Kernow Models D6xx Update

[ian_penfold@btinternet.com]

16 hours ago, 7013 said:

This is the email I received from Kernow, very helpful and friendly as always.

 ‘We have now examined the loco and can find no fault with it. We would have replaced it anyway, but as you have fitted detail to it, we will be returning the same loco to you with some instructions on how to get it work properly.

Unfortunately, some sound providers have sold sound decoders for a Warship (presumably a Class 43) which has been set up for running in the Bachmann B-B version. Had they waited to get one of our A-1-A A-1-A locos, they could have configured their decoder to run correctly with the coreless motor therein.

The back-EMF settings have to be just right for the type of motor and clearly, the decoder you have is not set up for our loco.

South West Digital have supplied us with some CVs, which when entered on an ESU chip will see it run correctly.

When you receive your loco back, please set the following CVs accordingly;’

CV2 - 2

CV5 - 255

CV53 - 140

CV54 - 10

CV55 - 10

Yes, had exactly the same issue and got the same very quick and helpful response from Kernow.  It made a huge difference, I have a pair of these locos so easy to rule out unique fault.  All mine have been replicated on both locos.  I do indeed have a pair of Howes (ESA) sound chips set up for the class 43.  My expectation that this would simply work in the 41 were clear misguided!  Howes have been working in parallel on establishing a working setup and have offered to re-programme both chips if I sent them in which I will over the weekend.  Still do not have working headcodes which I assume will work when the chips come back (Howes seemed confident).  However, I now have a new problem on both locos.  Neither of them can handle any sort of load.  They will troll around happily light engine but put any sort of load on them and they shudder to a halt after a very short period.  Really are some quite alarming sound effects and flickering of tail lights!  If I turn the power off the loco resets and engines start up again.   See video -   Anyone seen anything like this / got any ideas?

  

[Baby Deltic]

39 minutes ago, ian_penfold@btinternet.com said:

Yes, had exactly the same issue and got the same very quick and helpful response from Kernow.  It made a huge difference, I have a pair of these locos so easy to rule out unique fault.  All mine have been replicated on both locos.  I do indeed have a pair of Howes (ESA) sound chips set up for the class 43.  My expectation that this would simply work in the 41 were clear misguided!  Howes have been working in parallel on establishing a working setup and have offered to re-programme both chips if I sent them in which I will over the weekend.  Still do not have working headcodes which I assume will work when the chips come back (Howes seemed confident).  However, I now have a new problem on both locos.  Neither of them can handle any sort of load.  They will troll around happily light engine but put any sort of load on them and they shudder to a halt after a very short period.  Really are some quite alarming sound effects and flickering of tail lights!  If I turn the power off the loco resets and engines start up again.   See video -   Anyone seen anything like this / got any ideas?

  

 

Probably extra authenticity built into the model. I think the real ones stopped and made funny noises when under load.

 

Sounds like something is grabbing too much current and starving everything else including the motor and sound chip. Have you tried removing the chips and fitting a blanking plug and trying them on straight DC?

[ian_penfold@btinternet.com]

3 minutes ago, Baby Deltic said:

 

Probably extra authenticity built into the model. I think the real ones stopped and made funny noises when under load.

 

Sounds like something is grabbing too much current and starving everything else including the motor and sound chip. Have you tried removing the chips and fitting a blanking plug and trying them on straight DC?

Yes, they seemed fine on DC although I cannot run then under load as only have rolling road for this setup.

[7013]

Got my D601 back from Kernow today and put the suggested CVs in, now works perfectly, big thanks to Kernow for their first class service. I have not tried my loco with a load on, will do that on our club test track next week, hopefully there will be no problems. Yours (Ian) sounds a bit worrying, did you put the CVs that Kernow suggest in, if not ites worth trying.

[ian_penfold@btinternet.com]

7013 - yes, used Kernow's CVs and they made all the initial problems (except no headcodes) go away.  Allowed me to move onto the next one!  Interesting comment about grabbing too much current above and earlier on the tread there was comment about the loco being power hunger.   Maybe something in this (just about to go and play and see if I can narrow it down).  Chap at Howes was surprised to see the video as he had everything working well on one he had.....  fun and games.

[MG 7305]

except no headcodes

 

I too cannot get the headcode boxed to light up on DCC although they work as advertised on DC.  In this case I have fitted a Zimo MX638D, 1 A motor output and 6 functions.  Email sent so I look forward to a reply.

[7013]

One thing to check is that all the plugs that plug into the pcb are all in correctly, I found that one of mine although it looked like it was plugged in was in actual fact just sitting in the end of the socket, worth a try. 

Another thing that has occurred to me is when fitting a non sound decoder, will it have to be ‘tuned’ to the motor in the same way. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has fitted a non sound decoder, what type and does it work without problems.?

[MG 7305]

My Zimo MX638D runs the motor, head and tail lamps as appropriate (F0) and the cab lights (F1 and F2).  All dialled in with extended addressing, amended acceleration, deceleration and speed settings.   I also use the uncoupler feature of Zimo decoders.  All these a fine.  But no headcode lights.  I have gone back to the factory setting both in DC and DCC except for extended addressing, no joy in DCC but  they work in DC.  I look forward to the official response from Kernow.

Best regards

[Bob83a]

1 hour ago, MG 7305 said:

My Zimo MX638D runs the motor, head and tail lamps as appropriate (F0) and the cab lights (F1 and F2).  All dialled in with extended addressing, amended acceleration, deceleration and speed settings.   I also use the uncoupler feature of Zimo decoders.  All these a fine.  But no headcode lights.  I have gone back to the factory setting both in DC and DCC except for extended addressing, no joy in DCC but  they work in DC.  I look forward to the official response from Kernow.

Best regards

Have you tried resetting it by writing 3 to cv8. There was a previous discussion about the mx634d. Using this reset I think changes the D version to a C, Ie MX638C.  the aux3/4 outputs are changed from power levels to logic. It depends on which 21MTC standard is used by the model.

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, 7013 said:

One thing to check is that all the plugs that plug into the pcb are all in correctly, I found that one of mine although it looked like it was plugged in was in actual fact just sitting in the end of the socket, worth a try. 

Another thing that has occurred to me is when fitting a non sound decoder, will it have to be ‘tuned’ to the motor in the same way. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has fitted a non sound decoder, what type and does it work without problems.?

I've fitted a TCS EU 621 to D601. All is good so far although I have still to tune the inertia a little. Once I've got it running the way I want I'll try to remember to post the settings here.

[7013]

Slightly off this thread, Bob 83A I had a similar problem on my Heljan Western. Headcodes light up perfectly on DC. As soon as I chipped it, no headcode lights, went through a few functions but gave up in the end. This was a Loksound v4 chip though.

[45568]

Having received my D601 'ARK ROYAL' a few weeks ago I have been more than happy with both looks and performance of the model. However, one detail that seemed to jar was the nameplate size; they seemed a little under-nourished compared to prototype photographs.

 I ordered a set of etched plates from Fox, Modelmaster do every other class member except D601! The differences are shown in the attached pix.

The first shows the two plate sizes, Fox on the right. The other two the Fox and original in position on the loco. To my mind, the Fox plate is visually more correct.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

 

[cctransuk]

28 minutes ago, 45568 said:

To my mind, the Fox plate is visually more correct.
 

 

 

Having done a proportional comparison of a broadside photo of the prototype, and compared it with your photos, I find that the length of the prototype nameplate was 0.60, or thereabouts, of the space between the two adjacent windows.

 

As for the model 'plates; the Kernow one is 0.49 and the Fox one 0.62.

 

These measurements would seem to suggest that the Kernow 'plate is indeed somewhat short, whereas the Fox 'plate is marginally too long.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[luke_stevens]

7 hours ago, 7013 said:

Slightly off this thread, Bob 83A I had a similar problem on my Heljan Western. Headcodes light up perfectly on DC. As soon as I chipped it, no headcode lights, went through a few functions but gave up in the end. This was a Loksound v4 chip though.

If I remember correctly the Heljan Western was a 8 pin decoder with the white and yellow wires (f0f and f0r) being powered. An 8pin loco working correctly but with no lights is usually because the decoder has been plugged in reversed by 180 degrees. Rotating the plug should bring the lights back under control.

 

Luke

[7013]

Have run my D601 with a rake of five Mk1s, it ran perfectly throughout, easily starting on straights and curves, no signs of the problems Ian (Penfold) is experiencing. In fact the sound is superb and the loco is smooth and powerful, I am really happy with this loco which is right up there with the best

[luke_stevens]

On 04/05/2019 at 14:18, ian_penfold@btinternet.com said:

See video -   Anyone seen anything like this / got any ideas?

 

 

After smooth running on straight track (proving it works) it suddenly doesn't. Hmm.

Q) how recently did you ballast that section? It sounds like there is a very intermittent pick-up. What is it like if you run the loco with the same load but sound off? It should run further. How does it run on that section with no trailing loads?

A) make sure there is no ballast above the height of the chairs which is lifting the wheels of the loco or providing resistance to the wheels of the coaches.

A) clean the inside of the radius of the rail head. Most pick up is not from the top of the rail but from.the inside edge.

Q) how do other sound loco perform on this stretch with the same load? Ideally a 6 axle loco with sound (say a Dapol Western)

Q) does that piece of track have enough power feeds? Maybe an extra feed would help.

Q) what sort of track rubber are you using? Some (gaugemaster) can leave a stick residue with particles.

From what I can see I would say it is more a track / pickup issue than a loco one.

Good luck!

Luke

[Jamiel]

This might be of some interest in a historical, and no doubt legal sense.

DJM have made an announcement about registering his designs with the UK Government to prevent others taking them and using other manufacturers to produce them.

https://djmodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DJM-release-010519.pdf

Much debate, little positive towards DJM on the RMweb thread (page 6 when the announcement was made public, prior to that it is speculation) - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/144187-dj-models-announcement-010519/page/6/

Registered design (September 2018) of the D600 Warship.

https://www.registered-design.service.gov.uk/find/6043482
 

I doubt this will affect the models coming out of Kernow, and this thread has had various reports of the difficulties in getting the model to be completed. No doubt some lawyers or solicitors may be typing away at their keyboards on the behalf of DJM, Kernow and other manufacturers and suppliers with regard to what this means.

Jamie

[Roy Langridge]

Please, let's not start a discussion on the DJ announcement in this thread, one is quite enough to depress me.

 

Roy

[Gwiwer]

On the nameplate question I too thought they might be under-sized. Given that a couple have to come off anyway because they are fitted at a very slight (but noticeable) angle I’ll invest in the Fox plates which I have used on all my 8xx Warships among other types. 

 

It’s not a major issue and does not detract from the overall quality of these locos which is superb. Most observers wouldn’t even notice. I didn’t until the matter was raised here. 

 

Four in stock. Two imminent. Assuming I receive the confirmation I have been promised one,  maybe two, will be included in my weathering demonstration at Hayle MRC over the late May holiday weekend. 

['CHARD]

No need at all to revisit the DJM guff over here, please. 

 

In relevant news, I'm interested to now how order fulfilment is going; I reckon I placed mine in September 2018 or thereabouts, and I'm wondering how far down the list Chris's lads have reached...

[metadyneman]

Oh dear, I seem to be encountering the same DCC problem as a few on here. I am using the Bachmann 36-557 ( ESU Lokpilot standard) in mine and have configured all the CVs as mentioned above (apart from CV5 which only goes up to 64). Loco runs fine with 8 Bachmann coaches for about 10 minutes then slows to a grinding halt with all lights dimmed and will only move a little when pushed!  Anyone else have this problem?

[ian_penfold@btinternet.com]

23 hours ago, 7013 said:

Have run my D601 with a rake of five Mk1s, it ran perfectly throughout, easily starting on straights and curves, no signs of the problems Ian (Penfold) is experiencing. In fact the sound is superb and the loco is smooth and powerful, I am really happy with this loco which is right up there with the best

7013... what chip are you using?

 

[ian_penfold@btinternet.com]

20 hours ago, luke_stevens said:

 

After smooth running on straight track (proving it works) it suddenly doesn't. Hmm.

Q) how recently did you ballast that section? It sounds like there is a very intermittent pick-up. What is it like if you run the loco with the same load but sound off? It should run further. How does it run on that section with no trailing loads?

A) make sure there is no ballast above the height of the chairs which is lifting the wheels of the loco or providing resistance to the wheels of the coaches.

A) clean the inside of the radius of the rail head. Most pick up is not from the top of the rail but from.the inside edge.

Q) how do other sound loco perform on this stretch with the same load? Ideally a 6 axle loco with sound (say a Dapol Western)

Q) does that piece of track have enough power feeds? Maybe an extra feed would help.

Q) what sort of track rubber are you using? Some (gaugemaster) can leave a stick residue with particles.

From what I can see I would say it is more a track / pickup issue than a loco one.

Good luck!

Luke

Luke, really appreciate the help here but pretty sure the track is sound:

• Everything else runs fine.
• It happens consistently only with the two D600's I have.
• Kernow, who are being very supportive and working to help, tell me it has happened elsewhere (obviously not a lot otherwise it would have come to notice earlier).
• We have been playing with CV53.  With this I can extend the time it take to stop but not fix the problem.  
• Theory is that it is something to do with the motor overloading by drawing too much power (there was a comment earlier about the motor being hungry on power, not sure how relevant this is).
• It does not really feel like a contact thing.  That produces more of a jerking but this is a screaming to a halt in a very consistent manner.  Also, when I turn the power of the loco somehow resets.  The engines restart without any intervention and it will reset, until it does it again.

One more piece of news.  Dropped a non sound Zen chip into one of them.  Works a treat..... 12 carriages, no issues.

 

I strongly suspect there is noting wrong with either the loco's or the chips, it is the combination that is the problem (in fairness I bought a sound chip optimised for the Bachmann 43!)  Howes, who supplied the ESU chip are also be very helpful... we will get there in the end.

 

[ian_penfold@btinternet.com]

1 hour ago, metadyneman said:

Oh dear, I seem to be encountering the same DCC problem as a few on here. I am using the Bachmann 36-557 ( ESU Lokpilot standard) in mine and have configured all the CVs as mentioned above (apart from CV5 which only goes up to 64). Loco runs fine with 8 Bachmann coaches for about 10 minutes then slows to a grinding halt with all lights dimmed and will only move a little when pushed!  Anyone else have this problem?

Hi, does it look the same as my problem above (Bulldog screaming to a stop in the video!)   If it is the same problem as mine it should simply restart if the power is closed off to allow it to reset.  Also.  Are the lights flickering after it has stopped?  On mine they will flicker (with supporting sound effect!) until the power is shut off..

[metadyneman]

13 minutes ago, ian_penfold@btinternet.com said:

Hi, does it look the same as my problem above (Bulldog screaming to a stop in the video!)   If it is the same problem as mine it should simply restart if the power is closed off to allow it to reset.  Also.  Are the lights flickering after it has stopped?  On mine they will flicker (with supporting sound effect!) until the power is shut off..

It is similar but mine glides to a stop silently as though someone has just shut the power off and all the lights then dim and flicker. No amount of turning the power down to zero makes it move again. the only thing that will get any movement out of it is if I physically remove it from the track for 10 minutes and do it all over again. I have e-mailed Kernow saying there definitely is a problem and it seems something, somewhere is drawing too much power. The decoder also gets very warm almost too hot when it stops no matter what decoder I put in it.. I've tried 4 different ones now.