Kernow Models D6xx Update

[Phil Bullock]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

D602 WAS an early repaint, as it received the short-lived chromatic blue. I was with a friend when he photographed it at Lostwithiel in blue/SYP - just about the only picture of a blue D6xx working that I've ever published. I'll ask if he has the actual date but it is likely to have been 1965 or 1966 as that's when we visited Cornwall. Judging by the 5C53 headcode, it was this picture that Kernow used in their research. By 1967 Swindon would have been well into full yellow ends - SYP on blue was short-lived. (CJL)

 

Agreed short lived but suspect not until late 66 - Other locos such as D831 BSYP Nov 66, D830 BSYP Jan 67 so late 66/early 67 might seem logical for D602? The picture on the Kernow web site - although not working 5C53 - is dated April 67

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

 

[jsp3970]

I see the MOL TRUTH is now in the Atlantic, about to pass the southern tip of Portugal. For some reason, after waiting years after ordering it, I find this part seems to be the longest!

[Philou]

A question arises from the first of the two clips above:

 

So .............. what happened? We EXPORTED locos all over the world at the time of the film - of note was to RENFE (Spain) - and then 50 years on we import them back!

 

(Shakes head in amazement),

 

Philip

[dibber25]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Agreed short lived but suspect not until late 66 - Other locos such as D831 BSYP Nov 66, D830 BSYP Jan 67 so late 66/early 67 might seem logical for D602? The picture on the Kernow web site - although not working 5C53 - is dated April 67

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

 

My memory has proved to be 'out' on this one. The photo of D602 at Lostwithiel was taken on 11 July 1967. It has been published several times with an incorrect 1965-ish dateline. My fault. (CJL)

[stovepipe]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Agreed short lived but suspect not until late 66 - Other locos such as D831 BSYP Nov 66, D830 BSYP Jan 67 so late 66/early 67 might seem logical for D602? The picture on the Kernow web site - although not working 5C53 - is dated April 67

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

Yes indeed, and the BSYP NBLs, Hymeks and Derby Type 2&4s all date from the late-1966 through to Spring 1967 period.

[Baby Deltic]

2 hours ago, Philou said:

A question arises from the first of the two clips above:

 

So .............. what happened? We EXPORTED locos all over the world at the time of the film - of note was to RENFE (Spain) - and then 50 years on we import them back!

 

(Shakes head in amazement),

 

Philip

 

We did indeed. Some locomotives were a success and others weren't. Generally anything built by EE seems to have faired pretty well in the export market but Metrovic loco's with Crossley engines were a disaster in the U.K., Ireland and Australia. North British diesel exports did better in terms of success than their U.K. counterparts but again, this was probably due to choice of engine and who built the engine and how they did it. In the case of MAN engines and Voith transmissions built by NBL under licence, they were nowhere near the quality standards of those built by their German manufacturers. Whether Clayton built exports were any better than their U.K. equivalents?  I don't think NBL used MAN engines on any exports. The choice was probably the Paxman 16Y HXL which may have faired better in a larger hood with better ventilation than their type 1's. Certainly BR modified the BTH type 1's and improved their engine reliability unlike the NBL's which they didn't bother with. Brush exported quite a few locomotives abroad too. They used the Sulzer 12LVA 24 on their Cuban class 47 locomotives instead of the 12LDA 28 which was used in the U.K. Maybe they considered it a more reliable engine? The class 48 experiment doesn't seem to have been a success in the U.K. though. Another thing to bear in mind is the vastness of some foreign countries compared to the UK and the length of runs at full power between stops and gradients. The demands put on WR diesel hydraulics compared to their German counterparts shocked the German manufacturers. This seems to have been one of the things which killed a lot of engines which had been successful in foreign locomotives where the demands were less in a lot of cases. If you are a train operator today looking for reliable proven technology still available a fleet of class 66's would be a tempting proposition over anything the U.K. has to offer. 

 

 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Philou said:

A question arises from the first of the two clips above:

 

So .............. what happened? We EXPORTED locos all over the world at the time of the film - of note was to RENFE (Spain) - and then 50 years on we import them back!

 

(Shakes head in amazement),

 

Philip

APT, class 142, class 58, class 60..

compared to..

SD40-2, Taurus, TGV, ICE.

 

to be fair besides Europeans haven’t really excelled in diesel technology in the 1970/80’s either, which is why the class 66 sold so well into Europe.

 

The problem lies in the war, Pre-war the US was miles ahead in technology, Germany invested heavily in Diesel engine technology, and much of Europe was invested in OHLE.

 

The UK ploughed on with steam, tinkinering with “new tech” on the sides. Dont forget Sulzer, MAN and Maybach weren’t British.

 

post war economies moved to oil, which saw the UK at disadvantage to the US, who moved into the former British colonial market with a superior product, whilst British companies turned inwards and became dependant on British Rail, until that market well and truly ended in 1968, leaving them without a product to sell or a market to sell to.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by adb968008

[Geoff Endacott]

Why are people talking about successful British diesels on a thread about the D600s?

 

Geoff Endacott

[Baby Deltic]

Compared to the other NBL locomotives the D600's were pretty good. Their downfall was the fact that they used German built MAN engines which weren't compatible with NBL built ones so they were often out of service for excessive time periods awaiting parts from Germany, which was somewhat unfairly detrimental to their reliability figures. 

[No Decorum]

6 hours ago, Philou said:

A question arises from the first of the two clips above:

 

So .............. what happened? We EXPORTED locos all over the world at the time of the film - of note was to RENFE (Spain) - and then 50 years on we import them back!

 

(Shakes head in amazement),

 

Philip

To offer two reasons out of many:

1. British Railways ordering huge numbers of diesels without proper testing. As a result, many were duds and many more unsuited to their tasks.

2. With denationalisation (sorry, privatisation) known about long before it happened, orders dried up and production facilities were closed.

Another head shaking.

[D9001]

A very brief but very welcome shot of what appears to be D603 can be seen 33 minutes and 12 seconds into the Margaret’ Rutherford Classic film “Murder She Said” , based on the Christie novel The 4.50 from Paddington, from 1961. 

 

The film is most enjoyable too!

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, D9001 said:

A very brief but very welcome shot of what appears to be D603 can be seen 33 minutes and 12 seconds into the Margaret’ Rutherford Classic film “Murder She Said” , based on the Christie novel The 4.50 from Paddington, from 1961. 

 

The film is most enjoyable too!

If it's the clip I'm thinking of it is just west of Taplow station (as was the one linked a little earlier in this thread).  I think the site of the field is now some sort of motor caravan sales site.

[Baby Deltic]

If o remember correctly D603 is passing on an embankment in the clip and its black and white.

[jsp3970]

 

2 hours ago, Baby Deltic said:

If o remember correctly D603 is passing on an embankment in the clip and its black and white.

The movie is online, the D600 is at 33:14

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wuwx0

 

Here is a still.

 

[dibber25]

20 hours ago, Baby Deltic said:

Compared to the other NBL locomotives the D600's were pretty good. Their downfall was the fact that they used German built MAN engines which weren't compatible with NBL built ones so they were often out of service for excessive time periods awaiting parts from Germany, which was somewhat unfairly detrimental to their reliability figures. 

Only the first two had German-built engines. Their downfall was the fact that they were not what was wanted. The BTC didn't want hydraulics and the WR didn't want heavyweights. The D600s were a compromise - forced by the BTC - that satisfied no one. (Does it sound familiar in politics today?) Once the WR had the D800s, it had what it wanted and consigned the D600s to the far west. (CJL)

[Baby Deltic]

Yes, the did defeat the concept of the German designs the WR were looking at slightly. The political climate wasn't ideal at the time either so maybe the BTC didn't want German involvement either.

[dibber25]

14 hours ago, Baby Deltic said:

Yes, the did defeat the concept of the German designs the WR were looking at slightly. The political climate wasn't ideal at the time either so maybe the BTC didn't want German involvement either.

Certainly, there were major political difficulties in purchasing a design based on the German V200 at the time. The BTC was under the direct control of government (much like the DfT now) and what the railway wanted and what the BTC would allow, were very different (much like the DfT now). (CJL)

[Ian Hargrave]

14 hours ago, Baby Deltic said:

Yes, the did defeat the concept of the German designs the WR were looking at slightly. The political climate wasn't ideal at the time either so maybe the BTC didn't want German involvement either.

 

Interesting thought but if politics were involved then it was between the highly individualistic thinking of the WR and the apparatchik of Marylebone Road which reached its apotheosis with the appointment of a certain Mr.Raymond to run the region and ultimately destroy its ways,heralding the end of diesel hydraulic traction.

 

I honestly cannot recall any international tension on this subject in the late 1950’s.West Germany was undergoing the economic miracle under Chancellor Adenauer and certainly was at the cutting-edge of d/h design and practice.

[Coach bogie]

20 hours ago, jsp3970 said:

 

The movie is online, the D600 is at 33:14

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wuwx0

 

Here is a still.

 

It is all overgrown now but it was shot at Taplow. The bridge is Amerden lane to the west of the station. Do not be confused with the house....it is miles away near Elstree.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[adb968008]

The more I look at these locos the more fascinating they get...

 

latest observation is these things are all doors...

 

3 pairs of engine room access doors on each side, 1 pair of nose end doors each end, 4 driving cab doors...

 

That’s 20 individual human usable access doors on the body, thats before counting access panels.

 

A standard 2nd 57’ mk1 suburban only has 18 doors, a 64ft (as used in 304s etc equals at 20).

 

Was that so NBL guys could swoop on in and scatter gun the repairs ?

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by adb968008

[jsp3970]

Well the MOL TRUTH has now docked in Southampton. Won't be long to clear customs and then the container will be on its way to Camborne.

[Baby Deltic]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The more I look at these locos the more fascinating they get...

 

latest observation is these things are all doors...

 

3 pairs of engine room access doors on each side, 1 pair of nose end doors each end, 4 driving cab doors...

 

That’s 20 individual human usable access doors on the body, thats before counting access panels.

 

A standard 2nd 57’ mk1 suburban only has 18 doors, a 64ft (as used in 304s etc equals at 20).

 

Was that so NBL guys could swoop on in and scatter gun the repairs ?

 

 

 

Good design practice. Easy to remove large items such as compressors, exhausters and pumps without either having to drag them out through engine room walkways and cabs or removing roof panels to lift them out.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Baby Deltic

[dibber25]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The more I look at these locos the more fascinating they get...

 

latest observation is these things are all doors...

 

3 pairs of engine room access doors on each side, 1 pair of nose end doors each end, 4 driving cab doors...

 

That’s 20 individual human usable access doors on the body, thats before counting access panels.

 

A standard 2nd 57’ mk1 suburban only has 18 doors, a 64ft (as used in 304s etc equals at 20).

 

Was that so NBL guys could swoop on in and scatter gun the repairs ?

 

 

That's an interesting thought. Clearly, accessibility was considered important. I suspect these were built to be primarily functional. Only later, when the BR Design Panel was brought in, did it become important to 'tidy up' the styling so that locos looked 'smooth'. I suspect that, from that point, accessibility slipped further down the agenda. Nose doors, on the other hand, were little-used and a considerable nuisance as they admitted 'the weather' into the cab and got in the way of four-character head code panels, so it's no surprise that they were quickly dropped. (CJL)

[The Stationmaster]

35 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

That's an interesting thought. Clearly, accessibility was considered important. I suspect these were built to be primarily functional. Only later, when the BR Design Panel was brought in, did it become important to 'tidy up' the styling so that locos looked 'smooth'. I suspect that, from that point, accessibility slipped further down the agenda. Nose doors, on the other hand, were little-used and a considerable nuisance as they admitted 'the weather' into the cab and got in the way of four-character head code panels, so it's no surprise that they were quickly dropped. (CJL)

An interesting point about the D6XX is that the BR Publicity Officer, Christian Barman, got involved relatively early in making comments and suggestions about the aesthetics of the NBL design.  He subsequently involved Misha Black from the Design Panel in influencing some aspects of the design - seemingly particularly around the nose ends.

 

If you look at the general layout and appearance of the body without all the louvres and access doors, and particularly the nose end without the headcode discs and lamp irons, there are some quite good design features present.  The livery arrangement with the final design of the horizontal bodyside line would seem to have been 100% down to Misha Black.

[adb968008]

Compared to the class 42/52 with just 4 cab doors, the 35 has a set of double doors.

The class 22 however has 16 doors it seems to be an NBL thing.

I wonder if fitters found all those doors a benefit or pointless.

 

As already mentioned, the end doors weren’t used too often.