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Andy Y

Kernow Models D6xx Update

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Hahahaha, I have just noticed in the post above the BTH D82xx is a Heljan one not one of my 8 scratchbuilt ones........and there's me bumbing my gums about building your own.

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Safe to assume you're not in the market for one then ? Oh,is there a rich reward in model railways ? What do you consider to be a "reasonable time scale" ? What do you consider is a "reasonable assumption " ? Are you feeling the pain of being "slapped down " or the discomfiture of being caught out in the teeth of a "froth storm".? And the penalty of being "found out " is ? Why this negativity?

Some of us want this model.We trust Kernow.We are prepared to wait for it to arrive.If it's late,then it's just like its prototype.It'll arrive headed by a Bachmann Modified Hall into Plymouth North Road over Dainton Bank.

I'll entertain you in your self-appointed role as the 'patience police' but please remember every one has an opinion, and there all equally valid as yours and no less valid if they differ.

 

Potential purchaser? Might have one, once I've have had a good look over the finished item. I don't buy blind - got caught once too often. Quite like all the ugly NBLs, but I'm in no hurry. Why would you assume otherwise? You're not intimating your opinion is worth more than mine again, just because you 'want this model' and you thought I didn't, are you?

 

If you are going to quote me then be accurate. You have translated 'handsome' into rich. I didn't say rich. I believe there is handsome reward in model railways (if you get it right) otherwise you wouldn't see so much activity and companies would be shedding staff rather than taking them on.

 

Reasonable timescale? I think, like a few others on here, that within the lifetime of an annual catalogue is reasonable. Perhaps 18 months at a real stretch. That's what used to happen.

 

Reasonable assumption? That companies are in business to make a profit. (is that allowed these days?). Usually, as much as they can.

 

Slapped down? Not at all. I'm of the opinion many might think what would be termed 'opposing' thoughts but don't comment these days, since the disagree button seems to have gone. Surely if you can agree, you must be able to disagree just as easily to give fair balance? (Looking like the EU referendum will go the same way). But you've 'slapped' Mr George down pretty quickly never the less .

 

Froth storm? Nope, just don't understand the need for them so early in the process.

 

Penalty of being 'found out'? I would suggest you are looking at it. The number of people that are starting to get tired of pre-announcements and announcements so advanced as to be counter productive. Look around. People are increasingly scratching around for news, anything, on a 7-year old project like this and much newer ones... DJ models, Oxford, even Bachmann. All after initial fanfares. Someone has said even said Rapido has gone quiet. That's hard to believe, but they've set themselves up now. Sooner or later, some of us will just look at an announcement and say "oh well, I'll forget about that and revisit in X years time to see if it has moved any closer from pipe dream to reality. The frothy coffee quickly goes cold (if not regularly topped up) and sooner or later the milky publicity turns in to sour frustration or cold disenchantment. I suspect some newer brands are close to being actually damaged by it.

 

Negative? I don't think so. There's always two sides to everything and I don't think the downside is given a fair hearing. It like we're all on Prozac. I am just really concerned for the future as it leads to less actual practical modelling (I won't bother to build that kit/scratch/carve it, because I know xxxx is due in the future) and layout blight, whilst waiting for a particular favourite loco, essential to a new layout design, that never turns up. Result: Limboland. Frequent top-ups in the form of useful and informative communication (natural 'highs' if you like) are the solution. Just look at how the mood has changed with regard to Hornby (who are otherwise killing all the model shops)!

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B

Sooner or later, some of us will just look at an announcement and say "oh well, I'll forget about that and revisit in X years time to see if it has moved any closer from pipe dream to reality.

 

That's how most of us already look at it, enjoy the announcement then forget about until it becomes reality. Easy really, saves a lot of angst, give it a try.

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That's how most of us already look at it, enjoy the announcement then forget about until it becomes reality. Easy really, saves a lot of angst, give it a try.

Bad choice of words by me at the end there. You summed it up well, but how can anyone 'forget' something they've already be told about? You can't get a brainwash. If something like the D600 was absolutely fundamental to a major new project, it would always be in the back of your mind and, in a world short of time, would sow at least a seed of doubt with priorities. Do I build? Do I wait? What's best use of my time? And the closer to 'perceived' release, the bigger the issue. See?

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Kernow announced the D6xx on 15th March 2008 at the West of England show.

 

All the reasonable arguments and requests for patience seem to have fallen on a pair of deaf ears.

 

Please show us how you would have done it better for the price.

 

I have every patience with Kernow MRC who as we know from comments above are very frustrated by the long gestation period on this and indeed other models.  We also know, based upon Kernow's newsletter and posts above, that Dapol did nothing with the commission for several years meaning it effectively had to be relaunched with a new manufacturer.  Please vent your frustrations at Dapol for that much.  Kernow has had to start with a blank canvas, no prototype and nothing like the resources of the big players yet has boldly taken commercial decisions to press ahead with this and other announced commissions when they could have simply abandoned hope years ago.  

 

I am also very sure that the lack of product over those years has caused some delay in commissioning other products which we may be interested in.  There comes a time when you cannot go farther out on a financial limb and risk another penny until you get some return on your earlier investments.  We are lucky indeed that the project hasn't caused terminal damage to the business by Dapol's lack of timely attention.  It has certainly moved ahead under Dave Jones and if you want updates then visit the Kernow MRC website and read their newsletters.  The large scale model is complete and the 600s are probably now waiting a slot in the tool room behind the gate stock and what ever else is in DJM's immediate queue.

Edited by Gwiwer
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Bad choice of words by me at the end there. You summed it up well, but how can anyone 'forget' something they've already be told about? You can't get a brainwash. If something like the D600 was absolutely fundamental to a major new project, it would always be in the back of your mind and, in a world short of time, would sow at least a seed of doubt with priorities. Do I build? Do I wait? What's best use of my time? And the closer to 'perceived' release, the bigger the issue. See?

I can't see it personally. I can't think of anywhere where they ran exclusively or to the detriment of other classes. In fact if anything they would tend to play a supporting role in any layout.

 

To not model because someone is waiting for one is just an excuse not to model at all.

 

And if it wasn't the D600, they would be rolling out another excuse.....and another....and another......

Edited by BlackRat

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B

That's how most of us already look at it, enjoy the announcement then forget about until it becomes reality. Easy really, saves a lot of angst, give it a try.

This sums up my position, it may not be right but the situation is what it is and there is not much we as modellers can do about it. If this was a situation peculiar to one manufacturer then it may be different, but all of the manufacturers suffer slippage. Bachmann are being beaten with a stick on this issue on their part of the forum, we all know the problems Hornby have gone through, Dapol have had a torrid few years and Heljan's 05 appears to have been ready for lord knows how long but keeps slipping backwards. And I recently received two Rapido LRC models about two years after their stated delivery date. I think you can either get angry about it or accept it, and oddly because all of the manufacturers suffer the same issue it has the effect of maintaining a reasonably steady stream of new releases, just that they're all late. I do understand the frustration, we'd all like these things to appear when advertised. Personally I'd prefer announcements to be made when models are almost ready, such as the LT S Stock model however then manufacturers are exposed to the commercial risks of somebody else announcing first. Hornby tend to leave their announcements later than competitors with the result they've been accused of copying others a few times when a rival announces the same model. Now in some cases maybe Hornby were copying, but I (maybe naively) believe that in most cases it is nothing more sinister than that they have often kept quiet about projects for longer than rivals.

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Something to keep in mind is that the manufacturers will not see a return on their investment until the things are sold therefore they are much more damaged by slippage than we as consumers are. Tooling a model is a big expense and in the case of DJM and Kernow I suspect (admittedlyI do not know for sure) that it is their own personal risk and that if things go pear shaped they will suffer huge personal pain. To take that risk needs guts, and as such they deserve the financial rewards if it all goes well. They have not tried to offload the risk by going down the road of Locomotion and Rapido, personally I think that deserves huge respect as a gutsy decision to take when rivals are de-risking by asking consumers to pay up front on trust.

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I can't see it personally. I can't think of anywhere where they ran exclusively or to the detriment of other classes. In fact if anything they would tend to play a supporting role in any layout.

 

 

 

You missed the key point in Igors argument

he said

 If something like the D600 was absolutely fundamental to a major new project,

 

 

Reading it properly makes all the difference to understanding his point.

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Something to keep in mind is that the manufacturers will not see a return on their investment until the things are sold therefore they are much more damaged by slippage than we as consumers are.

That just the point JJB. There's 'slippage', and there's slippage! I don't see this being described as such. 6 months or so is slippage, missed slot or boat etc. Slippage can be excused. Up to 18 months is disastrous in my mind, and I would suggest anything longer is a complete runaway and verging on deliberate irresponsibility. This isn't rocket science and all the firms know exactly how long each stage takes to make a model. In this instance we are talking seven years without a single piece of metal cut. We all know the whole process takes 'give or take' two years from start to finish (plus 6 month slippage if you are being generous)! Are we suggesting these risky investments are being made without any project managing or timeline planning?

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That just the point JJB. There's 'slippage', and there's slippage! I don't see this being described as such. 6 months or so is slippage, missed slot or boat etc. Slippage can be excused. Up to 18 months is disastrous in my mind, and I would suggest anything longer is a complete runaway and verging on deliberate irresponsibility. This isn't rocket science and all the firms know exactly how long each stage takes to make a model. In this instance we are talking seven years without a single piece of metal cut. We all know the whole process takes 'give or take' two years from start to finish (plus 6 month slippage if you are being generous)! Are we suggesting these risky investments are being made without any project managing or timeline planning?

I've tried to sit back here and not enter the fray but 2 main things to remember here I think.....

 

1) the D600 project didn't benefit from all the works drawings ( rather like the class 22) or a real one to scan ( unfortunately Mr Woodham cut his 2 up) so, given his excellent work on the 22 model in a larger scale, was given to a master model maker to produce a 'master' that could then be sent to China for copying and reducing in size to the OO one. This takes time ( master model makers do not necessarily work at it 24/7) and as such was ready when it was ready. This went to China and a cad/cam ( interim) was produced and shown here.

Development work continues on various aspects of the model and variants.

 

2) it's toy trains guys, not a life support machine! As such don't take it too seriously. It's not a disaster for anyone if it doesn't show up expeediently, except perhaps the person who has ploughed his own cash into the project.

Yes it might be annoying, that you want it now, not tomorrow and it's not ready but really? Seriously????

 

So what if something's in the model railway world has been announced and its late? Is it the end of the world as you would have us all believe? If so, I think you need to take up another hobby, I really do!

 

I'll leave you with this..........the lyrics might be apt i think  :locomotive:

 

 

Cheers

Dave

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Oh come on; lighten up.

 

If slippage occurs there's normally a reason behind it that isn't laziness or intentional frustration. Aside from production factors which have been discussed ad nauseum it's important to consider the R&D and design phases of a project. I am not talking about Kernow necessarily but all manufacturers; if a project needs an extended period at this point in the project it's quite likely another project where more information and less R&D time may queue jump it to production; especially if there is a commissioning client who's got a pot of money available and needs the product by a specific date. In those cases an internal product may have a breather.

 

I get the feeling some people just like to be disappointed and frustrated and look for an opportunity to be so.

 

Even if we'd had everything from everyone that has been announced where would we be? Just a point further down the road to the point where there's nothing (commercially) viable left to make.

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I really wish they (Andy and the mods) hadn't taken away the disagree button at times!

 

Honest the amount of moaning for moaning sake on here at the moment, it beggars belief.

 

For gods sake it is a blasted model train. People across the world have had their love ones kidnapped, butchered or killed, their homes destroyed by horrid people and here are some moaning about the delays in a bloody toy train!

 

Some people don't know when their next meal is coming from, I bet their thinking, "Christ I'm so hungry, but wait, the poor sods waiting for the Kernow D6xx Warship are in a much worse state than me! They will have to get an alternative loco to haul their 4mm passenger trains. Why are they not throwing themselves off bridges?"

 

Does it bloody matter how long it takes? In the big scheme of things a model is quite low down on my priority list.

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

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Nice response Dave but it will fall on deaf ears.

 

Occasionally I am prompted to look at the balance of an individual's posts between praise, information giving, achievements shown off, criticism and argument. Some posters are overwhelmingly in the criticism and argument camp. They are also blind to counter- arguments, or choose to argue on because it is part of the psychological make up, or for some other reason. From 50 years of dealing with this type professionally I have also observed that they are typically the sort of person that nobody listens to when they speak so they have to be insistent in print.

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I don't see how anyone can criticise the frequency or extent of Kernow's updates on their commissioned models progress. These appear when there is progress to report. I posted less than a month ago details of the updates given by Chris Trerise in the January BRM. Like others I receive the Kernow weekly newsletter and this gives updates on progress, when there is progress to report. I fail to see the logic of having regular period updates which say,'no further progress' or similar. It should be quite obvious that this model has been significantly delayed by two main factors beyond Kernow's control, the first being that the original commissioned company did not progress the CAD drawings and the development had to be moved elsewhere, the second was that without access to a preserved prototype, and probably a lack of full drawings (similar to other North British designed diesels) a decision was made to use a 1/32 scale model, being built by a professional model maker, as the master for scanning into 'oo' gauge. This meant having to wait until that model maker finished his work. Updates on progress made with the master model were posted on Kernows website and in the weekly newsletter, culminating in the finished model being sent to Hong Kong for scanning and CAD design work earlier this year. 

With these delays, the model also slipped back in order of potential production, with other commissioned models having CAD work completed. I don't know Kernow's financial position, but can summise that as a model shop investing in production of a range of models, they need to get returns on that investment before going on to the significant expense of a new set of tools, which cost tens of thousands of pounds. Currently Kernow have invested in tooling for the O2 loco and the Gate Stock coaches, with no income yet from those models. My logic indicates to me that they need income from that investment before they can invest in tooling for the next models, bearing in mind they have also contracted Bachmann to produce further versions of the Thumper diesels, which again have not yet received any income on that second batch. 

I have a D600 on order, I also have a 10203 diesel on order, which Chris has said is still needing further prototype drawings. It is not life or death, I would like those models, but I realise the situation and apply logic. I also have the benefit of the updates that Kernow provide, and know realistically that it is unlikely that another manufacturer would try and produce these models due to their limited range and liveries

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I've tried to sit back here and not enter the fray but 2 main things to remember here I think.....

1) the D600 project didn't benefit from all the works drawings...

Dave

  

 

And somehow this wasn't known or factored in at the start/announcement?

 

I like REM, but it here's one for you:

 

Oh come on; lighten up.

 

If slippage occurs there's normally a reason behind it that isn't laziness or intentional frustration. Aside from production factors which have been discussed ad nauseum it's important to consider the R&D and design phases of a project. I get the feeling some people just like to be disappointed and frustrated and look for an opportunity to be so.

Even if we'd had everything from everyone that has been announced where would we be? Just a point further down the road to the point where there's nothing (commercially) viable left to make.

 

I said slippage is understandable but not in years. I cannot dispute what you say about delays and the reasons BUT the current mess is wholly unnecessary and is a bad vibe. The vapourware and jam tomorrow phrases are a direct result of making announcements at the point of initial idea and no work has been done. Announcements have become a standing joke. I'd rather this was accepted and we discuss the resultant planning blight issue.

 

Nice response Dave but it will fall on deaf ears.Occasionally I am prompted to look at the balance of an individual's posts between praise, information giving, achievements shown off, criticism and argument. Some posters are overwhelmingly in the criticism and argument camp. They are also blind to counter- arguments, or choose to argue on because it is part of the psychological make up, or for some other reason. From 50 years of dealing with this type professionally I have also observed that they are typically the sort of person that nobody listens to when they speak so they have to be insistent in print.

I am critical, and I can see I am in the minority. However I genuinely think that statements glibly trotted out on here do need to be challenged to make sure they are honest, reasonable and robust. I note that some have wrongly interpreted what I am trying to say deliberately or otherwise. I'm sorry I could not make my point more clearly, must be my heritage. I don't need to have a high post count or show my work to have an opinion. I'd have to disagree with DJMs post as I explained above. Brinklays reply is the usual ridiculous retort about the real world. But we've been here before. Can we debate model railways?

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When Oxford announced their Adams Radial, it prompted me to start planning the 4mm Colonel Stephens layout I've wanted to build for 40 years. It's not the ideal loco, but it's what got me started on a plan. Then I got seduced by the forthcoming Dapol K&ESR Terrier, that looks as though it's only a few months off, although some may still consider it vaporware, and started planning a suitable 7mm layout for it. In fact, I've actually started collecting track and rolling stock for it, and have taken a few steps towards building it. So I'm currently building a layout totally inspired by a loco that isn't available yet.

 

What happens if the Terrier doesn't arrive? Will it be a major disaster that ruins my life? Well no actually, as I'm aware that it might be delayed further, might never appear, or my personal situation may change so I can't buy it anyway. But it's encouraged me to do something I've wanted for a very long time, and without it the layout will just take longer, as I will need to do more scratchbuilding and build more kits. So I win whether it appears or not!

 

I'm also going to pre-order a Kernow Railmotor, that seems so far off that no one is even discussing it. I've decided I want one in the original livery, and that's encouraged me to set an appropriate date for the new EM layout I'm starting, to run my old stock that's been in a box for many years. So I'm building it partly in anticipation of getting a Railmotor. Will it ever appear? Will I still be alive then? Will I be able to afford it? Will it be practical to convert it to EM? Who knows, and my life doesn't depend on it. But again, it's helped to inspire me to get on with something I've wanted to do for a long time, but what I'm doing is being planned in a way that doesn't depend on it ever appearing. Maybe by the time it does, I won't even have a use for it!!!

 

Incidentally, when is the Railmotor likely to appear? Presumably Kernow and DJM need to have got their money back on the other projects before it happens.

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Nice response Dave but it will fall on deaf ears.

 

Occasionally I am prompted to look at the balance of an individual's posts between praise, information giving, achievements shown off, criticism and argument. Some posters are overwhelmingly in the criticism and argument camp. They are also blind to counter- arguments, or choose to argue on because it is part of the psychological make up, or for some other reason. From 50 years of dealing with this type professionally I have also observed that they are typically the sort of person that nobody listens to when they speak so they have to be insistent in print.

 

I was wondering about contributing, again, to this thread but most of what I would say has been said but here perhaps, from Mike Harvey, is what it all comes down to.  You are either prepared to be patient, to look at the news on progress when you receive it, and wait in anticipation for delivery (in my case for two of these locos) or you are not.  If you are you will say little and cheerfully wait - understanding that these things take time, even when the selected manufacturer is actually getting on with it, and that lack of drawings and other information can be a big obstacle to progress.  And the world carries on quite normally with no worries or cares apart from those so typical of everyday life.

 

Or you can worry, you can bluster, you can pound the keyboard in disgust at the total lack of information (even when there has been information) and it's all down to everybody else, rapacious money-grabbing manufacturers, and whatever else you can think of.  And at the end of all that bluster what exactly have you achieved, by how much have you brought forward the delivery date, what have you contributed in terms of research time or even - dare I say it - in other ways to the cashflow of the businesses developing the model you are so eagerly awaiting?  I don't know the answer to that but one thing is for certain, the D6XX will not be here any sooner for all the energy spent pounding keyboards but in the meanwhile people who have far better things to spend their time on - such as the minor incidental of running their businesses - have to waste it making statements, on threads like this, of what to many of us is the obvious.

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I like REM, but it here's one for you:

 

"Tired of waiting"? So move on, then...

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You missed the key point in Igors argument

he said

 If something like the D600 was absolutely fundamental to a major new project,

 

 

Reading it properly makes all the difference to understanding his point.

But how often is that the case? How many layout projects are totally dependent, and therefore on hold, awaiting a single RTR release? The O2 for the I.O.W., the Beattie Well Tank for Wadebridge are two which spring to mind. The latter, long since available, has not generated many, if any, new layouts based on Wadebridge as far as I can see,

 

The fact is that most of the bleating comes from those who will, when the model eventually arrives, simply run it their existing layout.

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It's a shame how polarised some of these discussions have become, I know this is a Kernow commission, but it does seem to have become a pro or anti-DJM debate. I'm pleased to see some more balanced postings emerge this morning. Sure the D600 have taken time, but we know the reasons why - I'm happy to wait, I need time to save to buy all five! I want the model to be a success, regardless who Kernow commission to deliver.

 

It's been mentioned on another forum but discouragement of constructive criticism of EP samples may happen because of the polarisation that has occurred. Look how Dave responded to constructive (emphasis here) criticism of the J94, a much better second EP emerged this week. I'm no expert on these little saddle tanks, but mighty fine models they look.

 

Look at the different atmosphere when the Dapol Western was developed under Dave's stewardship - huge input from us, superb model at the end, sure still with a few technical faults in the first batch but now sorted. I won't say how many of them I have, but they are still stunning, I wouldn't have bought so many if I'd thought otherwise. There were times on that thread when some had got the wrong end of the stick where EPs were debated "why can't you wait till you see the final model" was raised once by someone who clearly hadn't got the big picture.

 

I think we are doing Dave's company a disservice if folk with valuable information to help development are discouraged from posting in this or any other thread with DJM involvement. This is especially important as we are moving into a critical phase with CAD-CAMs and EPs of the D600s in the not too distant future and constructive criticism should be free flowing. I'm sure Dave or Kernow would not want any restrictive debate on the models resulting. I want the D600s to be equally as stunning as the Dapol Western.

 

Neil

Edited by Downendian
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It's a shame how polarised some of these discussions have become, I know this is a Kernow commission, but it does seem to have become a pro or anti-DJM debate. I'm pleased to see some more balanced postings emerge this morning. Sure the D600 have taken time, but we know the reasons why - I'm happy to wait, I need time to save to buy all five! I want the model to be a success, regardless who Kernow commission to deliver.

It's been mentioned on another forum but discouragement of constructive criticism of EP samples may happen because of the polarisation that has occurred. Look how Dave responded to constructive (emphasis here) criticism of the J94, a much better second EP emerged this week. I'm no expert on these little saddle tanks, but mighty fine models they look.

Look at the different atmosphere when the Dapol Western was developed under Dave's stewardship - huge input from us, superb model at the end, sure still with a few technical faults in the first batch but now sorted. I won't say how many of them I have, but they are still stunning, I wouldn't have bought so many if I'd thought otherwise. There were times on that thread when some had got the wrong end of the stick where EPs were debated "why can't you wait till you see the final model" was raised once by someone who clearly hadn't got the big picture.

I think we are doing Dave's company a disservice if folk with valuable information to help development are discouraged from posting in this or any other thread with DJM involvement. This is especially important as we are moving into a critical phase with CAD-CAMs and EPs of the D600s in the not too distant future and constructive criticism should be free flowing. I'm sure Dave or Kernow would not want any restrictive debate on the models resulting. I want the D600s to be equally as stunning as the Dapol Western.

Neil

Hi Neil,

 

I Agree with your post, but the situation mentioned above creates lots of problems both front of stage and behind the scenes.

For instance I know of 1 person that has written to 4 companies telling them that they've made a horlicks of something, but finished his mail with "I could tell you but I doubt you could afford me".

I also know that this persons letters were filed under Z as they were in no way constructive as they bought no fresh specific information.

 

Then you get those on forums that accuse you of getting free info and not having to work so hard to get things right as others are doing it for free for you.

Those ill informed ( inset relevant adjective here) have no idea how those persons are thanked behind the scenes but assume that all manufacturers just say 'thank you'.

 

So really your damned if you do and damned if you don't in this respect. Lol

Cheers

Dave

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It's been mentioned on another forum but discouragement of constructive criticism of EP samples may happen because of the polarisation that has occurred. Look how Dave responded to constructive (emphasis here) criticism of the J94, a much better second EP emerged this week. I'm no expert on these little saddle tanks, but mighty fine models they look.

 

 

I broadly agree with the whole of your post Neil but I'm sure people who care will either continue to offer useful input here or in direct or private communications. I think there is an important difference between just criticising a product, person or business (which there has been too much of for numerous manufacturers of late) and those who offer information (with the caveat of how something is said, not just what is said).

 

I know an awful lot of useful communications go on between people who happen to be members here and several manufacturers; in fact it would probably be unhelpful if that assistance were in public whilst the air gets polluted with interruptions (particularly those that are questioning things for the sake of it) by those who are not in a position, or in a mind, to offer practical support.

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As a person with limited understanding of how a model is actually developed, some of the comments explaining the process and the challenges of getting something from the "it's a good idea" to practical commercial reality is fascinating.

 

What's equally fascinating is the thrall that this small class, only in service for about nine years holds for so many people. Seems rather similar to the P2 class. I doubt many here ever even saw the P2 in steam. I suspect for a model to sell, and for ketone/djm to make a return, it will need to appeal to collectors, those who buy models because they like them as well as the narrower group that model 1960-65 Western region

 

Based on previous comments, let's assume the fixed cost of getting a model to market is £100k. If a model retails for £150 of which half is direct cost of production, approx 1300 models need to be sold to pay for the tooling before any profit is made. Now my numbers are almost certainly wrong (I'm not in the industry) but it's simple enough to build up a spreadsheet to show how the numbers vary. However, given the retail price assumption they're probably not a million miles away. Strikes me as a pretty big risk to assume that you're going I sell 2000+ of a class that operated for just nine years. I suspect, though, that part of the business case for kernow is a)brand awareness b) that most people will likely order something else at the same time as their D6xx...

 

 

Let's not also forge that if you're investing money, you're foregoing alternative return (the time cost of money). It doesn't grow on trees! If people are serious and want to accelerate time to market, crowd funding could help. However strikes me issue here is not finance but the work / resource/ skilled labour required to get to the production stage

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