Train spotting in the late 60's

[Black8]

I would like to start by apologizing if this is posted in the wrong area, i think I'm in the right place but i cant be sure. I would also like to apologize for the fact i am about to do some rambling...

 

... Dont worry, i shortened it all down a bit so not to much rambling!

 

 

The above video gives a basic idea of what i wish to model, the late 60's when the last of BR steam worked alongside blue diesels and would love any information on the period for those who were there or are simply knowledgeable, thank you to all those who have and will help with this.

[stewartingram]

Take a look at the pics on my Old B/W photos gallery for a start. Not brilliant quality, but all taken by me during my trainspotting travels in the '60s. A number of people have added comments, such as 'nostalgic', and 'bringing back the atmosphere'. Enjoy!

 

http://www.rmweb.co....-old-bw-photos/

 

Stewart

[Pannier Tank]

Fantastic collection of photos Stewart; particularly interested in the Bletchley shots being my home town. Did you ever get any of Bletchley's 47500 & 47521 Jinties? I used to ride on them but in those days never had a camera!!

[fungus]

You'll find some of my photos from that era (when I was in my teens) at www.3218.co.uk

[edcayton]

Remember that steam finished in 1968 and was gone in most areas before that, The final stand was the North West, with Stanier black 5's, 8F's and Jubilees, and some Standard types. Whereabouts would your Dad have been based, or did he travel a lot to chase the last steam (a lot of us did) ?

 

There was a thread on here recently, started by Jim S-W IIRC, about the era you asked about. Perhaps someone could post a link please?

 

Ed

[Black8]

Thank you for all the replies, didn't expect so much so soon. The pictures were very interesting Stewart, i liked the mixture of different types of traction, i sometimes feel that photos of that era are lacking in diesels. My dad was infact based in the north west. Mostly visiting Stations between Crewe and Preston for 66-68, then some ncb/industrial sites in 69, i think he give it up after that.

[stewartingram]

Keep checking back, I have more to scan!

 

Stewart

[Pannier Tank]

Thank you for all the replies, didn't expect so much so soon.

 

That's the great thing about RMweb, someone, somewhere know's the answer !

[Gwiwer]

Steam finished in '68 right up in that area. Rose Grove was the last active shed IIRC and spotters (or railway enthusiasts as most of the more senior ones generally prefer to be called) were there a-plenty from all over the country.

 

It was a time of great change. Maroon (and, on the Southern, green) livery was dying out but had not entirely given way to blue for diesels and multiple units and parcel vans or blue/grey for passenger-carrying loose-coupled coaching stock. You could still see two-tone green diesels, green shunters, grimy black steam engines, spanking new blue diesels (some of which really were new and others just out of the paint shops) and if you came down to Crewe ("up" in railway terms but the locals often referred to "doon sooth" versus "oop north") you would see overhead electrics in full flight which while not brand new in 1968 were still new enough to attract some interest. Trains could be formed of a mix of maroon and blue-grey stock. DMU sets might be a mixture of plain blue and lined green cars with parcels trains including maroon, blue, green and (for the TPO services) GPO red in random order.

 

Alongside the huge number of spotters and photters (those with professional kit were usually called "cameramen" back then but a good many amateurs took what shots they could many of which are superb) there were notable individual characters. "Trolleyman" is one I recall who had all his kit on what I think was a refreshment trolley and could be seen racing from platform to platform around the stations of the north west pushing this beast in pursuit of steam.

 

I was just a little young to have made unaccompanied trips so far from home but was escorted by grandparents who holidayed every year at Grange-over-Sands for a couple of trips to the Preston area in the last days of steam. Some of the scenes were quite unbelievable; what seemed like a sea of people crowding around a steam engine and with scant thought for their safety could also be found off platform ends and even on adjacent tracks. Cameras, notebook and sound recording equipment seemed to be everywhere.

 

As such there is no shortage of recorded data from the Preston and north-west area generally regarding that last year or so of steam. Videos appear on YouTube and members here have already offered archive links and I'm sure more will appear.

[BG John]

I got interested in railways just after steam ended in the south, but before the end in the north, and was too young to go up north. Nearly all my trainspotting was done at Reading. I got there on a 2-BIL or 2-HAL from Bracknell, and spent the day watching a selection of mostly Westerns, Warships and Brush Type 4s, with regular visits by Falcon, Blue Pullmans and the odd NB Type 2 and diesel shunter, plus an occasional Type 3 off the Southern. And lots of DMUs as well. I think there was a mixture of maroon and blue Westerns, and everything else in green or blue. I haven't scanned the photos yet.

 

Then I got bored with that, and got into railway history and architecture instead, dragging my parents around visiting old stations until I was old enough to drive.

[Black8]

WOW Gwiwer that was a very comprehensive reply, thank you very much. loved the comments about "doon sooth" and "oop north". Two terms still in use in my house, my girlfriends from down south and was shocked when i called Stafford down south last week. There are still a few questions i do have, when were the last chocolate and cream mk1's in use, what was the average ratio of diesel to steam hauled trains in the north west around 67/68 and how far north could hydraulics be found? Thanks you again to everyone who has replied, your information is appreciated.

[Fat Controller]

A few, amongst many, photo sites worth looking at for this period:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/the-evanses/collections/72157625420571968/

The first has a shot of one of the Bletchley 'Jinties' on it, with a rare view of a green BR GUV in the same photo.

I was (just) a bit too young to travel on my own whilst steam was still to be found, though I got to Barry whilst it was still choc-full of locos. I did do a lot of 'Mystexs' from Llanelli and Swansea in the period 1968-71; destinations I remember included Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds. Then, in 1972, my Careers teacher put me down for a week's course at Crewe as a potential Graduate Trainee- we lodged in the former Orphanaged, and got taken around various installations, such as Stoke PSB, Toton yard and depot, Crewe DED, Gresty Lane wagon repairs. The only difficulty was trying not to seem too enthusiastic, especially when arriving at depots with 50 or more locos on shed...Never did do the Graduate Trainee route, but eventually ended up working on a railway just after my fortieth birthday.

[Black8]

Thank you for the links Brian, i was already familiar with barking bills work and i don't think I'm going to be short of pictures between the 4 of them.

[Gwiwer]

when were the last chocolate and cream mk1's in use

Somewhat before 1968. I believe about 1965 but one of our experts may be able to give the actual month if not the exact date. I seem to recall discussion elsewhere in these forums regarding a Derby-based test-train making late use of stock in that livery.

 

what was the average ratio of diesel to steam hauled trains in the north west around 67/68

It depended upon where you were in the north west and when. With steam in rapid decline it was largely (but by no means exclusively) confined to freight and parcels workings by 1967. The exact proportion steadily diminished from perhaps 10% as 1967 dawned to zero by August 1968. But you would have been hard-pressed to record 10% of freights being steam-hauled in many areas because the changeover coincided with shed closures. So with no steam left on Merseyside for example anything in that area was decidedly rare but you could still rely on seeing quite a few steam-hauled freights over Copy Pit at the time.

 

and how far north could hydraulics be found?

Classes 35, 42 and 52 were sometimes tested to Derby and Sheffield and some were built at Crewe. Classes 22 and 43 were built at NBL in Glasgow and therefore have run on test and delivery all the way south from there. A goodly number of class 22 were returned there for rectification of defects also. Class 42 and 43 worked Paddington - Birkenhead Woodside trains until they were withdrawn and the route closed on 5/11/1967; a class 52 sometimes also appeared on those workings. While not exactly in the Preston area Birkenhead would surely be thought of as in north west by most people. Class 52 locos have made occasional appearances at Crewe on passenger and parcels workings over the years as well but seldom ventured farther north in traffic.

[Fat Controller]

Warships worked also to Crewe on SW-NW trains via the 'North and West' until the mid-1960s. Hymeks were built by Beyer-Peacock at Gorton, and so would have been seen on delivery runs from there. Even after the end of the Birkenhead services, Westerns continued on Paddington- Birmingham services almost until their final withdrawal. I have a recollection that a Hymek got as far as Speke Junction with a train of export cars from the Midlands at some point.

[Black8]

I have to admit i am very impressed at the level of knowledge available on this site. Thank you for the answers to all my questions Gwiwer, i did think getting exact figures for the amount of steam hauled services would be difficult due the rapid shed closures. Its just that if i intend to model this period i want to do it accurately and not just have processions of black 5's hauling blue and grey mk 1's, I assume steam would have been in use as station pilot and for steam heating a lot even towards the end?

[br2975]

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Somewhat before 1968. I believe about 1965 but one of our experts may be able to give the actual month if not the exact date. I seem to recall discussion elsewhere in these forums regarding a Derby-based test-train making late use of stock in that livery.

 

There are several photos on Flickr accounts of the occasional chocolate and cream liveried BR Mk.1 coach marshalled in NE - SW services taken at Derby circa 1967, behind a green Cl.47.

 

The Derby maroon set is probably the rake you are referring to, but was prominent during the early to mid 1970s.

 

The rake may have been used for test trains, but also found use on excursions and could turn up in many different locations.

 

It appeared to be 'semi-official' and quite often replacements would be found when one of the maroon coaches became defective.

 

Brian R

[jjnewitt]

Chocolate and cream Mk1 at Sheffield Midland April 1968. At least one made it to 1968.

 

The Warships worked the North & West services until summer 1964 when their duties were taken over by class 47s. I've never seen a picture of one on these services after that. Hydraulics worked to Crewe on freights from the Birmingham are in the late sixties.

 

Justin

[Black8]

Thanks Justin, i remembered seeing that picture and thinking i had seen blue and chocolate and cream coaches together

[Black8]

For anybody else who is interested in this period i have found this Flickr group http://www.flickr.com/groups/1968andallthat/pool/with/2148494463/#photo_2148494463 which contains a large amount of pictures from 67/68

 

I also found this which i think would be interesting to model

[RJL]

There is a book around titled " Diesels in the Midlans" by Derek Huntriss and published by Ian Allen. It's a good refarence book and has some good photographs of green and blue Diesels pulling mixed liveried stock.

 

Have you made a start on your project and what area / region are you modelling ?

 

All the best

 

Russ

[Gwiwer]

Steam certainly did haul blue-grey stock in regular - even daily - service as that livery arrived with the XP64 stock. The Manchester - Blackpool "club" trains were examples. But on the whole you might reasonably expect that a steam-hauled train would include mostly maroon stock with maybe one or two freshly-repainted blue-grey coaches in the rake. Just as the proportion of steam to diesel workings diminished so did that of maroon to blue-grey coaching stock.

 

Some steam locos were retained for use as static boilers and comprehensive details have been recorded in The Railway Magazine recently of all known examples used as such. Steam locos were also used as pre-heating units for coaching stock whether or not the train ended up hauled by steam. On the whole it would have been more efficient to use a diesel for such duties where available as it could just be switched on and left idling. At the time most diesel crews were two men and the steam-heating boiler still needed topping up from a crane or hose so there would be little to choose there but no fireman would be required in attendance.

[Black8]

Hi Russ, i haven't made a start yet but i will be modeling the north west from around 1966-68 and possibly of up to the early 70's. Due to a lack of space and funds i will probably take a Chris Nevard type approach and simply make a large amount of small layouts over time with the intention of eventually making something modular.

 

Thanks for the info again Gwiwer were abouts would these static boilers be used?

[Gwiwer]

Static boilers would have been used at depots and works. They sometimes provided heat, sometimes steam to power tools and plant, sometimes to warm coaching stock and probably other uses. Most used the boilers of former steam locomotives. Many of those were still in the frames and recognisably a locomotive. Some still carried their stock numbers and a very few even returned to traffic after static use. Sometimes a "Departmental" stock number was applied instead of the previous number. Where redundant locos were used as static boilers they often had the motion cut or a driving wheel removed to ensure they never ran again nor were used accidentally for powering a train. Fires could be maintained for long periods of well managed. Many illustrations of static boilers show the chimney connected to an extended pipeline to make use of steam for heating or power in an adjacent building.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Black8

 

My train spotting years were 1966 to 1972. There were exciting days for me as things seem to change on a weekly basis. I can remember chocolate and cream coaches on the WR. My mum telling us to get in the red (maroon) coach not the only blue and white (grey) one in the train as it must be special. The only steam loco numbers I recorded were SR pacifics. Sadly living in the south east of England I not see steam in its dying days.

 

Liveries changed very fast. Pre nationalisation coaches seemed to be there one Saturday when spotting but gone the next. With the various transport acts allowing more road haulage the shape of freight patterns on the railways changed. The clear air acts saw less coal being moved down south. It was exciting times for a young trainspotter.

 

The most important thing of that period for me was I had fun. I hope you have fun recreating the era. I for one am willing to answer any questions you have about my experiences.