Kernow Models D6xx Update

[Baby Deltic]

Were these beauts as unreliable as people say? Ive heard many say the the d6xx and d63xx were more reliable than they have ever been given credit for..

 

The D600's had original German built MAN engines, built to the correct spec with the correct materials, so they were pretty good. The problem arose when one was out of traffic for engine maintenance, because the parts had to be ordered from Germany if they weren't on the shelf. D600 did suffer an engine failure on its inaugural run, and limped home late on one engine. The class 22's had engines built under licence by NBL which could be seriously unreliable. They don't seem to have been as bad as the class 21's, but certainly NBL's failure to 'stick to the script' when building the engines in order to save money cost them dearly.

[Gwiwer]

AIUI the D600s were withdrawn early because they were a very small and very non-standard class rather than from any reliability issue as such.  They were certainly quite active (pun intended ) until very near the end on the Cornish main line with passenger, van and freight workings all rostered.  I recall the 800s and (shock horror) the 1000s failing more often than a 600.   On one such occasion Western Thunderer failed to thunder beyond Ponsandane and was replaced by Ark Royal on an up working.  On another day an 800 (which one is lost in the mists of time) was said to be "spitting sparks" in platform 2 at Penzance and was removed in favour of a 600.

[Karhedron]

but certainly NBL's failure to 'stick to the script' when building the engines in order to save money cost them dearly.

Was it a money saving exercise or the translation from metric to imperial that caused the problems?

 

I have also read that the D600s/6300s were not as unreliable as popularly believed and no worse than many of the other early classes of diesel. As Baby Deltic points out, lack of availability of spare parts was a big problem. Another anecdote I have heard was that over-optimism on the part of the WR led them roster many of the diesel-hydraulics on more intensive diagrams than diesel-electrics on other regions which exacerbated the problems.

 

I think that decision to kill-off the hydraulics as non-standard was fait-accompli and the NBL locos were simply first in the firing line. I suspect their reputations for reliability were tarnished wherever possible to help justify the decision.

[The Stationmaster]

A big problem with the NBL built diesels was poor assembly quality - it seems the work force knew the writing was on the wall and were either disheartened or increasingly disinterested or both and it showed in their work performance.  Someone I knew years ago visited the factory when the D63XX were being built and was shocked - even expressing the view that scrap material was being used and as I've related before the WR Loco Inspectors going to collect new locos were often left at a loose end because work wasn't finished or there were faults being found on the contracted day of delivery.

Edited November 25, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Rugd1022]

A big factor in their perceived reliability was that all five of the D600s were out of action at Swindon for abnormal lengths of time, one of them was trapped in the works awaiting parts for over 300 consectutive days on one occasion which made things look even worse 'on paper' come audit time. All this was going on while the ER and LMR were having serious trouble with Brush Type 2s and 4s which was hushed up as much as possible at the time, so in the event the odds were stacked up against the Hydraulics by 1964 / 65 and it was (mostly) downhill from there. On a good day the D600s were stirling performers in the Far West once the Newton Abbot, Laira, Truro, St.Blazey and Penzance men had got used to them. I've been told first hand on many, many occasions that the Swindon built D800s could p*ss all over any other Type 4 Diesel Electric on home turf (and often beyond the WR boundary), they were built for the Devonian and Cornish banks which by and large they took to with gusto. There were problems and failures aplenty in the early days until their foibles had been attended to, but even after one engine shut down the banks were still taken with confidence on one engine on many occasions.

[Gwiwer]

 

even after one engine shut down the banks were still taken with confidence on one engine on many occasions.

 

 

Which is more than can be said for their modern-day counterparts the HST sets.  One engine only is not permitted over the banks.  End of story and all change please.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Gwiwer

[Baby Deltic]

A big factor in their perceived reliability was that all five of the D600s were out of action at Swindon for abnormal lengths of time, one of them was trapped in the works awaiting parts for over 300 consectutive days on one occasion which made things look even worse 'on paper' come audit time. All this was going on while the ER and LMR were having serious trouble with Brush Type 2s and 4s which was hushed up as much as possible at the time, so in the event the odds were stacked up against the Hydraulics by 1964 / 65 and it was (mostly) downhill from there. On a good day the D600s were stirling performers in the Far West once the Newton Abbot, Laira, Truro, St.Blazey and Penzance men had got used to them. I've been told first hand on many, many occasions that the Swindon built D800s could p*ss all over any other Type 4 Diesel Electric on home turf (and often beyond the WR boundary), they were built for the Devonian and Cornish banks which by and large they took to with gusto. There were problems and failures aplenty in the early days until their foibles had been attended to, but even after one engine shut down the banks were still taken with confidence on one engine on many occasions.

 

Exactly. There were Crompton Parkinson equipped diesel electrics blowing up left right and centre in the early sixties. Certainly things came to a head when Crompton were spending more time trying to repair returned equipment than manufacture new parts for ongoing builds. BR were forced to turn to Brush to supply equipment for their last type 4's giving rise to the class 46 variant. I think one of the things that stacked up against the diesel hydraulics was BR's dislike of quick running engines. Obviously there was a limit to how much horsepower could be input into a torque converter which made the large slow running engines such as the 12LDA 28 and 16 SVT unsuitable. Had it been possible to create a fleet of single engined locomotives of high power with medium running power units, maybe BR would have been more willing to turn a blind eye.

 

The D600's were an unwanted gift from the BTC to the WR, as were the class 22's. They were built in the conventional manner with a heavy solid underframe and light alloy body, so were bestowed with none of the virtues which made diesel hydraulics a viable proposition - namely lightweight monocoq stressed skin integral body/chassis with high power to weight ratio. I think the WR would have preferred to have been left alone to order a fleet of D800's from the get-go without having the D600's foisted on them first.

[Rugd1022]

The irony about the D600's heavy / conventional design to me is that despite it's limitations and being unwanted by WR management,  the result was still a very handsome amchine in it's own way. I know not everyone will agree with this, but the more time passes the better looking they become, despite the antiquated spoked wheels and steam age headcode discs. A lot of folk don't like the grafted on headcode boxes but to me they add even more 'bullishness' to the overall look!

 

If fate had stepped in and D600 and / or D601 had been rescued from Dai Woodhams yard I think it's a fair bet that either one of these fine locos would be a big draw on the right preserved line today (as would poor old 6319 if it hadn't been cut up 'by mistake'...  ). Too big for the Bodmin & Wenford branch I dare say but they wouldn't look out of place throbbing away in manly fashion under the overall roof at Kingswear...

[Baby Deltic]

The irony about the D600's heavy / conventional design to me is that despite it's limitations and being unwanted by WR management,  the result was still a very handsome amchine in it's own way. I know not everyone will agree with this, but the more time passes the better looking they become, despite the antiquated spoked wheels and steam age headcode discs. A lot of folk don't like the grafted on headcode boxes but to me they add even more 'bullishness' to the overall look!

 

If fate had stepped in and D600 and / or D601 had been rescued from Dai Woodhams yard I think it's a fair bet that either one of these fine locos would be a big draw on the right preserved line today (as would poor old 6319 if it hadn't been cut up 'by mistake'...  ). Too big for the Bodmin & Wenford branch I dare say but they wouldn't look out of place throbbing away in manly fashion under the overall roof at Kingswear...

I would have loved to have seen and heard one of those MAN beasties. I personally think the D600's were the most handsome of the designs. I know a lot of wizzo-waller's will disagree, but I think Misha Black came up with a belter with the D600's.    

Edited November 25, 2013 by Baby Deltic

[The Stationmaster]

Before all this talk of one-engine achievements on banks in the west runs away with itself let's look at some facts.  The diesel hydraulics were indeed allowed to proceed on one engine but the loads were very seriously reduced in such circumstances - taking Dainton as an example D6XX were limited to 150 tons trailing (normally 410), D8XX were limited to 175 tons (normally 415) and D10XX were limited to 235 tons (normally 535 tons).  The loads west of Plymouth were obviously a bit greater with the worst section overall being Lostwithiel to Burngullow on the Down and Hayle to Camborne on the Up with a D6XX reduced to 215 tons (in both directions), a D8XX to 240 tons and a D10XX to 330 tons - which probably meant in practice that they could handle most passenger trains west of Plymouth on one engine.

 

The situation with HSTs was slightly different - on a good day and in good condition there was no doubt whatsoever that an HST could make it in either direction between Newton Abbot and Plymouth and indeed many did.  But it only required something to be not quite in their favour - such as the remaining engine not developing full power or some 'greasy' rain and they would be in trouble unless the Driver was very lucky, however the real problem with single engine working was overheating although that could be minimised by very careful handling on a 7 car train.  Hence my then boss (who had been a traction engineer, and at one time an Instructor in the WR's diesel schools) devised the single engine assistance Instruction for HSTs on the South Devon banks (after a particularly serious incident which led to major delays).  

 

Effectively if an HST's load could be reduced then a similar Instruction to that for diesel hydraulics could have been applied but it couldn't, and some HSTs were operating in 8 car formations which would invariably get into trouble on the banks on one engine

[Rugd1022]

Before all this talk of one-engine achievements on banks in the west runs away with itself let's look at some facts.  The diesel hydraulics were indeed allowed to proceed on one engine but the loads were very seriously reduced in such circumstances - taking Dainton as an example D6XX were limited to 150 tons trailing (normally 410), D8XX were limited to 175 tons (normally 415) and D10XX were limited to 235 tons (normally 535 tons).  The loads west of Plymouth were obviously a bit greater with the worst section overall being Lostwithiel to Burngullow on the Down and Hayle to Camborne on the Up with a D6XX reduced to 215 tons (in both directions), a D8XX to 240 tons and a D10XX to 330 tons - which probably meant in practice that they could handle most passenger trains west of Plymouth on one engine.

 

 

Thanks for that Mike - although even allowing for exaggeration from die hard Western men's attachment to their steeds and personal memories of them, to a man everyone I've spoken to on the subject would still back up the fact that the Hydraulics were very capable of taking 'a bit extra' over some of the banks on one engine.  It's as well to add that when Laira kept any twin engined Type 4 Hydraulic on 'local working only' or 'one engine only' jobs they were still trusted with the Cornish legs of the Rivo etc, although of course the loads and line speeds were often reduced west of Plymouth anyway. In fact right up until their last week of service, the D600s were still used on this before being driven onto the dump road at Laira on Saturday 30/12/67. They were kept in good nick right up to the end too, with D600 having one of it's transmissions changed four weeks before it was due for the chop. You'd think they wouldn't have bothered but the work was done and out it went back onto it's normal diagrams.

 

Just checked which loco was out of action for over 300 days at Swindon, it was D603, stopped on 10/11/64 and didn't return to traffic until 14/10/65, some 338 days later!

[Baby Deltic]

Thanks for that Mike - although even allowing for exaggeration from die hard Western men's attachment to their steeds and personal memories of them, to a man everyone I've spoken to on the subject would still back up the fact that the Hydraulics were very capable of taking 'a bit extra' over some of the banks on one engine.  It's as well to add that when Laira kept any twin engined Type 4 Hydraulic on 'local working only' or 'one engine only' jobs they were still trusted with the Cornish legs of the Rivo etc, although of course the loads and line speeds were often reduced west of Plymouth anyway. In fact right up until their last week of service, the D600s were still used on this before being driven onto the dump road at Laira on Saturday 30/12/67. They were kept in good nick right up to the end too, with D600 having one of it's transmissions changed four weeks before it was due for the chop. You'd think they wouldn't have bothered but the work was done and out it went back onto it's normal diagrams.

 

Just checked which loco was out of action for over 300 days at Swindon, it was D603, stopped on 10/11/64 and didn't return to traffic until 14/10/65, some 338 days later!

They should have arranged for the Luftwaffe to drop then spares for D603 on Swindon.

[Fat Controller]

They should have arranged for the Luftwaffe to drop then spares for D603 on Swindon.

Part of the problem was that foreign exchange was very strictly controlled at the time. Decisions about authorising its use came from quite high up in government, for whom returning a loco to service would have been fairly low priority.

[Velopeur]

Didn't the German railbuses have a similar problem with spares? They had different engines fitted to solve the problem, if I remember correctly?

[byron]

When BR were looking round for main line diesels, one of the most successful of the time were the DB V200 class. Introduced in 1953, 5 prototypes were fully tested (in good German practice) before the main fleet were introduced in 1956. The transmission and diesel engines were interchangable with other types. I read about the history of one such diesel motor being swapped between V200, V100 and VT08's.They were most successful machines giving at least 30 years main line service.

Our problem with all the modernisation diesels was trying to do it all on the cheap. In the end it costs more than was ever saved.

Currency exchange was one problem - I recall many a trip to the Vaterland with cash in my socks (it would have taken a brave man to ask me to remove my shoes and socks!!). Perhaps that is where the phrase "money stinks" comes from.

A great pity that government interferance resulted in the downfall of what should have been great loco's.

 

Mike

[Michael Delamar]

It would have been nice if the Barry diesels had been saved, I do think that if they had, they would be on their way to restoration but in 2013 not running yet, like D8233 and D5705 which are still getting restored and were in a better condition than the Barry locos.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that Mike - although even allowing for exaggeration from die hard Western men's attachment to their steeds and personal memories of them, to a man everyone I've spoken to on the subject would still back up the fact that the Hydraulics were very capable of taking 'a bit extra' over some of the banks on one engine.  It's as well to add that when Laira kept any twin engined Type 4 Hydraulic on 'local working only' or 'one engine only' jobs they were still trusted with the Cornish legs of the Rivo etc, although of course the loads and line speeds were often reduced west of Plymouth anyway. In fact right up until their last week of service, the D600s were still used on this before being driven onto the dump road at Laira on Saturday 30/12/67. They were kept in good nick right up to the end too, with D600 having one of it's transmissions changed four weeks before it was due for the chop. You'd think they wouldn't have bothered but the work was done and out it went back onto it's normal diagrams.

 

Just checked which loco was out of action for over 300 days at Swindon, it was D603, stopped on 10/11/64 and didn't return to traffic until 14/10/65, some 338 days later!

 

It's probably worth pointing out that train load calculation is a very exact science depending on a whole raft of inexact variables.  The single engine loads for the diesel hydraulics were published as 'pain of death' (i.e. you only exceed them on pain of death, or worse) but no doubt in extremis they were probably ignored and on a good day with - literally - the wind in the right direction and other weather conditions in their favour you could probably get away with an extra coach or two.

 

Similarly fuel mileages were calculated and diagrammed on a 'standard' figure which also gave some room for good days or bad days and so on and chances were sometimes taken and got away with it - until the Class 60s came along.  For them everything was very exactly calculated  (as before) but using more exact input data thus, for example, the fuel mileages were very accurate to well within single figure percentage variation between the calculated and actual - which explains why one loco ran out of fuel only a few miles from where the calculations had said it would run out of fuel.

[MJI]

A big factor in their perceived reliability was that all five of the D600s were out of action at Swindon for abnormal lengths of time, one of them was trapped in the works awaiting parts for over 300 consectutive days on one occasion which made things look even worse 'on paper' come audit time. All this was going on while the ER and LMR were having serious trouble with Brush Type 2s and 4s which was hushed up as much as possible at the time, so in the event the odds were stacked up against the Hydraulics by 1964 / 65 and it was (mostly) downhill from there. On a good day the D600s were stirling performers in the Far West once the Newton Abbot, Laira, Truro, St.Blazey and Penzance men had got used to them. I've been told first hand on many, many occasions that the Swindon built D800s could p*ss all over any other Type 4 Diesel Electric on home turf (and often beyond the WR boundary), they were built for the Devonian and Cornish banks which by and large they took to with gusto. There were problems and failures aplenty in the early days until their foibles had been attended to, but even after one engine shut down the banks were still taken with confidence on one engine on many occasions.

 

Does this include the 50s as the crews seemed to like these?

 

I have had some good runs behind these and often saw them haul 14 coach sleeper trains over the Devon banks singly.

[MJI]

The irony about the D600's heavy / conventional design to me is that despite it's limitations and being unwanted by WR management,  the result was still a very handsome amchine in it's own way. I know not everyone will agree with this, but the more time passes the better looking they become, despite the antiquated spoked wheels and steam age headcode discs. A lot of folk don't like the grafted on headcode boxes but to me they add even more 'bullishness' to the overall look!

 

If fate had stepped in and D600 and / or D601 had been rescued from Dai Woodhams yard I think it's a fair bet that either one of these fine locos would be a big draw on the right preserved line today (as would poor old 6319 if it hadn't been cut up 'by mistake'...  ). Too big for the Bodmin & Wenford branch I dare say but they wouldn't look out of place throbbing away in manly fashion under the overall roof at Kingswear...

 

I am so glad I was able to see D601 and D6122 before they were scrapped and I would love to have seen both preserved, even if static only.

[MJI]

I would have loved to have seen and heard one of those MAN beasties. I personally think the D600's were the most handsome of the designs. I know a lot of wizzo-waller's will disagree, but I think Misha Black came up with a belter with the D600's.    

 

D800 Warships to me are ugly, the Westerns stylish, but I do like the looks of the D600s

[The Stationmaster]

Does this include the 50s as the crews seemed to like these?

 

I have had some good runs behind these and often saw them haul 14 coach sleeper trains over the Devon banks singly.

When they first arrived on the Western the 50s were atrocious - hence rapidly becoming known as the 50.50s (i.e. you stood a 50% chance of getting home with one).  On their first Summer Saturday we had 16 taken off trains as failures at Westbury and we ended up sending out as change engines in the afternoon the ones we had taken off in the morning because we had used up everything else we had plus whatever we had been able to get from Bath Road.

 

Modifications improved their reliability of course, thankfully, over their years on the Western but in my view of them they never had the character of the earlier WR Type 4s of any sort - rather dull to drive apart from anything else.

[byron]

When they first arrived on the Western the 50s were atrocious - hence rapidly becoming known as the 50.50s (i.e. you stood a 50% chance of getting home with one).  On their first Summer Saturday we had 16 taken off trains as failures at Westbury and we ended up sending out as change engines in the afternoon the ones we had taken off in the morning because we had used up everything else we had plus whatever we had been able to get from Bath Road.

 

Modifications improved their reliability of course, thankfully, over their years on the Western but in my view of them they never had the character of the earlier WR Type 4s of any sort - rather dull to drive apart from anything else.

Consider the 50's Stoke Control's revenge for all the stress caused by the Warships and Westerns that arrived instead of the booked 47!

 

Mike.

[Rugd1022]

When they first arrived on the Western the 50s were atrocious - hence rapidly becoming known as the 50.50s (i.e. you stood a 50% chance of getting home with one).  On their first Summer Saturday we had 16 taken off trains as failures at Westbury and we ended up sending out as change engines in the afternoon the ones we had taken off in the morning because we had used up everything else we had plus whatever we had been able to get from Bath Road.

 

Modifications improved their reliability of course, thankfully, over their years on the Western but in my view of them they never had the character of the earlier WR Type 4s of any sort - rather dull to drive apart from anything else.

 

I know I've mentioned this before more than once, but in those early days a lot of WR drivers would refuse to take a 50 off the shed and would demand a Western instead, sometimes they got away with it if one was available, but the invaders from the north were not liked one bit by drivers and fitters alike back then. When 400 arrived at Bath Road in late '72, it spent an inordinate amount of time indoors until the fitting staff had got their head around all the newfangled electronic gear it was fitted with from new. With the hydraulics, the electrical systems were a nightmare at first but were nothing compared to the 50s in 'as built' form, and the fitters soon worked out how to isolate certain items on the D600s and D800s to help with fault finding.

 

Incidentally, did anyone manage to pick up 'Book Of The Warships' for £15 at Warley...? I noticed a few copies on sale at this knocked down price - a bargain!

[byron]

Being serious for a moment, the main fault with the 50's was that they were conceived as a "maedchen fuer alles". Why oh why was a locomotive built for express passenger duties, and yet had slow speed control for MGR trains? It was (I suppose) the intention that between class 1 work, they could fill in with a coal trip or three. There were the odd use of a 50 on MGR's on the Stoke patch, but not very often. Once you got two in MU for the Scottish expresses, you kept them together. They were not very reliable to put it kindly.

 

Mike

[Baby Deltic]

EE tried to be clever by stuffing the 50's full of solid state electronics which was still in its infancy. Brush gave up with the Hawk project because things got too expensive to keep blowing up, the class 74's were also abysmal in terms of reliability because of solid state control equipment between the genny and traction motors.

 

Had EE built the class 50's as rebodied DP2's without all the trimmings, I reckon they would have been a decent fleet of loco's from the start.