Western milk train

[Keith George]

Am I correct in thinking that during the 1950s the Penzance to Kensington milk train passed through Bristol at approx. 6.30 pm and took the Badminton route to London. ?

 

Thanks in anticipation of any information.

 

Keith.

[Karhedron]

I think that there were at least 2 trains a day from Penzance to Kensington in the 1950s. I have an article from 1959 detailing milk trains and including a run on the Up Penzance milk train. I will try to dig it out and see if it says anything about the time it passed through Bristol.

[chrisf]

In the winter 1961 WTT both Penzance - Kensington milk trains were booked via Westbury. If the 'desert' was closed for engineering work they would have gone via Bristol.

 

Chris

[Keith George]

It was during the early and mid fifties I was thinking about. It was always double headed [ more often than not two castles] and going like the clappers!

If it was not going to Kensington could there have been another destination for this particular milk train.

 

Keith.

[Karhedron]

Milk from the west-country went to a variety of bottling plants in London. Wood Lane and Mitre Bridge were both regular recipients. IIRC Kensington was not really the final destination. It was just a marshalling point for milk trains from various routes where the tank would be sorted and dispatched to the bottling plants.

[chrisf]

Keith, I wonder if what you saw was the 5.50 pm Wellington to West Ealing? This picked up at Highbridge and Puxton & Worle and continued via Bristol TM [7.45 - 8.10 pm], Bath and Westbury East Chord, thence via the desert.

 

THe article that Karhedron mentions is "Home With The Milk" by R C Riley and is in the March 1959 issue of Trains Illustrated. There can be few if any better overviews of milk traffic on the Western. I shouldn't be telling you this but if you cannot track down a copy I have a scanner. The article explains that once the milk train reached London the tanks were dispersed all over the place. Some would have been detached at West Ealing, the remainder proceeding to Kensington Olympia.

 

Milk trains via Badminton would have originated at Whitland or Carmarthen. There were up to three per day.

 

Chris

Edited September 28, 2012 by chrisf

[Keith George]

Hi Chris, The train was always observed at Lawrence Hill station, [first station out of T.M.]heading towards the midlands or London via the Badminton route.This is the route the up "Britolian" took, It had gone past the junction for Bath etc. [Dr. Days Junction] so could not be going that way.

Thinking about it this was 1953/54, so I wonder if it could have been rerouted later in the 1950s.

I can remember making sure I was down at the station each evening in time to see the "milky".

 

Keith.

[chrisf]

Well, Keith, we are well and truly in Puzzle Corner. I've had another look in the 1957-58 Bristol WTT and all I can find in the way of milk trains going uphill at Lawrence Hill is the 7.20 pm Wood Lane to Whitland empties which were due through after midnight so it clearly wasn't that. Sorry! Now I'm left wondering why those empties went that way when the Badminton route would have been the obvious one to take and why the Weymouth milk went via Trowbridge and Chippenham instead of through the desert, though the world will continue to rotate on its axis if I never know.

 

Chris

Edited September 28, 2012 by chrisf

[Keith George]

Thanks very much for the interest taken and big efforts to find the answer.

I am still wondering if it could have been routed away from this route after 1954. [when I was rerouted to live on the other side of Bristol}

 

Regards, Keith.

[Miss Prism]

There's a file in the gwr-elist files section on the Wales milk train traffic.

[Keith George]

I have been thinking about this.! While the spotters at the time [and their parents who said that we all had to go home after seeing the " milkie"] always referred to this train as the milkie, I am starting to recall that it was mainly made up of "siphon" type vehicles. Could there have been a fast double headed parcels train to pass through Lawrence Hill at this time. I was only 7 at the time [61 years ago]! , so my memory of the actual consist of this train could have been a little blurred.

 

Regards,  Keith.

[Fat Controller]

I have been thinking about this.! While the spotters at the time [and their parents who said that we all had to go home after seeing the " milkie"] always referred to this train as the milkie, I am starting to recall that it was mainly made up of "siphon" type vehicles. Could there have been a fast double headed parcels train to pass through Lawrence Hill at this time. I was only 7 at the time [61 years ago]! , so my memory of the actual consist of this train could have been a little blurred.

 

Regards,  Keith.

If it was largely Siphons, then it could have been 'the 'Papers', or more likely the returning empties; I doubt that there was that much milk in churn going by rail in 1952. Old nicknames for trains loitered on, long after the train ceased to serve its original function- in the 1970s, the last Llanelli- Shrewsbury was still referred to by all and sundry as 'the North Mail', even though it was only a two car DMU to Shrewsbury, rather than the Swansea- York mail train, which had ceased years before.

[Keith George]

If it was largely Siphons, then it could have been 'the 'Papers', or more likely the returning empties; I doubt that there was that much milk in churn going by rail in 1952. Old nicknames for trains loitered on, long after the train ceased to serve its original function- in the 1970s, the last Llanelli- Shrewsbury was still referred to by all and sundry as 'the North Mail', even though it was only a two car DMU to Shrewsbury, rather than the Swansea- York mail train, which had ceased years before.

That sounds very feasable, but would a train of newspaper empties warranted double heading by the two castles or a castle and hall.

 

Keith.

[Fat Controller]

That sounds very feasable, but would a train of newspaper empties warranted double heading by the two castles or a castle and hall.

 

Keith.

It might do- what was the weight limit on Filton Bank for a single Castle? In diesel days, the 'Papers could load to 15 or so vehicles.

[The Stationmaster]

The load on Filton Bank for a single 'Castle' was 420 tons (trailing).  On loaded milk trains via either Bristol and Box or Castle Cary and Lavington the maximum permitted trailing load for a 'Castle' was 505 tons.

[Keith George]

What would the weight be for say a dozen newspaper empties.?

 

Keith.

[Fat Controller]

What would the weight be for say a dozen newspaper empties.?

 

Keith.

Top of my head, I'd reckon about 30t per van, so 360t; they probably wouldn't be entirely empty, as they'd be taking back bundled unsold papers from the previous day.

One thought comes to mind; there was a Down parcels working from Swindon which was used to run in ex-works locos; might this have been the return?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Fat Controller

[Keith George]

If weight for Filton bank had been a factor for double heading, I would have thought it would have been routed via Bath.

 

Keith.

[BWsTrains]

On 28/09/2012 at 16:09, chrisf said:

....

 

THe article that Karhedron mentions is "Home With The Milk" by R C Riley and is in the March 1959 issue of Trains Illustrated. There can be few if any better overviews of milk traffic on the Western. I shouldn't be telling you this but if you cannot track down a copy I have a scanner. The article explains that once the milk train reached London the tanks were dispersed all over the place. Some would have been detached at West Ealing, the remainder proceeding to Kensington Olympia.

...

 

 

Chris

 

Following up on this oldie post, I'm interested in the schedule of the Milk train starting at St Erth / Penzance, then via these pickups:

Lost Withiel, Totness + tanks from the Ashburton branch, Exeter finally picking up from Hemyock Torrington branches and on to London.

 

Would your resource by any chance cast some light on the timing of the Up and Return trains preferably in the 1930s , it will be helpful planning schedules on a new project I'm starting,

 

Regards,

 

Colin

[Kris]

6 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Following up on this oldie post, I'm interested in the schedule of the Milk train starting at St Erth / Penzance, then via these pickups:

Lost Withiel, Totness + tanks from the Ashburton branch, Exeter finally picking up from Hemyock Torrington branches and on to London.

 

Would your resource by any chance cast some light on the timing of the Up and Return trains preferably in the 1930s , it will be helpful planning schedules on a new project I'm starting,

 

Regards,

 

Colin

The 1953 TT has the milk trains as follows. 

                                  arr.         dep. 

Penzance (Pass)        -          12:20

St Erth.                    12:30.   12:45

Dolcoath sidings.  13:02.   13:18

Truro.                      13:40.   13:45

Lostwithiel.             14:25.   14:40

North Road.            15:40.   16:20

Totnes.                    16:59.    17:15

Newton Abbot.      17:35     17:40

 

                                  arr.         dep. 

Penzance (Pass)        -         18:20

St Erth.                    18:33.   19:00

Carn Brea Yard.     19:18.   19:30

Truro.                      19:50.   19:55

Lostwithiel.             20:33.   20:47

North Road.            21:38.   22:05

Totnes.                    22:50.    22:54

Newton Abbot.      23:10     23:18

 

 

I don't have the later stations unfortunately but hopefully this will help. 

[BWsTrains]

Thanks Kris,

 

However, I've seen the passenger timetable for Penzance departures for 1939 and they don't align at all with those in your 1953 table.

My original source strongly suggested that it was an early morning Milk Run from Cornwall but unfortunately no timing was provided. As I'm modelling mid 1930s it's clear that 1950s data is not going to be of much help I'm afraid

 

1) Milk wagon traffic went with Passenger traffic from Penzance but I'm not sure how far before it parted, turning into Goods only. The individual stop times to collect wagons shown in your table suggest either very patient passengers or not far after Penzance!

 

2) What I can assemble from your help is a proxy schedule based on various inputs:

the 1953 Milk Train Journey time between Penzance (pass) and Newton Abbot ~5hr

Newtown Abbot - Exeter 0h:30min (1939 Bradshaw's Passenger, limited stops)

Exeter - Paddington (Bradshaw's 1939 Passenger XP as a proxy for XP Milk) 3hr:35m 

 

Allowing for a further stop after Exeter at Tiverton Jct (Hemyock Wagons) of say 30min, would give a minimum travel time of ~10hr end to end.

 

For my East Devon Area of Interest it gives me pickup time some 5h:15m to 5hr 45m after the Penzance Departure - that being the key missing bit in my puzzle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by BWsTrains
Addition re travel time

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

Thanks Kris,

 

However, I've seen the passenger timetable for Penzance departures for 1939 and they don't align at all with those in your 1953 table.

My original source strongly suggested that it was an early morning Milk Run from Cornwall but unfortunately no timing was provided. As I'm modelling mid 1930s it's clear that 1950s data is not going to be of much help I'm afraid

 

1) Milk wagon traffic went with Passenger traffic from Penzance but I'm not sure how far before it parted, turning into Goods only. The individual stop times to collect wagons shown in your table suggest either very patient passengers or not far after Penzance!

 

2) What I can assemble from your help is a proxy schedule based on various inputs:

the 1953 Milk Train Journey time between Penzance (pass) and Newton Abbot ~5hr

Newtown Abbot - Exeter 0h:30min (1939 Bradshaw's Passenger, limited stops)

Exeter - Paddington (Bradshaw's 1939 Passenger XP as a proxy for XP Milk) 3hr:35m 

 

Allowing for a further stop after Exeter at Tiverton Jct (Hemyock Wagons) of say 30min, would give a minimum travel time of ~10hr end to end.

 

For my East Devon Area of Interest it gives me pickup time some 5h:15m to 5hr 45m after the Penzance Departure - that being the key missing bit in my puzzle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re your Item 1. On the GWR milk traffic was only permitted to be taken by freight trains when specially authorised and that wouldn't happen in any of the busier milk producing areas.  Thus a traffic in churns g from Cornwall would inevitably have been moved by either passenger trains or milk trains (although the latter might not be shown as such but the Class of train shown in the STT should confirm that).

[Karhedron]

On 10/08/2021 at 01:29, BWsTrains said:

Would your resource by any chance cast some light on the timing of the Up and Return trains preferably in the 1930s , it will be helpful planning schedules on a new project I'm starting,

 

Milk trains in the Duchy in the 1930s were very different beasts to the post-nationalisation version. Traffic changed considerably with the introduction of milk tankers, it wasn't simply a case of tankers displacing siphons full of churns. Many of the large dispatching creameries in Cornwall only opened to support tanker traffic.

 

The first to open was Lostwithiel in 1932 which was originally a Nestle establishment. This was the first to send milk tankers to London. Interestingly, as well as collecting milk from the surrounding farms in lorries, Lostwithiel also received milk in on the rails. Siphons full of milk from further west were hauled to Lostwithiel for processing. Lostwithiel typically dispatched 3-4 milk tanks per day in the early 30s.

 

Next up was the MMB creamery at Camborne which opened on 1937. This used a siding laid at Dolcoath to fill milk tankers. Apparently this was done with a hand pump in the early days which must have been both exhausting and time consuming.

 

I don't have an opening date for the creamery at St Erth but I know it was after Camborne. Prior to this the site was a china clay dries. Similarly I have found no record of milk tanks from Penzance prior to WW2.

 

So the milk from Cornwall didn't run in a dedicated train from Penzance in the 1930s. Even in the late 30s, Camborn and Lostwithiel were much smaller than they would eventually be and dispatched correspondingly smaller numbers of tanks. I suspect that milk trains in the late 1930s were more disorganised with a mix of tankers and siphons rather than dedicated tanker trains as would happen in the folllowing decades.

[BWsTrains]

Thanks, now that is really interesting and throws an entirely different light on my question.

 

I'm looking at a mid 1930s setting and scheduling a milk pickup in East Devon (Cullompton or Tiverton).

What I'd found about known activities (viz. Culm Valley Dairy) just didn't sit well with their output being attached on the end of an early long milk train starting from deepest Cornwall. Now I know why!

 

It sounds as if in the mid 1930s a Milk Train would be a mix of tankers and siphons and I can apply a little license as to precise timing, it being plausible that it was a Morning Milk train and got to East Devon by late morning.

 

 

[Karhedron]

You are right. In the 30s, the milk from Hemyock was often attached to the 5.55pm milk train from Wellington to West Ealing. It varied from year to year as to whether these would be attached at Tiverton Junction or worked all the way to Wellington. By 1940, pick up was normally at Tiverton Junction. Milk from Hemyock was only added to Penzance milk train in 1963. This coincided with the withdrawal of passenger trains on the Hemyock branch and also the end of the Wellington milk train.