Kernow Models D6xx Update

[steveb860]

Strange then that I emailed them on the Monday and it was in their newsletter on the Friday.,

 

Keith

 

Did you email Bachmann about doing a Blue Pullman too!

[Oldddudders]

Kernow Models have always had a good reputation with many forum members and make good efforts to keep customers and our readers up to date with developments as soon as possible. So, your email and the result appear to be co-incidental and making loud noises make it disheartening for a commissioning body to hear something needlessly derogatory aired in public.

There seems to be an assumption by a minority that they have some sort of "right" to a model simply because it has been announced. This is not the only example on RMweb of righteous indignation by a modeller frustrated by supply chain issues. I echo Andy Y's observation that Kernow are very good at providing whatever info they can - but they are themselves "only" the customer of a complicated process involving a UK supplier and his Chinese manufacturer. The remarkable list of models that Kernow have commissioned, and the delight with which the final products have been received by happy punters, indicates an ability to see an opportunity married to a dedication to quality that we should all admire. Kernow seems to me to stand above all other smaller UK retailers in consistently identifying and procuring models few of us thought we would ever see in RTR. For goodness's sake let's not pour cold water on their efforts - they deserve encouragement not whinges!

[Physicsman]

I totally agree Ian. To me, they are the best in the business - if possible, I always buy my locos and railway-related stuff with them. Why? Well, since I first spoke to Chris Trerise in 2002 I've had nothing but total support, information and service well above the call of duty. The team are first-class and the plethora of information they put out puts most other retailers to shame. To be honest, given their track record, any (even implied) criticism of them is scandalous!

 

Be grateful that they can be bothered to make things available that nobody else seems bothered about!

 

Jeff

Edited October 12, 2012 by Physicsman

['CHARD]

How sad is it possible for a Sad-Eyes to actually be? I bet this claims the accolade.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/213842543/in/pool-1307883@N23/lightbox/

[Michael Delamar]

in case Robert hasnt seen this thread ill post this in here now..

 

D602_Plymouth_Apr-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

Edited November 12, 2012 by michael delamar

[43179]

Lovely shot Mike - When did Inter City House (tall building in the background) get its name I wonder ?

It can only be a few years old in that photo but it looks grim already

 

 

tfn

 

Jon

Edited November 9, 2012 by 43179

[Southernman46]

in case Robert hasnt seen this thread ill post this in here now..

 

D602_Plymouth_Apr-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Is that on a Milk train ??

[Karhedron]

Is that on a Milk train ??

Superb shot. I have been looking for a shot of a D600 on a milk train for ages. I was sure they would have worked on the milk trains just like the D800s but evidence has been slow in coming.

 

Thanks Michael for posting!

 

It can only be a few years old in that photo but it looks grim already

More than a few. D602 was fitted with boxes in 1964 so it has definitely done some mileage.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Karhedron

[Kris]

Lovely shot Mike - When did Inter City House (tall building in the background) get its name I wonder ?

It can only be a few years old in that photo but it looks grim already

 

 

tfn

 

Jon

 

Nothing's changed there then, still grim.

[Michael Delamar]

dont forget its not my shot, I just seen it on Roberts Carroll's flickr site, he's the one whos sourced it.

[Gwiwer]

It's had to tell that livery is actually rail blue. A mix of the light, grime and photo-degradation renders it somewhere between that and green. And are those milk tanks? The top cap on the lead wagon looks a long way back to be at the mid-point of a 6-wheeler but the angle and lighting make it hard to be sure.

 

Either way a great reference sot and roll on next year when we shall hopefully have these models on our layout at some point.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Gwiwer

[Southernman46]

And are those milk tanks? The top cap on the lead wagon looks a long way back to be at the mid-point of a 6-wheeler but the angle and lighting make it hard to be sure.

 

trying not to go OT

 

On reflection it does - china clay slurry tanks ? , other than the STS5311x series I've no idea what was used back then.

[Karhedron]

On reflection it does - china clay slurry tanks ? , other than the STS5311x series I've no idea what was used back then.

I am pretty sure those are milk tankers. The only clay slurry tankers in service back then that I know of were the Bowaters ones and they had a bright blue livery. Also they had a fairly distinctive frame which meant the bodies of the tanks were fairly widely spaced when coupled. The tankers in that shot look fairly close together.

 

A rake of Bowaters tankers can be seen here.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/74009/6299983645/

 

I am not 100% certain but the tankers behind D602 look more like milk tankers to me.

[Oldddudders]

trying not to go OT

 

On reflection it does - china clay slurry tanks ? , other than the STS5311x series I've no idea what was used back then.

The train number must give us a clue - 3A10 anyone? "A" sounds to me like London, at least - do/did slurry tanks run as class 3?

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

3A11 was the 20.25 Plymouth to Kensington milk in 1967 which suggests 3A10 being the feeder into it from further west.

 

In 67 some parcels were class 3 too but general freight appeared to be class 6, 7 etc according to speed. Some Engineers services are shown class 4.

 

Just for info D6xx locos were limited to 370 tonnes to maintain class 3 timings whilst D8xx locos were limited to 420 tonnes class 3.

 

Source - BR Western Region WTT Section B3 March 67 to May 68.

 

Dave

Edited November 10, 2012 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[Gwiwer]

Class 3 always included milk trains and all other perishables. Case probably rested.

[Southernman46]

The train number must give us a clue - 3A10 anyone? "A" sounds to me like London, at least - do/did slurry tanks run as class 3?

 

Ah - trust a good Operator to spot that

Edited November 10, 2012 by Southernman46

[Southernman46]

I am pretty sure those are milk tankers. The only clay slurry tankers in service back then that I know of were the Bowaters ones and they had a bright blue livery. Also they had a fairly distinctive frame which meant the bodies of the tanks were fairly widely spaced when coupled. The tankers in that shot look fairly close together.

 

A rake of Bowaters tankers can be seen here.

 

http://www.flickr.co...009/6299983645/

 

I am not 100% certain but the tankers behind D602 look more like milk tankers to me.

 

Oh the times I chased that train during the long summer evenings @ Gillingham - was just a MO working ISTR, hoping it ran, no Gen to speak of and hoping for enough light when / if it did appear.

[Clive Mortimore]

3A11 was the 20.25 Plymouth to Kensington milk in 1967 which is a very good indicator of 3A10 being the feeder into it from further west.

 

In 67 some parcels were class 3 too but general freight appeared to be class 6, 7 etc according to speed. Some Engineers services are shown class 4.

 

Just for info D6xx locos were limited to 370 tonnes to maintain class 3 timings whilst D8xx locos were limited to 420 tonnes class 3.

 

Source - BR Western Region WTT Section B3 March 67 to May 68.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave

 

3A10 could well be a through milk train. I do not have a 1967 WR working time table. I sure if it was a feeder it would not had a A for a London district bound train but a C or a B where it would have conected with the main working. Does anyone have the Plymouth or London district WTT for 1967 to confirm what train 3 A10 is?

Non passenger carrying coaching stock trains were class 3 trains. This included milk and fish trains as well as parcels. Empty stock trains were also class 3 trains from 1962-69.

 

Further to Dave's information.

A class 4 train was a fully fitted train, maximum speed 55mph. Brake van must have a wheel base of 15 ft or over.

Class 5 express freight with not less than 50% braked vehicles piped to the locomotive. Brake van must have a wheel base of 15 ft or over.

Class 6 express freight with not less than 20% of wagons to automatic brake fitted wagons piped to the locomotive.

Class 7 express freight not fitted with continuous brake.

Class 7* express fright with fitted head proportional to load and braking ability of the locomotive.

Class 8 through freight not fitted with continuous brake.

Class 9 pick up freight.

 

With Class 5, 6, 7, 7* and 8 freight trains any fitted vehicles were to be coupled to the locomotive unless this interferred with any marshalling plans to assist the braking of the locomotive. So from a modellers view point a mixed fitted and unfittted train ideally should have all the fitted wagons behind locomotive and in practice would be hard to tell apart except from the locomotive's headcode.

 

Ballast trains were to have a fitted portion at both ends so the locomotive could work the train in either direction.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Clive Mortimore

[The Stationmaster]

 

3A10 could well be a through milk train. I do not have a 1967 WR working time table. I sure if it was a feeder it would not had a A for a London district bound train but a C or a B where it would have conected with the main working. Does anyone have the Plymouth or London district WTT for 1967 to confirm what train 3 A10 is?

Non passenger carrying coaching stock trains were class 3 trains. This included milk and fish trains as well as parcels. Empty stock trains were also class 3 trains from 1962-69.

 

Further to Dave's information.

A class 4 train was a fully fitted train, maximum speed 55mph. Brake van must have a wheel base of 15 ft or over.

Class 5 express freight with not less than 50% braked vehicles piped to the locomotive. Brake van must have a wheel base of 15 ft or over.

Class 6 express freight with not less than 20% of wagons to automatic brake fitted wagons piped to the locomotive.

Class 7 express freight not fitted with continuous brake.

Class 7* express fright with fitted head proportional to load and braking ability of the locomotive.

Class 8 through freight not fitted with continuous brake.

Class 9 pick up freight.

 

With Class 5, 6, 7, 7* and 8 freight trains any fitted vehicles were to be coupled to the locomotive unless this interferred with any marshalling plans to assist the braking of the locomotive. So from a modellers view point a mixed fitted and unfittted train ideally should have all the fitted wagons behind locomotive and in practice would be hard to tell apart except from the locomotive's headcode.

 

Ballast trains were to have a fitted portion at both ends so the locomotive could work the train in either direction.

Alas some of the above is incorrect ECS trains not running as Class 1 were part of Class 3 from 1960 onwards on the WR (they were previously Class C)

 

Now we need to consider dates so I will take 1967 as that is the date of the pic of D602

 

Class 4 freight were not fully fitted but were required to have the auto brake operative on not less than 90% of the vehicles and there was no generally published requirement for them to have brake vans with a wheelbase over 15ft.

Class 5 trains had no generally published requirement regarding the wheelbase of the brakevan.

Class 7 Express Freights and Class 8 Through Freights were not fitted with the automatc brake (just a difference in the term used? - well not exactly as there was, and is a difference between fitted with a continuous brake (i.e all vehicles have an automatic brake).

Class 9 was a stopping or branch freight or a ballast train requiring to stop in section.

 

There was no requirement in Class 4,5,6,7 trains to have brake fitted wagons marshalled next to the engine, piped wagons were permitted unless shown specially in Regional Train Loading Instructions. Fitted vehicles could be marshalled anywhere in the train provided there were sufficient of them connected via through pipes in order to get the required percentage of automatic braked wagons.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hi Dave

 

3A10 could well be a through milk train. I do not have a 1967 WR working time table. I sure if it was a feeder it would not had a A for a London district bound train but a C or a B where it would have conected with the main working. Does anyone have the Plymouth or London district WTT for 1967 to confirm what train 3 A10 is?

Non passenger carrying coaching stock trains were class 3 trains. This included milk and fish trains as well as parcels. Empty stock trains were also class 3 trains from 1962-69.

 

.

.

 

Clive,

 

I've had time to study the WTT now, 3A10 was the 13.32 St Erth to Kensington milk service in April 67, 20.55 passing Taunton.

 

Best regards

 

Dave

Edited November 10, 2012 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[Oldddudders]

I've had time to study the WTT now, 3A10 was the 13.32 St Erth to Kensington milk service in April 67, 20.55 passing Taunton.

Result!

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive,

 

I've had time to study the WTT now, 3A10 was the 13.32 St Erth to Kensington milk service in April 67, 20.55 passing Taunton.

 

Best regards

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave

 

Thanks for looking it up.

 

A little more on freight trains.

Class 5 Maximum speed of 50 mph

Class 6 Maximum speed of 45 mph

Class 7 Maximum speed of 40 mph

Class 7* Maximum speed of 35 mph

Class 8 Maximum speed of 25 mph

 

Speeds taken from Freight Train Loads Book ER (GNR) 1967. I am a bit confused with the class 7 and class 7*. I was always under the impression that class 7* with their fitted heads were faster than class without a fitted portion. Could there be a misprint in this book or am I wrong?

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Clive,

 

How does the publication define class 7 and class 7*?

 

I have the 1969 Working Manual for Rail Staff and the 1972 BR Rule book beside me. As you say there was a significant revision of freight train classification in 1969.

 

Dave

Edited November 10, 2012 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[Clive Mortimore]

Alas some of the above is incorrect ECS trains not running as Class 1 were part of Class 3 from 1960 onwards on the WR (they were previously Class C)

 

Now we need to consider dates so I will take 1967 as that is the date of the pic of D602

 

Class 4 freight were not fully fitted but were required to have the auto brake operative on not less than 90% of the vehicles and there was no generally published requirement for them to have brake vans with a wheelbase over 15ft.

Class 5 trains had no generally published requirement regarding the wheelbase of the brakevan.

Class 7 Express Freights and Class 8 Through Freights were not fitted with the automatc brake (just a difference in the term used? - well not exactly as there was, and is a difference between fitted with a continuous brake (i.e all vehicles have an automatic brake).

Class 9 was a stopping or branch freight or a ballast train requiring to stop in section.

 

There was no requirement in Class 4,5,6,7 trains to have brake fitted wagons marshalled next to the engine, piped wagons were permitted unless shown specially in Regional Train Loading Instructions. Fitted vehicles could be marshalled anywhere in the train provided there were sufficient of them connected via through pipes in order to get the required percentage of automatic braked wagons.

 

Hi Mike

 

I know you worked on the railway so I will always listen to what you say but I took my information form Freight Train Loads Book, ER (GNR) 1967, a BR document. I was always lead to believe the headcode classification of trains was standard across BR.

 

I know that they changed over the years. I have for 1962 the following.

Class 4, Express freight, pipe fitted throughout with the automatic vacuum brake operative on not less than half of the vehicles piped to the engine.

Class 5, Express freight, not less than one third vacuum braked vehicles piped to the engine.

Class 6, Express freight, not less than four vacuum braked vehicles piped to the engine.

Class 7, Epress freight, not fitted with continuous brake.

Class 8, Through freight, not running under class 4,5, 6 or 7 conditions.

Class 9, Pick up freight.

 

The Freight Train Loads Books are a wealth of information inregards to what vehicles can be conveyed in what trains. It is a pity I have recently lent my LMR books covering the 50s and 60s to a friend and I cannot show some other variations over the years.

 

Post 1969 there were major changes.

 

Clive