Kernow Models D6xx Update

[jjb1970]

I can't say this is a surprise and clearly no business can survive by bringing products to market which they cannot make a profit on. The new price is about where I'd expect it to be really.

That said, if the new price is considered too high by some who pre-ordered at the old price then I'd expect Kernow to cancel with no issues and people shouldn't feel guilty if they do decide it's too much. A purchase is a transaction and hard headedness is a two way thing.

I do wonder about pre-orders in todays market given the lead times of many releases. I really don't expect shops to make a loss but equally if the market moves more towards pre-ordering then it isn't unreasonable to expect to know the price when ordering. That's a conundrum I'm glad I don't have to try and solve.

[Clearwater]

I'd suspect that for Kernow to cancel they'd have to feel the financial risk was greater than the reputations risk of cancelling. If they now felt it unviable economically and cancelled, who'd believe and pre order their next commission?

 

They probably have a shrewder idea of overall market than most of us given the total number of units heunsell each year. They'll have direct experience of both new model commissions, e.g. The o2, and their own livery commissions to have a feel for how many pre orders fall away when the time comes. On demand, there was a thread pretty recently chuntering on about the cost of the reliveried Bachmann warship. The price for that is a fiver different to this model. To make an oft repeated, though pertinent point, if you want an oo D6xx in rtr this is your only chance (I don't think even a kit is currently available save as second hand). Arguably in these circumstances you can push the price a bit further..

 

We don't know how many of each they are planning to make of each variant or the time frame they are looking to sell over. Sure they'd prefer to have them fly out of the door and turn their capital but they are likely to be prepared to be more patient and look at an investment case where they sell them over say a 3-5 year timeframe. If his internal rate of return is strong on that case, then given they understand the market, I'm sure he'll be comfortable. . I don't think that will happen. Like other similar commissions, I reckon these will sell welll and quickly

 

David

[jjb1970]

Indeed, I'm not suggesting Kernow cancel the project, that'd be tragic. I do think though that if they have to increase the price then they should offer a no quibble cancellation to customers who ordered at the old price. Personally I think the new price is perfectly reasonable though.

[St Enodoc]

Indeed. And just as with delivery of a new item it will take them some time to contact everyone so perhaps best to await contact rather than call them to ask. The latter, while well meant, occupies staff time which might be used to email ten other customers.

 

All five have been expected here. As the layout for which they were ordered will be no more by the time they arrive I shall make a decision based upon their email in due course.

Agreed. I will await the email from Camborne - which will also allow me to update not only my credit card details but also my address.

 

For a Cornish layout set in the 1950s there is really no option. I decided years ago not to build a Q Kit, despite knowing the owner of the company very well, and the Silver Fox product went off the market as soon as the Kernow one was announced. One (D601) will be enough though...

[The Stationmaster]

I'd suspect that for Kernow to cancel they'd have to feel the financial risk was greater than the reputations risk of cancelling. If they now felt it unviable economically and cancelled, who'd believe and pre order their next commission?

 

They probably have a shrewder idea of overall market than most of us given the total number of units heunsell each year. They'll have direct experience of both new model commissions, e.g. The o2, and their own livery commissions to have a feel for how many pre orders fall away when the time comes. On demand, there was a thread pretty recently chuntering on about the cost of the reliveried Bachmann warship. The price for that is a fiver different to this model. To make an oft repeated, though pertinent point, if you want an oo D6xx in rtr this is your only chance (I don't think even a kit is currently available save as second hand). Arguably in these circumstances you can push the price a bit further..

 

We don't know how many of each they are planning to make of each variant or the time frame they are looking to sell over. Sure they'd prefer to have them fly out of the door and turn their capital but they are likely to be prepared to be more patient and look at an investment case where they sell them over say a 3-5 year timeframe. If his internal rate of return is strong on that case, then given they understand the market, I'm sure he'll be comfortable. . I don't think that will happen. Like other similar commissions, I reckon these will sell welll and quickly

 

David

 

From what I know of Kernow their financial calculations on their various 'specials' and commissions are done pretty carefully (carefully enough to keep the bank manager happy) and as part of their overall business plan - would that some others in the trade were as professional about it.  And I know that they are well aware of the dropout rate on pre-orders - so presumably that is also taken into account in some way?

 

It was of course inevitable that the price of the D6XX would increase - the price of all Chinese made models is increasing so this was hardly likely to be an exception and the £10 deposit on recent orders idea is a clever one because let's not forget that unlike one other concern Kernow doesn't demand payment in full, or even a hefty deposit, upfront - they are still carrying the risk.  Overall I remain of the view that these models are likely to sell out pretty quickly although some versions will, as ever, be more popular than others but that is probably the case with most multi-liveryt offerings nowadays and is something which again is likely to be taken into account on pricing.

 

So no qualms on my part.  With luck and providing tooling and the EP process goes well these might be with us in time for Christmas 2017 as various recent models have progressed fairly quickly once the CAD stage has been finalised so a turnround in 12 months is not totally unachievable in my view (and hopes!) provided everything goes well at each stage of the process.

[Clive Mortimore]

I spoke with the Kernow team yesterday regarding these locos. I was told "Ready for the tool to be cut."

 

I can still gloat. :no:

[Gwiwer]

I spoke with the Kernow team yesterday regarding these locos. I was told "Ready for the tool to be cut."

 

I can still gloat. :no:

 

The only slight delay on the immediate horizon being Chinese New Year which effectively shuts down the entire industry for a few weeks.  But I suspect we are looking at 2017 delivery now after all the preparatory work, unless tooling or livery samples require major corrections or a production slot simply isn't available.  The latter might have already been booked for all we know.

[The Stationmaster]

The only slight delay on the immediate horizon being Chinese New Year which effectively shuts down the entire industry for a few weeks.  But I suspect we are looking at 2017 delivery now after all the preparatory work, unless tooling or livery samples require major corrections or a production slot simply isn't available.  The latter might have already been booked for all we know.

 

I shall just sit back and wait and see.  

 

Plenty of other goodies arriving this year to cause the moths to lose their home in my wallet so a slip in 2018 wouldn't be entirely unwelcome.  However knowing the pace of work on a couple of other current Kernow projects a late 2017 delivery would not come as a surprise to me, assuming there are no problems with EPs and livery samples.

[bigherb]

The only slight delay on the immediate horizon being Chinese New Year which effectively shuts down the entire industry for a few weeks.  But I suspect we are looking at 2017 delivery now after all the preparatory work, unless tooling or livery samples require major corrections or a production slot simply isn't available.  The latter might have already been booked for all we know.

Or 2019. We are still waiting for the gate stock two years after it was approved for tooling.

[rembrow]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a hold now, before the model went to tooling, as Kernow must have incurred a sizeable expenditure in tooling costs recently, for models that are not yet in production, for which they have not yet obtained any financial return on. These being the 1361 Class saddle tank, the LSWR Gate stock, the PBA china clay bogie hoppers, which are their owned tooling and whatever is their cost for the exclusive Bachmann 4TC tooling. It wouldn't surprise me if they waited until the 1361 went on sale, as it is so close now, before commiting to the tooling for this model. This is only a personal observation as I know nothing about Kernows finances, but am aware of the substantial cost of model tooling, from previous discussions. Again, no complaint from me, but a pragmatic personal asessment.

Edited January 16, 2017 by rembrow

[Graham_Muz]

Or 2019. We are still waiting for the gate stock two years after it was approved for tooling.

 

And we have seen two lots of Engineering Prototypes, and subsequent modifications made, which is the purpose of the EPs, from that Gate Stock tooling since and Kernow are now awaiting livery samples.

[bubbles2]

So I have received the personal email from Kernow regarding the price rise to £169.99 for the D6XX. It also informs me that by paying in full now I can save £10 and if I retain my order a further 1500 loyalty points will be awarded worth £15 on further purchases.

With 3 on order, although the email says 2 ordered (this is an anomaly with the Kernow web site that if items are ordered over the phone they do not show on your order history when logged in) the question now is what to do?

The deadline for responses to this offer is 6th March 2017.

Edited February 23, 2017 by bubbles2

[rembrow]

I have had the same Email.

I am away for the next 10 days so not much time to decide.!

 

 

 

Keith.

 

Maybe worth giving them a ring to let them know. I spoke to them 3 weeks ago, as I hadn't received an e-mail and was advised of the offer. I was advised that end of Feb was the deadline for decisions. I spoke to them yesterday about my decision and was advised that they still had a number of pre order customers to contact so the deadlines may be flexible. I found them very helpful over the phone.

 

Interestingly, before I phoned, I found that the Bullied diesel material on the Kernow site had also been updated with a new price of £169.99, with a prior date that pre order customers who have ordered by will be contacted about a mitigating offer. Now the other info about that models development still shows it in research awaiting further material. The sales assistant I spoke to said he knew nothing about that price change on that model.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Andy Y
Quote edited

[Keith George]

 

 

I have now confirmed my order but I said that I will only pay when it is ready to be dispatched.

 

Keith.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Andy Y
Quote removed - inflammatory comments

[Ian Hargrave]

The new price tag is £159.99 for pre orders with 1500 loyalty points (£15) discount for further purchases.I received the offer but did not detect the perceived agenda of bullying,possibly because like a good citizen I received my groupie immunisation some time ago.

 

Yes,I paid the full amount.That is my decision and one that I am content to have made.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Ian Hargrave

['CHARD]

'Groupie Immunisation,' love it!  

 

I've not ordered one, but I might see if I can now, simply out of perversity.

[Roy Langridge]

The new price tag is £159.99 for pre orders with 1500 loyalty points (£15) discount for further purchases.I received the offer but did not detect the perceived agenda of bullying,possibly because like a good citizen I received my groupie immunisation some time ago.

 

Yes,I paid the full amount.That is my decision and one that I am content to have made.

 

Done the same, just used some of my credit on account that I had been saving up for the 4TC. Better start again now

 

Roy

[delticfan]

Sorry chaps sort of lost interest after 7 years and don't think I can justify paying full money for something that might never turn up.

[Roy Langridge]

Sorry chaps sort of lost interest after 7 years and don't think I can justify paying full money for something that might never turn up.

 

Can I ask why you think it won't turn up? Kernow have a proven track record of delivering what they say they will. Ok often it takes time, but they normally get there.

 

Roy

[rembrow]

Sorry chaps sort of lost interest after 7 years and don't think I can justify paying full money for something that might never turn up.

 

I have continued with my pre order and paid the up front price as the model has gone to tooling, so for me there is an end in sight, compared to the many years in research. I told Kernow however, that I would not be making the same decision on the Bullied diesel, which seems to be many years away from fruition.

[delticfan]

To be honest I'm getting fed up with the whole oo gauge habit of announcing models years ahead of them becoming available. It's not just kernow, im sure their intentions are good but Bachmann are quite bad at it too, seeing models in catalogues year after year after year is for me a little pointless. Not for me I'm afraid.

[Roy Langridge]

To be honest I'm getting fed up with the whole oo gauge habit of announcing models years ahead of them becoming available. It's not just kernow, im sure their intentions are good but Bachmann are quite bad at it too, seeing models in catalogues year after year after year is for me a little pointless. Not for me I'm afraid.

 

Being fed up is one thing, claiming that it might never turn up is quite another - and if I am honest, quite unfair on Kernow. I am sure we would all like models to appear shortly after announcement, but that is not the world that we live in.

 

Roy

[delticfan]

Probably the reason why I'm moving into o gauge, rtr seems to turn up more or less on time and if it doesn't exist I can do the kits instead. Each to their own I suppose.

[Gwiwer]

Sorry chaps sort of lost interest after 7 years and don't think I can justify paying full money for something that might never turn up.

 

 

Any one of us is entitled to lose interest.  Suggesting that something might "never turn up" when the commissioning retailer has made it widely known that this has reached the tooling stage, they have taken payments and they have, over the long gestation period, always kept us informed when there is news is, I feel, a kick in their groin at best and certainly uncalled for.

 

We who have had orders for, in most cases, some substantial period of time, have not until now been asked to pay a bean towards these locos.  Kernow MRC would have had to commit a quite significant investment sum, probably as a business loan, and may have a bank asking them when the repayments might be made.  It is not their fault that the first-commissioned manufacturer  chose to do nothing for several years but it may have added to their costs.  Since re-commissioning progress has been seen to be made if not always rapid.  The manufacturer and their associated factory have other projects on their books for which people are also becoming impatient.  A large-scale model of an extinct class has had to be made working only from drawings and old photographs which would not have been easy.

 

The details of the offer are now given above though I chose to not discuss the detail in my earlier post.  After the £10 discount for up-front payment and the £15 per loco value loyalty bonus the actual net cost has risen by a mere £5. that is over a seven-year period.  I consider that to be very good value indeed all things considered.  As Kernow MRC make clear in their email the option to pay up-front assists them in funding the tooling and manufacture by not having to service another loan.  Effectively it offers the models as crowd-funded items.

 

Each of us is free to make our own decisions. Do we still want one or all of those we ordered?  Are we willing and able to pay the lower rate now or wait to pay the full price upon delivery?  We are equally at liberty to form our own opinion of the retailer, the manufacturer and every other party with an input into the project.  No-one can please everyone all of the time.  But for my money Kernow MRC has gone above and beyond to please most people most of the time and no doubt they are as relieved as any of us to see money finally flowing through on the D600 project as this will ensure the earliest possible delivery time for these long-awaited locos.

[delticfan]

Perhaps if I was given some idea of timing when the item was expected I may have thought differently, another 6 months or a year may assist matters.