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Kernow Models D6xx Update


Andy Y
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I think we have seen enough pictures to conclude the fuel tank battery box was green on delivery, but what colour they were on repaint but still in green livery or when repainted into blue livery is still not clear.

 

I have seen a colour picture of an ex works 600 in blue livery at Plymouth but cant find it now.

 

Edit-

I offer this as proof the box was black when they were rebuilt with headcode boxes and painted with yellow ends as the boxes are much closer to the shade of the black on the bogies than the green of the body-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rac819/25988950003/in/photolist-k5vJsL-FAyaoT/lightbox/

 

Cant find an ex works D600 but here is an early blue D6300 with black boxes-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/16062591446/in/photolist-qtoYPQ-drjoxP-qgXuqh-GW6uc-GW6tR-jHZM8f-dUc4Ld-6Tk6K4-dkNQ3w-74HVcZ-7hLGZ7-7kzgAX-7rUj4z-7kDm31-7kDkcs-7kyWmB-7kzgV6-7Ng559-7Nc5BP-7qQiB7-7kyVGx-7kZXVn-7kDkty-7m4TT7-7kztFD-7hGLk6-7m4S7N-7hGK4p-7hLGz3-7Nc5HK-7meUkH-7kCNzd-7kCNnJ-7kCN7m-7miMYW-7kztSP-7m4PAs-7meTKP-7kyVXn-7kzthz-aGBn7e-NtsUiv-5wSm15-wT9hPm-7YktTT-JsgTf-4udbpn-c3Vg6-HS4Sis-eHeywv/lightbox/

 

So my opinion (for what it is worth) is delivered with green battery boxes but they were black on repaint!

Edited by royaloak
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D600 on page 104 of ‘Sixties Diesel & Electric Days Remembered V’ has a green battery box cover. The photo is dated May 1962 after an overhaul. You can clearly see the colour difference between the bogies and the cover. The former are black and the latter are green.

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I think we have seen enough pictures to conclude the fuel tank battery box was green on delivery, but what colour they were on repaint but still in green livery or when repainted into blue livery is still not clear.

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I think we have seen enough pictures to conclude the fuel tank battery box was green on delivery, but what colour they were on repaint but still in green livery or when repainted into blue livery is still not clear.

 

Also green after overhaul not just after delivery.

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The best colour photo I've seen of a blue loco is one of Strathwood's showing D600 in summer 1967 at Laira, not long after its visit to Swindon for a repaint in May. It's a good side-on shot, and the battery boxes appear to be black, and the same tone as the bogies. It's in 'Looking Back at the Warships', page 7, if anyone else has that book.

 

Edit: There is also this one from RCTS of D602 - black again I think.

 

p2826009296-4.jpg

Edited by stovepipe
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Then why are the bogies clearly black - after all, the bogies and battery boxes are subject to the same weathering processes?

 

If anything, I'd expect the bogies to acquire a lighter shade than the smooth battery boxes under weathering, as their surface details would trap the dirt.

 

Let's face it - no matter what evidence is presented - you're not going to concede the point at this stage, are you?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

The angles are different so the light falling on the surface has a different effect as does any surface dirt.

 

Now as far as conceding anything is concerned, and for the benefit of non believers I offer the following extract (green livery) from the official BR paint specifications for the D6XX taken from Joe Lewis's excellent book on the WR hydraulics.  I first knew Joe back in 1967 when he was Divisional Loco Engineer at Reading and he was more than familiar with all the hydraulics with an impeccable engineering background and his book was obviously well researched from official sources at in addition to his experiences with the various locos.  If nothing else the BSS numbers might give somebody who can access them something to work from?

 

Locomotive body throughout Locomotive Green BR Specification No.30

Roof panels Grey to BSS2660-9-100

4" wide Light Grey waistline to BSS2660-5-058

Bufferbeam and buffer stocks Red to BSS 2660-0-005

Bogies, wheels, underframe, battery boxes and drawgear Black to BSS 2660-9-103

6" white lettering

Nameplate ground 'Kernitone' Signal Red

post-6859-0-17780400-1534414581_thumb.jpg

Edited by The Stationmaster
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The best colour photo I've seen of a blue loco is one of Strathwood's showing D600 in summer 1967 at Laira, not long after its visit to Swindon for a repaint in May. It's a good side-on shot, and the battery boxes appear to be black, and the same tone as the bogies. It's in 'Looking Back at the Warships', page 7, if anyone else has that book.

 

Edit: There is also this one from RCTS of D602 - black again I think.

 

p2826009296-4.jpg

 

The initial repaint spec into blue livery for D600 and D602 showed the underframe, bogies and battery boxes as black.

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ame="JE" post="3266976" timestamp="1534361641"]

 

 

 

Also green after overhaul not just after delivery.

Well it was very definitely black on D601 when new and the same on either D600 or D602 (one of which I saw from ground level in the part of Laira long shed converted for diesel servicing.   I remember the surprise of a green lower bodyside on the D8XX 'Waships' compared with the black which I had up to then seen on the D6XX and the EE Type 4 D200s.

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If nothing else the BSS numbers might give somebody who can access them something to work from?

Bogies, wheels, underframe, battery boxes and drawgear Black to BSS 2660-9-103

 

Post #1

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54551-western-liveries-1961-1977/

 

Nidge wrote: "In some period photos of new or nearly new locos these ... ...  often look dark grey, but the paint spec quoted by the BTC was 'Black to BSS 2660-9-103'."

 

This was about Westerns, but the colour is the same reference.

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The angles are different so the light falling on the surface has a different effect as does any surface dirt.

 

Now as far as conceding anything is concerned, and for the benefit of non believers I offer the following extract (green livery) from the official BR paint specifications for the D6XX taken from Joe Lewis's excellent book on the WR hydraulics.  I first knew Joe back in 1967 when he was Divisional Loco Engineer at Reading and he was more than familiar with all the hydraulics with an impeccable engineering background and his book was obviously well researched from official sources at in addition to his experiences with the various locos.  If nothing else the BSS numbers might give somebody who can access them something to work from?

 

Locomotive body throughout Locomotive Green BR Specification No.30

Roof panels Grey to BSS2660-9-100

4" wide Light Grey waistline to BSS2660-5-058

Bufferbeam and buffer stocks Red to BSS 2660-0-005

Bogies, wheels, underframe, battery boxes and drawgear Black to BSS 2660-9-103

6" white lettering

Nameplate ground 'Kernitone' Signal Red

 

I don't think that anyone is questioning what the specification stated - but we can all quote numerous examples of the specification / drawings being honoured in the breach.

 

It would not be unreasonable to suggest that the majority of contributors to this thread are ABSOLUTELY convinced, by the photos posted here, that the battery boxes were painted green, either by North British in 1958, or very shortly after delivery.

 

That being the case, the sensible course would be to supply the models with green battery boxes; those who remain unconvinced can easily apply a coat of Halfords satin or matt primer.

 

The other alternative, of supplying them painted black, would require those - (the majority?) - who require green battery boxes would have to try to match the shade of green. Not an easy task!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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Post #1

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54551-western-liveries-1961-1977/

 

Nidge wrote: "In some period photos of new or nearly new locos these ... ...  often look dark grey, but the paint spec quoted by the BTC was 'Black to BSS 2660-9-103'."

 

This was about Westerns, but the colour is the same reference.

 

That quote conveniently omits the bit referring to roof painting, so it has no relevance.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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I don't think that anyone is questioning what the specification stated - but we can all quote numerous examples of the specification / drawings being honoured in the breach.

 

It would not be unreasonable to suggest that the majority of contributors to this thread are ABSOLUTELY convinced, by the photos posted here, that the battery boxes were painted green, either by North British in 1958, or very shortly after delivery.

 

That being the case, the sensible course would be to supply the models with green battery boxes; those who remain unconvinced can easily apply a coat of Halfords satin or matt primer.

 

The other alternative, of supplying them painted black, would require those - (the majority?) - who require green battery boxes would have to try to match the shade of green. Not an easy task!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

One other possibility, although it might be more expensive, would be to supply alternative battery boxes as clip on options.

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Well it was very definitely black on D601 when new and the same on either D600 or D602 (one of which I saw from ground level in the part of Laira long shed converted for diesel servicing. I remember the surprise of a green lower bodyside on the D8XX 'Waships' compared with the black which I had up to then seen on the D6XX and the EE Type 4 D200s.

Mike, the photo that I refer to is of D600 after overhaul at Swindon in May 1962 with a green battery box cover - the other is missing. It is not a trick of the light but simply the same colour as the body. Have you seen the photo? This may lead you to question your assertion.

Edited by mevaman
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That quote conveniently omits the bit referring to roof painting, so it has no relevance.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

John, I omitted that quite deliberately because the point I was clarifying was that the paint spec referred to black, as that was the specific question Mike asked.

 

I wasn't carrying on like one of Murdoch's journalists by cropping the quote!   :sungum:

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I don't think that anyone is questioning what the specification stated - but we can all quote numerous examples of the specification / drawings being honoured in the breach.

 

It would not be unreasonable to suggest that the majority of contributors to this thread are ABSOLUTELY convinced, by the photos posted here, that the battery boxes were painted green, either by North British in 1958, or very shortly after delivery.

 

That being the case, the sensible course would be to supply the models with green battery boxes; those who remain unconvinced can easily apply a coat of Halfords satin or matt primer.

 

The other alternative, of supplying them painted black, would require those - (the majority?) - who require green battery boxes would have to try to match the shade of green. Not an easy task!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

John, It might be along time ago but I know what I saw with my own eyes.  and I had to have tests for colour blindness at varuious times as part of my work in order to ensure my safety and that of others so I know true greens when I see the, especially broadside on in decent lighting conditions and not at angle on colour film of unknown characteristics (and I have colour transparencies that old with their own peculiarities of colour cast depending numerous factors) scanned by whatever unknown means  and viewed on computers of whatever setting,  It Kernow wish to follow the herd they they are welcome to do so and my orders will obviously stand but the battery boxes on my two models will be painted in the colour in which i can remember seeing them when standing ext to one of them at ground level in their early days - not long after BR had taken the first three into traffic

 

You are of course welcome to your views and interpretations - I prefer to stick with the spec and what I saw - and they were very definitely black, end of story.  Gosh. Larry Goddard got it spot on in a recent post on another thread.  PS somewhere I have a contemporaneous colour slide I took of an A4 and you could have an awful job deciding exactly what colour the wheels were if you didn't happen to know, or even believe that they were black, and it was in a very good state of cleanliness. (Kodachrome 1958)

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Mike, the photo that I refer to is of D600 after overhaul at Swindon in May 1962 with a green battery box cover - the other is missing. It is not a trick of the light but simply the same colour as the body. Have you seen the photo? This may lead you to question your assertion.

 

I have mentioned previously that things might have happened either on depot or at works after delivery - could you reference the link (or book for the photo please.  But assuming it is the one of D600 in the Swindon wood yard (judging by the background) the doors do appear to look green and it is probable they were repainted off the loco.  Originally it definitely had black battery box covers as various monotone pictures make clear simply by consistency of tone.  

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To my mind the clear colour images show green battery box covers on green locos and black on the single decent blue view.

 

With respect to The Statiomaster’s comments and career connections, and given that all five models will have detail differences and both green and black covers will be required for the models anyway, if an unambiguous colour image of a green loco with black covers emerges then the model of that loco could have matching covers.

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To my mind the clear colour images show green battery box covers on green locos and black on the single decent blue view.

 

With respect to The Statiomaster’s comments and career connections, and given that all five models will have detail differences and both green and black covers will be required for the models anyway, if an unambiguous colour image of a green loco with black covers emerges then the model of that loco could have matching covers.

 

Agreed - I too await the emergence of that elusive colour photo with interest.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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Given the last three examples were delivered 7+ months after the first two, I do think it is possible that D600 & D601 did have black battery boxes for a period of time. However there is enough evidence for me that they both acquired green battery boxes at some later point, with D602/3/4 very possibly delivered from new that way.

 

There is only one model that represents the very early BR days - K2601. The other plain green model, K2604 dates from after the air intake louvres were modified in Jan 1961, some 2 years into it's service life.

 

Does anyone know whether Kernow is producing K2604 with overhead line warning symbols?

Edited by stovepipe
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