Kernow Models D6xx Update

[7013]

Brian I have had a problem with my sound decoder, everything works fine when the loco is going R to L, but change direction (L to R) and it takes off like a banshee.

Turn the loco around and it still happens! I have been through all the setting permutations, and the loco works fine on analogue. Chip is going back for testing. My next test is a decoder without sound just in case there is a problem with the DCC circuitry in the loco.

[luke_stevens]

31 minutes ago, BRIAN T said:

I have just fitted a Zen 21 pin decoder to my splendid Blue D600 ,but the headcode box lighting does not illuminate,all other lighting effects are ok.

id be interested if anyone else has the same problem, Can’t find any other help at the moment, I’m sure they worked in DC mode.

will remove the body and fit blanking plate to check if necessary, but do not like removing body to much as it is quite a tight fit.

I believe that the headcode boxes are on f5 and f6. Some decoders control f5 & f6 as powered function wires and some control them as logic function wires. It will depend on what the circuit board on the D600's requires. Some 6 function decoders can be switched between powered and logic control. I've had a look at the DCC Concepts manual but i haven't found which it is nor if it can be changed.  Sorry I can't be of more help but this may be an explanation of what is happening.

 

Luke

[BRIAN T]

Thanks so far , I’ll keep investigating see if I can sort out this headcode box lighting

[BRIAN T]

Just re inserted the blank plug , and head code box  lights work fine in dc, 

[luke_stevens]

1 minute ago, BRIAN T said:

Just re inserted the blank plug , and head code box  lights work fine in dc, 

Which suggests that the internal wiring is (probable) correct. Sound like a decoder issue.

 

Do Kernow's instructions give any indication as to a decoder recommendation? Do they mention 21MTC?

Luke

[corsair]

5 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

Hi Mike,

Which is the other ship? I didn't notice a different name, but a better boat would be better!

Luke

hi luke the pic is the hia bang da318which is the one kernow quote as the locos being on and that is this right post you found regards mike

[7013]

Unfortunately my Warship DCC problems remain even with a decoder that is known to work well, can only assume it is a circuitry problem with the loco so returning it to Kernow.

[Baby Deltic]

2 hours ago, 7013 said:

Unfortunately my Warship DCC problems remain even with a decoder that is known to work well, can only assume it is a circuitry problem with the loco so returning it to Kernow.

 

You're not using a DCC chip built under licence by NBL are you?

[luke_stevens]

4 hours ago, 7013 said:

Unfortunately my Warship DCC problems remain even with a decoder that is known to work well, can only assume it is a circuitry problem with the loco so returning it to Kernow.

I have an idea.

 

From your experimentation we know 1) it isn't the decoder as you tested 2 and got the same results and 2) it works correctly in one direction.

 

We also know that when it is set to run in the opposite direction there are 4 thing it could receive a) nothing, b) ac, c) controlled dc or d) uncontrolled dc.

 

We know that ti isn't getting a) as it wouldn't move, b) as it would wine /shudder and sound very un happy or c) which is what we would want it to get. So it must be getting d).

 

The only place I can think it could be getting that from is a powered function point. As it is only in one direction it has to be a false connection from either F0 yellow or F0 white.

 

On the 21pin MTC that means a false connection between pin 7 or pin 8 to pin 17 or pin 18. They are miles apart on the decoder socket so somewhere on the circuit board there must be a point where  two are next to each other ans there is a false connection, probably a sloppy solder joint.

 

One think that might be worth trying it to try and run the loco on DCC but with all function wires off. If it is one of the function wires it should then behave.

 

Hope that gives some direction (!)

 

Luke

[luke_stevens]

Info on the 21pin MTC

 

http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/21mtcconnector.html

[7013]

Thank you Luke for your analysis and suggestions. Apart from messing about with CVs etc. I am of the school that if it does not work correctly out of the box I return it whence it came from so they can a) fix the problem, b) send me a replacement or c) refund me. I don’t want a refund and a new loco would be the best outcome a repaired one the next best option.

[BRIAN T]

22 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

Which suggests that the internal wiring is (probable) correct. Sound like a decoder issue.

 

Do Kernow's instructions give any indication as to a decoder recommendation? Do they mention 21MTC?

Luke

Hi the paperwork just quotes a 21 pin  6 function decoder and function 3 and 4 for the headcode lights

thanks

[luke_stevens]

20 minutes ago, BRIAN T said:

Hi the paperwork just quotes a 21 pin  6 function decoder and function 3 and 4 for the headcode lights

thanks

Hm...

They have not been particularly helpful as that can apply to both types of 21pin MTC.

The question is: are f3 and f4 power or logic outputs?

Probably best to contact them and either ask the above question or ask which is the 21pin decoder they recommend

Not a brilliant way of doing things but it would get things moving forward.

Luke

[luke_stevens]

I've just dropped Kernow a message:

 

"Techincal DCC question!

Hi, the D600 warships use a 21pin decoder with the headcode boxes being f3 and f4. Different 21pin decoders use f3 and f4 differently. Do I need a decoder that manages these as power outputs or are they logic outputs? Thanks, Luke

PS what is your recommended decoder for the D600's with headcode boxes?"

 

I'll post what response I get.

 

Luke

[SJR]

15 hours ago, 7013 said:

Thank you Luke for your analysis and suggestions. Apart from messing about with CVs etc. I am of the school that if it does not work correctly out of the box I return it whence it came from so they can a) fix the problem, b) send me a replacement or c) refund me. I don’t want a refund and a new loco would be the best outcome a repaired one the next best option.

I had a similar problem with my 10203.

I removed the PCB and returned that to Kernow rather than shipping the entire loco back from New Zealand.

Kernow replaced the PCB which I reinstalled and the loco now runs as it should.

Regards

Simon

[adb968008]

Just a note of caution, my experience, 

 

I have 3 class 41’s on order, prepaid in July 2017,  two arrived today one has not yet (K2603), Pre-orders from years before.

 

Since then I’ve adjusted my interest, and today asked if it would be possible to swap my pre-paid, not yet despatched K2603 for a current in stock K2601.

 

I was told no, I would need to cancel my order for K2603 and order a new K2601. This incurs a £20 price increase + i’d need to repay £15 in vouchers I got when I ordered at the lower price, so £35 to change my mind to a different livery. (At no point I’ve suggested cancelling, refunding or changing to something other than a 41).

 

Result, I’ve a K2603 to dump on ebay as soon as it arrives, I’ve cancelled some other pre-orders today as I don’t want to be caught in this situation again, it shows the risks of a pre-pay model, be it crowd fund or advance payment.

 

Rules are rules, bit surprised how harsh that was, and if that’s it, then I accept, not looking for a debate, just want to share my experience. Loyal customer since 2010, £ several k spend.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by adb968008

[BRIAN T]

23 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

I've just dropped Kernow a message:

 

"Techincal DCC question!

Hi, the D600 warships use a 21pin decoder with the headcode boxes being f3 and f4. Different 21pin decoders use f3 and f4 differently. Do I need a decoder that manages these as power outputs or are they logic outputs? Thanks, Luke

PS what is your recommended decoder for the D600's with headcode boxes?"

 

I'll post what response I get.

 

Luke

Thanks Luke , much appreciated

Brian

[luke_stevens]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

<snip>

 

Since then I’ve adjusted my interest, and today asked if it would be possible to swap my pre-paid, not yet despatched K2603 for a current in stock K2601.

 

I was told no, I would need to cancel my order for K2603 and order a new K2601. This incurs a £20 price increase + i’d need to repay £15 in vouchers I got when I ordered at the lower price, so £35 to change my mind to a different livery. (At no point I’ve suggested cancelling, refunding or changing to something other than a 41).

 

<snip>

 

I had a similar experience when I asked to change my unweathered DJ Cl71 to a weathered Dj Cl71. Had to pay the increased price from my original crowd-fund price to the final weathered delivery price. I just took it on the chin (maybe too British), but the weathered Cl71 is  worth it!

 

Luke

[luke_stevens]

1 hour ago, BRIAN T said:

Thanks Luke , much appreciated

Brian

Nothing yet...

 

Luke

[luke_stevens]

We have an answer...

 

"Sorry I don't know the answer to the technical part.  We have been using Dapol Imperium or Lenz Silver.  Bachmann 36-557 is not suitable, hope this helps.  Regards Chris"

 

On first reading this sound negative , but it isn't! It confirms that f3 and f4 are treated as logic outputs

 

Dapol Imperium has 6 functions, with f3 and f4 being logic

Lenz Silver only has 5 functions

There are 2 different versions of the Bachmann 36-557. The earlier one shouldn't work but the later one should.

ESU Loksound V5 do 2 versions of the 21pin one for each requirement with "58419 LokSound 5 DCC" and "58429 LokSound 5 DCC 21MTC" being the correct ones

ESU LokPilot has 6 functions; 4 power and 2 logic.

Zimo's MX634 can be changed from on to the other with CV 8

DCC Concepts are all powered functions so wont operate f3 and f4 as logic

 

In terms of others the Zimo website has available a download of the Hornby Magazine review of 21pin decoders from August 18 which is very useful!

 

http://www.zimo.at/web2010/aboutus/Hornby Magazine 08.18 p34-37.pdf

 

(I hope I can post this here. If not can Mods please advise and I'll remove)

 

More info on the 21pin decoder

 

https://dccwiki.com/21MTC_Connector

 

Hopefully this had made things more clear not less!

 

Luke

 

PS I have no link with any manufactures

 

Edit I corrected the ESU decoder codes to better match the info provided in the ESU maual. 02/05/19

Edited May 2, 2019 by luke_stevens

[Gwiwer]

The first of the blue ones has arrived here.  Not, as anticipated, the long-awaited one from the initial batch but the very recently-ordered small yellow panel D602 Bulldog.  This is the first one I have with headcode boxes which look to be well represented and have representative headcodes inserted behind the glazing.  The only minor issue is - in common with the green ones - some glue leakage around the nameplate (on one side only) which rook some quite careful work o remove without damaging the body itself.

 

I have emailed Camborne just to check that the other blue one is indeed on its way since it was paid for in full.  It surprised me that they were not both in the same parcel.  While they were not on the same order the parcel also contained other items on different orders.  I'm sure all is well; I just wanted to ask.

[adb968008]

I have two blue ones...

 

FYE and HYE, been here for a week now.

 

Oh what big eyes they have..

 

Ooh how many doors you have...

And a peck on the cheek..

 

Size comparison of Active, Bulldog and Defiant..

 

When Kernow first announced this model, the class 68 hadnt even been ordered by DRS yet.

 

under the hood, body / chassis is clip fit, quite tight fitting.

 

I’m not an expert on decoders, but that looks bigger than your average blank pin ? - anyone ?

 

Drive on 4 of the 6 axles (just like the real thing).

 

Cab / Tail lamps can be turned on/off

 

 

Has a good turn of speed, if not a tad power hungry to its peers (art mimicking life perhaps ?), starts at 0.02amp, peaks at 0.24amp.

 

 

Very close paint match to Dapols Western, as is the style of box and extra fittings carton for that matter.

 

 

Ironically just last week I learned Ive seen one of these locos, D601 in July 1976, I was 18months old, but my dads spotting records noted he stopped to visit the yard on the way to Butlins at Barry Island (note his priority on the way there, not during or back). I still have memories of my 1981/4/7 visits, but by then it had gone.

 

Reading the certificates, it suggests BR had bigger plans for these diesels, D600 was only painted blue for a few months prior to withdrawal, whilst D602 was sent to Wales for crew training a month before withdrawal.

 

 

All in all, this is a very nice model.

 

(psst, wouldnt these have looked good in BR Civil engineers Dutch livery?)

Edited April 25, 2019 by adb968008

[luke_stevens]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

<snip)

(psst, wouldnt these have looked good in BR Civil engineers Dutch livery?)

<snip>

 

They would have been impressive in BR Railfreight red stripe too!

 

Luke

[brenn]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I have two blue ones...

 

FYE and HYE, been here for a week now.

 

Oh what big eyes they have..

 

Ooh how many doors you have...

And a peck on the cheek..

 

Size comparison of Active, Bulldog and Defiant..

 

When Kernow first announced this model, the class 68 hadnt even been ordered by DRS yet.

 

under the hood, body / chassis is clip fit, quite tight fitting.

 

I’m not an expert on decoders, but that looks bigger than your average blank pin ? - anyone ?

 

Drive on 4 of the 6 axles (just like the real thing).

 

Cab / Tail lamps can be turned on/off

 

 

Has a good turn of speed, if not a tad power hungry to its peers (art mimicking life perhaps ?), starts at 0.02amp, peaks at 0.24amp.

 

 

Very close paint match to Dapols Western, as is the style of box and extra fittings carton for that matter.

 

 

Ironically just last week I learned Ive seen one of these locos, D601 in July 1976, I was 18months old, but my dads spotting records noted he stopped to visit the yard on the way to Butlins at Barry Island (note his priority on the way there, not during or back). I still have memories of my 1981/4/7 visits, but by then it had gone.

 

Reading the certificates, it suggests BR had bigger plans for these diesels, D600 was only painted blue for a few months prior to withdrawal, whilst D602 was sent to Wales for crew training a month before withdrawal.

 

 

All in all, this is a very nice model.

 

(psst, wouldnt these have looked good in BR Civil engineers Dutch livery?)

Are the headcode panel numbers fixed or do they come on a  number sheet

 

B

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m not an expert on decoders, but that looks bigger than your average blank pin ? - anyone ?

I fitted D601 with a TCS EU 621 decoder today. The connector underneath the blanking plate is completely standard so no need to worry there, although the plate itself doens't look like any I've seen before.

 

Incidentally, under the blanking plate was a capacitor. I left this alone as I don't know what it does, but should I remove it as is the received wisdom for DC suppression capacitors?