need to pivot to the same degree, and so are less likely to foul the body. Although it's only millimetres (or less!) I suspect the designers of the production class 55 decided to "play it safe" - after all, a mass produced RTR item needs to be able to cope with uneven track work, set-track reverse curves, unprototypical changes of gradient etc etc.

 

There is a reason that curves and gradients are so much gentler on the real thing than our models!

 

If for you the compromises are too severe then of course that's entirely your choice; but I think maybe we need to be realistic in our expectations.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[Dr Al]

 

The Fenn drawings clearly indicate that the Class 55 bogies are different from DP1.  They also indicate that the bogie/body gap on the 55 was actually slightly larger than the gap on DP1, so good for Bachmann for getting that right.  However, the top of the bogie side frames should also be level with the top of the part of the center tanks that bulges out below the indent above it (hope that makes sense).  Here, the Bachmann bogies are a bit low.  The side frames are also too narrow top to bottom.  The tops of the wheels should be hidden by the bottom of the body, but the wheels are like those of DP1 and are markedly too small, for the same reason.  The bogies of the 55 model also should be slightly further outboard and closer to the end of the body than they are.

 

As the one who's spent the most amount of time looking at this, do you think a set of replacement bogie sideframes (3D printed or whatever) would sort out the majority of these issues? And if so is there an opportunity for a small supplier to come to the rescue in due course with an upgrade? It seems like from what's been said the bogie wheelbase and position are ok, just the cosmetics that aren't - which is basically the sideframe.

 

Were the 55 and 37 bogies the same in real life? If so, could a 37 frame be used?

 

Cheers,

Alan

[NZmodeller]

Hi Everyone,

 

It is possible to fit the 37 bogies into the 55 and they don't look great, mainly because the gap is even more pronounced but even so , the frames look a little too chunky under the 55. They are a tight fit so I wouldn't recommend trying to run the loco like that. I've lowered one of my 37s and adjusted the gap on the bogies too, this did create a few problems on curves. In short, I prefer the Deltic compromise so the loco is not too high and this accentuates it's overall length and presence, both locos have a bigger gap between loco and bogie frames but I think the 37 looks worse out of the box, hence my surgery to the loco. We've had this before with the 42 and 47 which was lowered but is still too high. On the other hand, Dapol have been able to do a 56 and 52 without this anomaly. The gap is clearly deliberate and we appear to be at the mercy of a policy that enables all Farish locos to traverse train set curves. I'm still struggling with how this didn't happen with the DP1 though.

 

Peter

[Dr Al]

It is possible to fit the 37 bogies into the 55 and they don't look great, mainly because the gap is even more pronounced but even so

 

 

Do you have a photo of this?

 

We've had this before with the 42 and 47 which was lowered but is still too high.

 

 

I don't believe the retooled second batch (after the bogie mods) class 47s are - I think they are pretty accurate.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[arran]

HI

 

So are you sending it back to the shop because you don't like a particular detail or am I reading you wrong.

 

Regards Arran

[oreamnos]

As the one who's spent the most amount of time looking at this, do you think a set of replacement bogie sideframes (3D printed or whatever) would sort out the majority of these issues? And if so is there an opportunity for a small supplier to come to the rescue in due course with an upgrade? It seems like from what's been said the bogie wheelbase and position are ok, just the cosmetics that aren't - which is basically the sideframe.

 

Were the 55 and 37 bogies the same in real life? If so, could a 37 frame be used?

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

Yes, but...

 

I've been considering Ben A's comments in post #131.  Given he has measured the 55 and says the bogies are the right distance from the end of the body, I will assume that the illusion that they are too far away from it is caused by the fact that the bogie side frames are too narrow top to bottom and by the large bogie/body gap.  The smaller than scale wheels perhaps play a role in making the bogies look mislocated, too.

 

Given that, I think most of the appearance problems could be disguised simply by somehow raising the bogie sideframes slightly.  That will narrow the bogie/body gap and will also put the axle boxes in line with the wheel centers.

 

I don't think the 55 body needs to be lowered.  See the relative roof lines of various models in the photos above.  I think the body sits at the right height already and besides, lowering the body won't fix the the problem of the axle boxes being too low and not matching the wheel centers.

 

I agree with Peter than given Farish got the bogies spot on with DP1, it should have been able to with the 55.  I appreciate the different locos have different bogies and wheelbases and the whole parade of other possible justifications why it didn't, but this is a rare instance where I truly feel the manufacturer really could have done better.  Bachmann made corrections to the 47 bogie after the first release.  I hope it will consider correcting the 55 bogie the same way.

 

Finally, yes, the 37, 55, and 50 all used the same bogie in real life.  Perhaps small minor differences between the classes but the basic design and dimensions where the same.

 

Matt

 

Edit: Yes, Arran, I'm sending it back the shop because I don't like the look of the bogies.  I live in California.  There are no British outline models in the shops here for me to examine firsthand before I decide to buy.  Makes it a bit of a PITA, but almost all UK shops I've dealt with have always been excellent.

[Jon020]

There are detail differences in terms of towing eyes (not on 50) and cab steps etc; not sure if 50 shared bogies with others but 55 and 37s swapped. This is accurate for the cast bogies... a number of 37s receiving them after the 55s were withdrawn and those preserved 55s getting 37 bogies instead - except for KOYLI that retains cast bogies. The holes are there on all of them for the different steps; I had a good look at some cast bogies under a 37 at Swanwick a few years ago - they had the towing eyes and brackets usually seen on a 55 - I wondered which loco they's been rescued from.

 

 

Finally, yes, the 37, 55, and 50 all used the same bogie in real life.  Perhaps small minor differences between the classes but the basic design and dimensions where the same.

 

 

As for the distance between the bogie and body, I do find all of his discussion unusual - it seems that the production units do not match some of the items released to mags for reviews as these all had a very small bogie-body gap... so maybe something happened before the full product release to change this - I thought that the small gap was achieved through using small wheels. 
Perhaps something can be adjusted?

Jon

[Flying Pig]

Perhaps something can be adjusted?

Jon

 

Raising the bogie frames of the Farish Class 37 is covered in RBE's epic Millers Dale thread here.  I'd be surprised if the 55 bogie was very different.

[oreamnos]

Raising the bogie frames of the Farish Class 37 is covered in RBE's epic Millers Dale thread here.  I'd be surprised if the 55 bogie was very different.

 

Comparing the pictures at the very useful link cited (thank you!) with the picture of the upside down 55 chassis in post #126 suggestes that the new 55 bogie is actually quite different from the 37 bogie.  Reading RBE's "how to" indicates that the 37 bogie happens to be constructed in such a way that the side frames readily lend themselves to being raised.  While I'm sure raising the frames could still be done to a 55 from what I see it unfortunately doesn't look like it would be as straightfoward as it appears to be on the 37. 

 

Matt

[Dr Al]

It seems to me the issue here is actually the wheel diameter. Because it's underscale it looks like Bachmann may have deliberately compacted the height of the bogie sideframe to reduce the visual impact of the wheels being underscale. This is assumed when compared to the 37, assuming it's to scale. I guess they've achieved this to a point (Tom's photo looks very good), but when compared with the 37 it really is noticable.

 

As such it looks like improvement could best be gained by fitting a set of 37 bogies and then lowering the body to sit correctly on them....not a job for the feint hearted, or might not even be possible....

 

Also, for the 37, raising the frames is a bad idea. It's easier to lower the body a fraction - I've done this on 7 37s now and they really look better without need for pulling the frames up (which misaligns the wheels relative to the axle boxes vertically, and also reduces the integrity of the bogie frame moulding). You need only to remove a small amount from the base of the cab interior moulding, the internal windows and the body should be able to be dropped.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[NZmodeller]

Hi Everyone,

 

It may turn out that, on closer inspection the smaller wheels/small bogie strategy may have been transferred directly from the DP1 and no-one picked up the anomaly as there was no previous model to compare with. 

 

It's each to their own on the compromises that need to be there to get a model to run around tight curves. Some will look at the Deltic's bogies and will never be able to live with the look, personally I prefer that to the loco sitting too high. If someone can find a way of altering the model so that it has the correct sized bogies and wheels, has a scale gap between the bogies and body, is the correct height and will still run around 300m curves then I will be interested but I won't hold my breath.

 

It will, however, be very interesting to see the Dapol class 50

 

Peter

[Elvinley]

If you look at these photos - the prototype model's bogies looks pretty close to the real thing.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=prototype+deltic&client=firefox-a&hs=I8c&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=DqChU-wWx8HsBvGZgNgE&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=913#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=WLj0LgfjSLbiwM%253A%3B2mOIJND5_IZ_OM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.loveless.co.uk%252Fwayback%252F2011%252Fimages%252Fdeltic%252Fdeltic_shildon.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.loveless.co.uk%252Fwayback%252F2011%252Fprototype_deltic.html%3B720%3B360

[Elvinley]

If anything, the class 37 bogies may be overscale:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=class+37&client=firefox-a&hs=GZI&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=k6GhU9DwNoaN7Qbmw4HoBg&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1680&bih=913#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=Kz9-vvZLXHP-uM%253A%3BPQUnbGoy4NiRgM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flocoyard.files.wordpress.com%252F2013%252F06%252F015-2013-watercress-line-ropley-class-37-d6836.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flocoyard.com%252F2013%252F06%252F27%252Fclass-379-d6836%252F%3B4776%3B2620

[oreamnos]

Pinza parcel posted.  Pity!  

 

Matt

[Flying Pig]

FWIW, here's a crop of the photo Matt posted earlier.  I've rotated it as well as I can to make the rail horizontal and marked various levels on it:

 

 

A few observations

 

- the buffer heights look near as dammit the same to me

- it's clear the bogie frame on Pinza has not been attached perfectly level; it looks correct at the left to me and I've used this end to take levels ;

- the bottom edge of the skirt on Deltic curves downwards outboard of the kickplate, this does not appear to be due to a misaligned bodyshell, as checking the cream trim shows that it is horizontal.

- the body-bogie gap is smaller on DP1 than the Class 55 only by fractions of a millimetre.

 

Note that the skirt of DP1 does not tuck under like that of a Class 55 and the resulting overhang will reduce the apparent gap between body and bogies when the model is viewed from above as is usual.  On a Class 55, there's hardly any overhang at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oreamnos]

That's quite useful; thank you.

 

I think your observations are accurate.  I did not notice the 55 bogie sideframes were attached unevenly front to rear until I was packing up the model to send back to Hattons.  The reason I noticed this at that time is because the model's packaging compresses against the inner ends of both bogies and presses them towards the bottom of the chassis and because of this I thought I had not re-packed the model properly, but I actually had.

 

I took the re-packed model out of it's plastic packaging to re-examine it (as maybe I wouldn't have to send it back!) and I confirmed that both bogies were attached firmly and appropriately - there was no loose play on the droopy outer end of either bogie.  I re-examined the pictures I posted here and I could also see that they show both bogies are not level and droop on the outer ends.

 

I have to wonder if the compression being caused by the packaging is causing the outer ends of the sideframes to be shifted somehow out of level.

 

The only comment I would add to your very good observations is that that bottom of the 55's bogie sideframe is very slightly further from the rail top than the bottom of the DP1 bogie, which indicates to me that the 55 sideframes are still a tad narrower top to bottom than the those of DP1.

 

For me it is moot as I have sent my model back.  But the analysis is useful all the same.

 

Matt

[NZmodeller]

Hi everyone,

 

The white wheel rims tend to accentuate the small wheels, the problem is far less apparent with the plain black wheels of the blue version.

 

Peter

[Flying Pig]

The only comment I would add to your very good observations is that that bottom of the 55's bogie sideframe is very slightly further from the rail top than the bottom of the DP1 bogie, which indicates to me that the 55 sideframes are still a tad narrower top to bottom than the those of DP1.

 

As the bogies are of different designs, it's hard to say whether this is significant without comparing both models with the drawings.  However, an attempt to estimate the centres of the inner wheel and the axlebox cover on Pinza (below) does suggest to me that the frame is a fraction low even at its left hand end.

 

 

I think we may have a situation similar to that of the first batch of Class 47s here and Farish need to attend to the fit of the bogie frame for future production.  However, as it is designed to match the centres of the reduced wheels, even set up correctly it's gong to look a little low.  My solution for this model would still be to raise the sideframes as from normal viewing points the gap above the bogie frame is far more obvious than a slight misalignment with the wheel centres (and parallax is on your side here anyway). 

[oreamnos]

Regarding bogie/body gaps which has been a topic in this thread, here's a snap of a Farish Class 46.

 

 

This model has not been modified in any way and is as new yet look at how tight things are between the bogie and the body above the three powered axles.  This loco (like all my other Farish Peaks) has no issues with gradients, uneven track, points, and it will even run just fine on Kato Companct Unitrack 7.5" radius curves.  This loco is representative of all my Farish Peaks from the 2006 first batch.  My models from second batch of Peaks dating from 2011/2012 have a fractionally bigger gap.  I don't know why.

 

So the question naturally is why, if Farish have in the past used tight bogie/body clearances with no ill effects, has the company elected to open the gaps up on the new the Class 55 and others, too?  It's just seems odd to me and retrograde as well.

 

Matt

[Vonzack]

I'm not sure the gaps are opening up. Aren't we just seeing the effect of more accurate bogie mouldings, giving us that illusion?