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Kernow Models D6xx Update


Andy Y
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I use a Loksound V5 as supplied by DC kits (Legomanbiffo) But it is not one of their sound files, I believe it is a Howes sound file. My loco runs fine with no issues. I did notice the roof was a little warm after prolonged running, but nothing to be alarmed about (I hope). Kernow use and recommend a Dapol Imperium 21 pin decoder in their DCC fitted locos. I will probably use one of those in my next Warship, but I haven’t ascertained whether the CVs have to be adjusted to take into account the coreless motor. 

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4 hours ago, 7013 said:

I use a Loksound V5 as supplied by DC kits (Legomanbiffo) But it is not one of their sound files, I believe it is a Howes sound file. My loco runs fine with no issues. I did notice the roof was a little warm after prolonged running, but nothing to be alarmed about (I hope). Kernow use and recommend a Dapol Imperium 21 pin decoder in their DCC fitted locos. I will probably use one of those in my next Warship, but I haven’t ascertained whether the CVs have to be adjusted to take into account the coreless motor. 

 

 

Same source and type for my mine and its always worked fine for me. Bought  from their stand at Ally Pally  show (where they had their D601 running happily) I did adopt some of the settings that were supplied by Kernow for I think a slightly improved set off sound.

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On 04/05/2019 at 12:18, ian_penfold@btinternet.com said:

Yes, had exactly the same issue and got the same very quick and helpful response from Kernow.  It made a huge difference, I have a pair of these locos so easy to rule out unique fault.  All mine have been replicated on both locos.  I do indeed have a pair of Howes (ESA) sound chips set up for the class 43.  My expectation that this would simply work in the 41 were clear misguided!  Howes have been working in parallel on establishing a working setup and have offered to re-programme both chips if I sent them in which I will over the weekend.  Still do not have working headcodes which I assume will work when the chips come back (Howes seemed confident).  However, I now have a new problem on both locos.  Neither of them can handle any sort of load.  They will troll around happily light engine but put any sort of load on them and they shudder to a halt after a very short period.  Really are some quite alarming sound effects and flickering of tail lights!  If I turn the power off the loco resets and engines start up again.   See video -   Anyone seen anything like this / got any ideas?

  

 

Now that is interesting......

I have not been running my two warships on DCC but with D604 Cossack I get a virtually identical result to you but on DC.

Following a bad experience with Hornby's class 71 lights I automatically measure max volts on my layout and limit it to 12V.

Put simply D601 Ark Royal runs perfectly on 12V pulling  14 coaches any time for any period

Once warmed up for about 20 mins, D604 Cossack will then only pull 10 coaches on 12V  - any more than 10 coaches e.g. 12 and it comes to a stop and all the lights go out. The first time it happened after about 4-5 mins of 12V high speed running. This is not a short cct situation as 12V still appears on the track and If I put D601 or any other loco on the same track w/o adjusting anything else they run whilst D604 just sits there. If I then just lift D601 off, then turn the power off and then back onto 12V, D604 restarts runs for a few seconds with 12 coaches and then dies again, If I tip D604 momentarily on its side to break contact it starts and then stops within seconds, if I push the loco there is little resistance but again it refuses to light up or run. If I leave it for say 30 mins it will run for a short period at 12V with 12 coaches before failing again. This is repeatable over and again.  If I cut the load to 10 coaches or cut the volts to a lower figure D604 runs ok ad infinitum. I have used a Safety Minor, a Gaugemaster H/H, and the DA Cole controller and the fault is consistent. I sent it back to Kernow who were very good - they replaced it w/o question just like that but the replacement has exactly the same problem . My solution was cowardice - I accept that at 12V Cossack will pull 10 coaches but Ark Royal is reserved for the 12+ coach trains, and in general I do not run locos for that duration and normally my trains are limited to 8-9 coaches so it is not a major issue.  I only found the problem as part of my running in process, but if it was on the garden layout ??.

Thinking the problem thro it is unlikely to be a dry joint as it is an identical fault on 2 locos, it is unlikely to be component failure because it recovers, the only cause I can think of is that there is current sensitive device on the loco PCB - e.g. something like a polyswitch (PPTC) which heats up and only restores power once it cools. This could have been put in to protect the coreless motor from the robust voltages put out by some of the more primitive controllers (if not limited the H&M will pump out 16+Volts and even the GM PSU and H/H will push out well over 12v !!), and that this component was possibly changed during manufacturing process from the original type in D601 to one from a batch that is less tolerant in D604. This would also explain why it takes less and less time to fail after the first time, unless left to recover, and it would also explain why reducing the load reduces failure as this would reduce the current demand of the motor and hence the heat within the component.

I did think of bypassing all the circuitry and connecting the motor direct to the wheel pickups but leaving the PCB connected in parallel to power the lights, to see if that made a difference but chickened out as the damage in getting the loco apart could well have negated the warranty - it really was very stiff to get apart, and as it was/is not a priority I parked doing this until the warranty expires !.

It would be interesting however to get an  experienced electronic engineer's take on this problem.

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5 hours ago, lochlongside said:

 

Now that is interesting......

I have not been running my two warships on DCC but with D604 Cossack I get a virtually identical result to you but on DC.

Following a bad experience with Hornby's class 71 lights I automatically measure max volts on my layout and limit it to 12V.

Put simply D601 Ark Royal runs perfectly on 12V pulling  14 coaches any time for any period

Once warmed up for about 20 mins, D604 Cossack will then only pull 10 coaches on 12V  - any more than 10 coaches e.g. 12 and it comes to a stop and all the lights go out. The first time it happened after about 4-5 mins of 12V high speed running. This is not a short cct situation as 12V still appears on the track and If I put D601 or any other loco on the same track w/o adjusting anything else they run whilst D604 just sits there. If I then just lift D601 off, then turn the power off and then back onto 12V, D604 restarts runs for a few seconds with 12 coaches and then dies again, If I tip D604 momentarily on its side to break contact it starts and then stops within seconds, if I push the loco there is little resistance but again it refuses to light up or run. If I leave it for say 30 mins it will run for a short period at 12V with 12 coaches before failing again. This is repeatable over and again.  If I cut the load to 10 coaches or cut the volts to a lower figure D604 runs ok ad infinitum. I have used a Safety Minor, a Gaugemaster H/H, and the DA Cole controller and the fault is consistent. I sent it back to Kernow who were very good - they replaced it w/o question just like that but the replacement has exactly the same problem . My solution was cowardice - I accept that at 12V Cossack will pull 10 coaches but Ark Royal is reserved for the 12+ coach trains, and in general I do not run locos for that duration and normally my trains are limited to 8-9 coaches so it is not a major issue.  I only found the problem as part of my running in process, but if it was on the garden layout ??.

Thinking the problem thro it is unlikely to be a dry joint as it is an identical fault on 2 locos, it is unlikely to be component failure because it recovers, the only cause I can think of is that there is current sensitive device on the loco PCB - e.g. something like a polyswitch (PPTC) which heats up and only restores power once it cools. This could have been put in to protect the coreless motor from the robust voltages put out by some of the more primitive controllers (if not limited the H&M will pump out 16+Volts and even the GM PSU and H/H will push out well over 12v !!), and that this component was possibly changed during manufacturing process from the original type in D601 to one from a batch that is less tolerant in D604. This would also explain why it takes less and less time to fail after the first time, unless left to recover, and it would also explain why reducing the load reduces failure as this would reduce the current demand of the motor and hence the heat within the component.

I did think of bypassing all the circuitry and connecting the motor direct to the wheel pickups but leaving the PCB connected in parallel to power the lights, to see if that made a difference but chickened out as the damage in getting the loco apart could well have negated the warranty - it really was very stiff to get apart, and as it was/is not a priority I parked doing this until the warranty expires !.

It would be interesting however to get an  experienced electronic engineer's take on this problem.

I'm not an electrical engineer but when I fitted a (non-sound) TCS EU 621 chip to D601 I noticed what I thought was a capacitor on the PCB that was concealed when the blanking plate or chip are in position. I left it alone as I wasn't sure what it was or what it was for (I usually remove suppression capacitors). Perhaps it isn't a capacitor after all but a polyswitch as you suggest? I haven't run D601 under load yet so I don't know whether I have the problem described.

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It could be a breakdown in a component on the board or maybe a defective noise filter capacitor leaking DC at higher voltage causing a short. Not sure if there are any zener diodes on the board. It does sound current related rather than voltage. An increase in load will cause an increase in current draw. A loco working on 10V will need to draw more current to produce the same power than one on 12V because P=IV. Power is current multiplied by voltage.

Edited by Baby Deltic
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Are we certain that those of you who are having problems with the Loksound 5 decoder are using the correct version, i.e. a version that has Aux 3 and 4 as logic level? It appears that there are 7 version of Loksound 5 (excluding micro and XL etc.) and only two have these functions as logic. If there is any doubt, have you tried disconnecting the headcode box lights and seeing if the same problem is there?

 

Roy

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I am running a non sound Zimo MX638 (I have read the decoder manual VERY carefully and programmed it properly) and the model ran well but early on the lights would go out for 2 to 5 seconds from time to time (six bogies and a 1 in 50 gradient.)  However with continued running the lights remain on and all is well.  I too surmised that something was probably being protected (not the decoder, I have 70 other Zimo decoders that work perfectly and they are very robust.)  I suspect that the additional running meant that the running in process needs to be completed and then the model should take less power to operate.

Best regards

Julian

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7 hours ago, lochlongside said:

...I have not been running my two warships on DCC but with D604 Cossack I get a virtually identical result to you but on DC.

Following a bad experience with Hornby's class 71 lights I automatically measure max volts on my layout and limit it to 12V.

Put simply D601 Ark Royal runs perfectly on 12V pulling  14 coaches any time for any period

Once warmed up for about 20 mins, D604 Cossack will then only pull 10 coaches on 12V  - any more than 10 coaches e.g. 12 and it comes to a stop and all the lights go out. The first time it happened after about 4-5 mins of 12V high speed running. This is not a short cct situation as 12V still appears on the track and If I put D601 or any other loco on the same track w/o adjusting anything else they run whilst D604 just sits there ...

It would be interesting however to get an  experienced electronic engineer's take on this problem.

Just taking this as a typical example of the problem reports. Surely it is Kernow that need to see this problem description, because they should be in possession of the circuit diagram and information on the design intent; specifically is there any motor protection in the circuit and what is its intended operation?

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11 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Just taking this as a typical example of the problem reports. Surely it is Kernow that need to see this problem description, because they should be in possession of the circuit diagram and information on the design intent; specifically is there any motor protection in the circuit and what is its intended operation?

 I agree, this needs to be brought to Kernow Model's attention because it seems there is a common theme running though the problem.. i.e the loco just limps to a stop after a period of running,

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20 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

No need at all to revisit the DJM guff over here, please. 

 

In relevant news, I'm interested to now how order fulfilment is going; I reckon I placed mine in September 2018 or thereabouts, and I'm wondering how far down the list Chris's lads have reached...

My bysp d602 was ordered after that date and its here,got a green one on the third boat still to come.

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I don’t know if the following is of any use to you or not, but…

 

My D600 is fitted with a Dapol Imperium 21-pin decoder. I have just put in on the rolling road for one hour on step 80 of 128 with all lights on.

There has been no perceivable change in performance over that time. The loco body has got slightly warm above the decoder but not worryingly so. The current draw fluctuates between 0.1 and 0.2 amps – which is less than many Heljan locos and similar to most Bachmann locos. If I apply a slight downward pressure to the loco to simulate a load, I get a current draw of 0.2 to 0.3 amps.

 

Roy

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4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I'm not an electrical engineer but when I fitted a (non-sound) TCS EU 621 chip to D601 I noticed what I thought was a capacitor on the PCB that was concealed when the blanking plate or chip are in position. I left it alone as I wasn't sure what it was or what it was for (I usually remove suppression capacitors). Perhaps it isn't a capacitor after all but a polyswitch as you suggest? I haven't run D601 under load yet so I don't know whether I have the problem described.

Just as a matter of interest has anyone on here actually taken the plunge and removed the capacitor like component from the circuit board?

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1 hour ago, Richard Croft said:

I've been working on a sound file for the D600 over the last few weeks, on the Loksound 5. Its set up properly top operate all the lights including the head codes and the cab lights which work directionally. Like other sound files it's based on a German loco with a Man engine but I have worked hard to give this some of the modern features that some of the other sound files lack. it has playable horns, manual brakes and drive lock for example. I have done a quick demo video below and I'd welcome any feedback good or bad so I can make sure its as good as it can possibly be. I will be selling it on V5 decoders as well as offering it as a reblow (Loksound only) for anyone who already has one. Mines fitted with an EM2 which needed a small amount of milling but it would work well with other speakers too.

 

 

 

Richard

That's really impressive, but at the same time, I can't help thinking it sounds a little Doctor Who time-tunnelish...

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The plot thickens!  I have now managed to replicate the problem running my D600 on DC without a decoder (using a Gaugemaster model D power controller) so the problem is definitely with the loco not the decoders I am using. I had the loco running round the layout with the same rake of 8 Bachmann blue grey mark1 coaches as yesterday and although it took a little longer, the loco eventually ground to a halt and behaved exactly the same way as it did with the decoder. I have resorted to calling Kernow models and I'm now returning my loco to them for either replacement or diagnosis and repair. They still maintain that they have only had a small number of people with problems only relating to sound decoders and it would therefore seem that my problem hasn't really surfaced in any great numbers with them so it is very important if anyone else is experiencing problems that they make Kernow models aware of it so that this matter can be resolved once and for all. Suffice to say after the huge success of the Bulleid diesel, this one is very disappointing so far. Once I have received the loco back from Kernow I will report back with my findings. They seem a little shy on admitting that there is a problem and one clearly seems to be emerging.

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30 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

I’ll try it this afternoon, it can’t make it much worse!

 

Richard

 

Whilst you are inside, I can’t remember whether the wires to the lights are soldered or on connectors. If the latter, is it worth disconnecting them temporarily to see if a reduced load helps. If it does, then perhaps reconnect one at a time to see if one particular light / pair causes an issue?

 

Roy

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2 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

Ok so I've taken the capacitor out, dont! it doesn't work at all without it. the model is just completely dead on the track without it. So anyway I soldered it back in and tried the model with the lights disconnected (and body off) it was better, it ran around my layout with 4 coaches for about 5 minutes, but then the problem came back, so I think the issue with the model can be put down to the motor.

 

Richard

I'm no electronics wizard but how about removing the capacitor and bridging the gap with wire? 

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1 minute ago, metadyneman said:

I'm no electronics wizard but how about removing the capacitor and bridging the gap with wire? 

 

I wouldn't. Think of a capacitor as a battery, it is across the power supply charging and then can supply power back to those lines. If you just bridge it you will most likely shorting something out.

 

Just one question - is it definitely a capacitor? Lots of inductors are packaged looking just like capacitors these days.


Roy

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I think we need to get Kernow models involved in this as it is clearly a problem. As I'm about to send mine back I will wait patiently to see what they come up with. I'm enclosing a letter explaining everything I have tried. (apart from launching it at great velocity over next doors fence!)

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1 minute ago, Richard Croft said:

I did think about that but I'm not sure what function it serves, I know on some models they are wired in parallel to the motor, button this one obviously not or it would still work. I'm not sure about trying it because I dont know what affect it will have on the decoder. Any thoughts?

 

Richard

Probably best not to try then. I still think it is the coreless motor causing the problem to be honest. The loco does get very warm when running and it is known that coreless motors do run hotter than conventional ones. I think this is causing the loco to shut down.

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3 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

Just to confirm, we are talking about this orange part aren’t we?

 

0085B5E3-53D9-454D-9790-78E717F72708.jpeg.697aba96f088bad6525b743a4e2c7b9e.jpeg

 

Richard

 

That is a resettable fuse - not a capacitor. Bridging it will work and maybe solve your problem, but not the cause of the problem.

 

edit: see https://uk.farnell.com/littelfuse/rxef050/polyswitch-0-5a-72v-radial/dp/1175864

 

Roy

 

Edited by Roy Langridge
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2 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

That is a resettable fuse - not a capacitor. Bridging it will work and maybe solve your problem, but not the cause of the problem.

 

edit: see https://uk.farnell.com/littelfuse/rxef050/polyswitch-0-5a-72v-radial/dp/1175864

 

Roy

 

Oooh!  Maybe it's that which is causing the problem then, maybe the motor is sending messages to the resettable fuse to re-set when it gets too hot!

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6 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

Ah, thats interesting, would there be any negatives to removing it?

 

Removing it will make the loco not work as you found out as the supply to something is removed. Bridging it will stop it tripping which is quite possibly the problem you have, but will also remove whatever protection it was designed to offer. Have you measured the current draw you are getting? It will trip either on over-current or over-temperature.

 

Edit: It looks at if it is a 1 amp fuse, perhaps with sound the demand from the motor, decoder and speaker is exceeding that?

 

Roy

Edited by Roy Langridge
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Just now, Richard Croft said:

I'm not sure how to do that to be honest, I have a multimeter if that helps, I believe the Loksound 5 has overload protection? Maybe I could bridge the fuse and rely on the decoder to protect itself?

 

Richard

 

You could try. Does your DCC system not have any means of saying what the current draw is?

 

Roy

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