More electrification?

[Southernman46]

IIRC the recent guage clearnece works to allow 9ft high containers on conventional wagons (W12 I think) was done in such a way as to provide pasive provision for OHLE, especially as the favoured option is to use a fixed rail rather than traditional coper wire (as done in the single bore tunnels at Edinburgh and proposed for the Severn Tunnel).

 

Yes correct

[phil-b259]

Southampton to Reading makes sense in the freight context so long as the wires reach to Millbrook and Maritime FLTs. In passenger terms overheads would need to reach at least Bournemouth and ideally Weymouth to become viable but then create a dual-system route over the distance from Basingstoke. SWT isn't going to want replacement stock any time soon despite the fact that their existing DC units have pantograph wells already. It would actually decrease operational flexibility to wire the route and remove the third rail.

 

 

But thats the point SWT wouldn't have to replace any of their stock, merely fit a pantograph and a underframe transformer - pratically everything else is already in place to make the 444s & 450s dual voltage. Don't forget the origional London Midland 350s were ordered as 450s for SWT and it was only a last minute change of heart by the DfT that got them made dual voltage when they decided amend the order.

 

As for it being viable proposition, well if you look it just as a SWT scheme then yes it does look a bit over the top when all that is really needed from their point of view is the renewal of the current 3rd rail distribution network. However as the government have made it quite clear the primary reason for putting in OHLE is to create a route for electrically hauled freight from Southampton to the north as well as being a 'test case' for the possable wider conversion of the 3d rail network. Electric locomotives draw far more current than EMUs and as the class 92s have demonstrated the 3rd rail system needs masive re-inforcement to be able to support such loads. Even then you have issues with gaps in the 3rd rail at pointwork, and the requirement for a fleet of expensive dual power locomtives. If you then add in things like the fact that DC power distribution is very inefficient compared to AC, the suseptability of 3rd rail to ice and snow, the percieved grater danger to staff from having a completley exposed 750V rail everywhere, its unsuitability for freight yards.

 

Taking the OHLE conversion on to Poole would have the advantage of allowing a future XC opperator the option of using electric traction on its services as well as encompassing all the origional 60s 'Bournemouth scheme' beyond Basingstoke. The only real issue is what to do about the Southern services to Southampton, either you have to retain 3rd rail from St Denys (and possably Eastleigh given some trains opperate via Southampton Airport) or you have to ensure dual voltage stock is provided. If the latter is chosen then the electrostars are just as easy to convert to dual voltage as SWT desiro fleet is and the 313s (assuming they are still about) can allways have their pantographs reinstated. While Weymouth would be usefull in terms of being able strengthen the supply and remove the current limits on electric trains, the fact that the equipment only dates from the late 80s counts against it, as does the fact that the only benificary would be SWT

[Xerces Fobe2]

But thats the point SWT wouldn't have to replace any of their stock, merely fit a pantograph and a underframe transformer - pratically everything else is already in place to make the 444s & 450s dual voltage. Don't forget the origional London Midland 350s were ordered as 450s for SWT and it was only a last minute change of heart by the DfT that got them made dual voltage when they decided amend the order.

 

 

I seem to recall AC/ DC ( no not Angus Young!) testing was carried one evening a few years ago when a Class 350 traveled to Southampton.

 

XF

[Glorious NSE]

Nigel, the 350/1 have even had regular passenger usage on DC, sets were hired in by Southern at one point to cover their services over the WLL...

[Xerces Fobe2]

Nigel, the 350/1 have even had regular passenger usage on DC, sets were hired in by Southern at one point to cover their services over the WLL...

 

Thanks I forgot this - it was cover for cover for the late delivery of 377's

 

XF

[Gwiwer]

Nigel, the 350/1 have even had regular passenger usage on DC, sets were hired in by Southern at one point to cover their services over the WLL...

 

A hasty shot but not one you can grab any more. 350111 on turnback at East Croydon while working the Milton Keynes service for Southern. 09/06/2009.

 

[Xerces Fobe2]

A hasty shot but not one you can grab any more. 350111 on turnback at East Croydon while working the Milton Keynes service for Southern. 09/06/2009.

 

 

As an aside it looks like both manufactures get the yellow corridor connection doors from the same supplier!

 

XF

[Gwiwer]

As another aside I have heard comments from users of that service to the effect that the 377/2s are far more comfortable than the 350/1s were. I once encountered a chap waiting at Harrow & Wealdstone for Watford who would let all the LO / LM services go by and take the Southern for the same reason.

[Edwin_m]

Interestingly, if you believe this article, Basingstoke to Poole conversion would only cost £150m, which is only three times as much as Goblin electrification and 50% more than replacing the OLE on the Great Eastern. This looks like pretty good value, but it may be net of what they would have to have spent renewing the DC supply equipment.

[Gwiwer]

GOBLIN really is a no-brainer despite the recent (and quite modest) investment in new diesel passenger rolling stock. It is one of those critical missing links which effectively prevents electric haulage throughout of a significant amount of freight. Flip the coin and ask how much of that freight will still be on the route when Oxford - Bedford is available. Probably still a fair amount as Barking lies very close to Tilbury and Dagenham which give rise to large flows that cannot be sent another way without lengthy detours.

 

That therefore makes sense as a priority infil scheme and would also permit electrics to run via the Canonbury curve onto the ECML as well.

 

In times of tightened belts best value must be looked at. Reading / Basingstoke - Southampton or beyond would come lower. It wouldn't link to an electrified network unless wires were also taken from Oxford on to Birmingham and while bi-mode passenger trains are a possibility (though at the cost of additional weight and therefore cost and fuel consumption) it might remain more cost-efficient to couple a shed onto the wagons at Millbrook and run it through to Lawley Street for example.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Taking the OHLE conversion on to Poole would have the advantage of allowing a future XC opperator the option of using electric traction on its services as well as encompassing all the origional 60s 'Bournemouth scheme' beyond Basingstoke.

 

Ah but don't forget that XC operations no longer extend beyond Bournemouth and haven't served Poole for nearly a decade IIRC.

IMHO, it's quite unlikely that there would be justification to reintroduce the XC extension to Poole.

 

 

[phil-b259]

Ah but don't forget that XC operations no longer extend beyond Bournemouth and haven't served Poole for nearly a decade IIRC.

IMHO, it's quite unlikely that there would be justification to reintroduce the XC extension to Poole.

 

 

 

 

Yup, I forgot.....

[Xerces Fobe2]

According to Modern Railways magazine, it appears that the GOBLIN electrification will not happen in the near future, as the money is consider better spent on the Basingstoke - Southampton (Poole) conversation to 25KV. I just hope Boris gets on the case and sorts this out as it crass stupidity to run live this relatively short line diesel operated.

 

I was also wondering if this grand electrification project is going end up another badly thought idea by the DfT as the freight operators have invested heavily in a fleet of new diesel locomotives over the last few years and appears that they have no appetite to procure/lease new electric locomotives. I was thinking of a possible solution for fixed freightliner formations, an ISO container containing a transformer etc. and a pantograph which can be retracted within the container this could then be moved to the front end of the train at terminals and connected to modified diesels locomotives!

 

XF

[Gwiwer]

I'd love to see the argument advanced for that.

 

Basingstoke - Southampton (or Poole) is already electrified and the third rail isn't going to be ripped up. If (and I reckon it's an if and not a given) the lineside equipment is life-expired it can be replaced for a fraction of the cost of installing a duplicated electrification. Reading - Basingstoke is a gap in the electrified network but wiring up isn't going to bring any meaningful improvement to the passenger service. Thus taking the wires to Southampton is only going to benefit freight which will remain diesel-hauled for so long as there is also a gap in the wires north of Oxford.

 

On the other hand GOBLIN plugs a gaping hole in the existing overhead network and will permit throughout operation by electrics of freight currently diesel powered under the wires for much of its journey. There might be benefits for the passenger service as well if line speeds could be lifted and the numerous chronic speed restrictions removed. Already there is a 15-minute headway service for much of the day which is double the previous best-ever offering so don't expect anything more. But 5 minutes cut from the end-to-end trip might make it a little more attractive and in the words of Tesco "Every little helps".

 

Second-hand class 444 / 450 EMU sets might not find too much other work unless converted to overhead power and sent north. A small fleet of quite new class 172s would probably be snapped up by someone like Chiltern if they were to be released from LOROL service.

[Xerces Fobe2]

I

Basingstoke - Southampton (or Poole) is already electrified and the third rail isn't going to be ripped up. If (and I reckon it's an if and not a given) the lineside equipment is life-expired it can be replaced for a fraction of the cost of installing a duplicated electrification. Reading - Basingstoke is a gap in the electrified network but wiring up isn't going to bring any meaningful improvement to the passenger service. Thus taking the wires to Southampton is only going to benefit freight which will remain diesel-hauled for so long as there is also a gap in the wires north of Oxford.

 

 

North of Oxford was in the plan I saw, via Leamington Spa and Coventry as well as via the Oxford - Bletchley line when it is a eventually re-instated and electified,

 

XF

[SwissRailPassion]

As another aside I have heard comments from users of that service to the effect that the 377/2s are far more comfortable than the 350/1s were. I once encountered a chap waiting at Harrow & Wealdstone for Watford who would let all the LO / LM services go by and take the Southern for the same reason.

I sympathise with your chap at Harrow.

I was very impressed by the 377's. The level of comfort and quality is far superior to the 350 and the large windows are excellent. The harsher interior of the 350, mainly caused by the aggressive metal seat backs and thin upholstery, could be softened and improved quite easily in the next refurbishment. The same goes for the 185 when compared to the 170.

[brushman47544]

Basingstoke - Southampton (or Poole) is already electrified and the third rail isn't going to be ripped up. If (and I reckon it's an if and not a given) the lineside equipment is life-expired it can be replaced for a fraction of the cost of installing a duplicated electrification. Reading - Basingstoke is a gap in the electrified network but wiring up isn't going to bring any meaningful improvement to the passenger service. Thus taking the wires to Southampton is only going to benefit freight which will remain diesel-hauled for so long as there is also a gap in the wires north of Oxford.

 

Second-hand class 444 / 450 EMU sets might not find too much other work unless converted to overhead power and sent north. A small fleet of quite new class 172s would probably be snapped up by someone like Chiltern if they were to be released from LOROL service.

North of Oxford was in the plan I saw, via Leamington Spa and Coventry as well as via the Oxford - Bletchley line when it is a eventually re-instated and electified,

 

XF

 

You've got to start somewhere - there's too much to do in one single project - and Basingstoke to Southampton/Poole is as good a section as any if the exising 3rd rail system is life expired and with the 444s/450s being built for simple conversion to run on 25kv. And if north of Oxford is also planned, then it makes even more sense.

 

And most freight companies lease their locos so replacing diesels with electrics in their fleets at the appropriate time shouldn't be an issue, however new they are.

[Edwin_m]

A lot of freight that ran electric from Ipswich a couple of years ago will now/soon have to be diesel via Ely, so those companies with electrics will probably be finding some are surplus to requirements. I agree GOBLIN ought to have a good case but as I noted in another thread* that short stretch appears to be priced at a third of what it would take to do Basingstoke to Poole so it is looking a bit expensive.

 

*may even have been further up this one!

[Titan]

What makes me really angry is that the money wasted on the WCML franchise debacle would just about have paid for GOBLIN. One really does wonder what kind of railway we could of had if only the money got spent in the right places!

[Christopher125]

I'd love to see the argument advanced for that.

 

Basingstoke - Southampton (or Poole) is already electrified and the third rail isn't going to be ripped up. If (and I reckon it's an if and not a given) the lineside equipment is life-expired it can be replaced for a fraction of the cost of installing a duplicated electrification. Reading - Basingstoke is a gap in the electrified network but wiring up isn't going to bring any meaningful improvement to the passenger service. Thus taking the wires to Southampton is only going to benefit freight which will remain diesel-hauled for so long as there is also a gap in the wires north of Oxford.

 

It makes much more sense if wiring is extended to Poole, as the latest Rail Engineer suggests could be on the drawing board - Voyagers on Bournemouth services can be replaced by dual voltage EMU's while electrified Reading-Basingstoke services could benefit from the new western access to Heathrow.

 

Chris

[Guest Phil]

You've got to start somewhere - there's too much to do in one single project - and Basingstoke to Southampton/Poole is as good a section as any if the exising 3rd rail system is life expired and with the 444s/450s being built for simple conversion to run on 25kv. And if north of Oxford is also planned, then it makes even more sense.

 

And most freight companies lease their locos so replacing diesels with electrics in their fleets at the appropriate time shouldn't be an issue, however new they are.

 

Basingstoke-Southampton is what was announced in the "Electric Spine" as I understand it, also that the route cannot be dual voltage so the third rail capability is likely to be dumped, if this project goes ahead. With eVoyager now apparently dead in the water, it seems to me that the only beneficiary of this scheme is Freightliner who might be able to ditch some of their more elderly class 66s in favour of considerably older class 86s if they are still around then.

 

The other fact that puzzles me is who are DfT expecting to pick up the tab for the conversion of SWTs Desiros to dual voltage ability. I can't imagine the TOC or the Rosco lashing out millions of quid to convert purpose built 750v DC units, just because the DfT think it is a good idea to get imported containers to and from Southampton in a greener fashion.

[phil-b259]

Basingstoke-Southampton is what was announced in the "Electric Spine" as I understand it, also that the route cannot be dual voltage so the third rail capability is likely to be dumped, if this project goes ahead. With eVoyager now apparently dead in the water, it seems to me that the only beneficiary of this scheme is Freightliner who might be able to ditch some of their more elderly class 66s in favour of considerably older class 86s if they are still around then.

 

The other fact that puzzles me is who are DfT expecting to pick up the tab for the conversion of SWTs Desiros to dual voltage ability. I can't imagine the TOC or the Rosco lashing out millions of quid to convert purpose built 750v DC units, just because the DfT think it is a good idea to get imported containers to and from Southampton in a greener fashion.

 

But as has been pointed out the SWT Desiro fleet is not purpose built for DC opperation, merely being a dual voltage EMU with the transformer and pantograph missing. Everything else, including the internal wiring is already fitted so its not really that grater job. Yes at first sight it may seem to bring extra costs to SWT but if the transmission and switchgear savings are passed on in the form of lower electricity charges then SWT might well gain from the situation.

[jamie92208]

This months Modern Railways makes very interesting reading as usual but does touch on two things mentioned in this topic.

1. The decision to drop the electric voyager. Apaprently one major factor was the cost of putting in extra wiring to carry the traction current along the train from the pantograph car, lots of new wiring in every coach as presumably each individual coach only has internal wiring from it's own generator to its own traction motors for traction current, that coupled with increased risk of short leases due to an expanding electrified network killed the proposal.

2. The fact that GOBLIN will be expensive to wire due to a) the nature of the route with lots of viaduct in urban areas making OLE foundations expensive and restricted worksites so lots of possessions would be needed. Thus the cash was vired over to the Bsingstoke Southampton project.

 

Jamie

[Titan]

Just to reiterate the point about how the Desiros are designed as dual voltage from the outset, you can clearly see the well provided for the pantograph at the rear of the second coach.

 

 

Having worked briefly in the dim and distant past for a Rosco, I can tell you that No.1 priorty for the ordering of any electric EMU is dual voltage capability - they do not want to be stuck with a load of off lease DC EMU's if AC units are required, and that if they are temporarily DC only, then they are designed to be converted to dual/AC only with the minimum of cost. So much so it would not suprise me that all that was required was literally to bolt on a transformer/pantograph to the waiting mounting points, plug in to the existing wiring socklets provided for them, upload the dual voltage software to the computer, job done. It may even be possible that all it takes is a day on depot for the job, so even at silly railway prices its unlikely to be more than a few thousand per unit.

[96701]

Just to reiterate the point about how the Desiros are designed as dual voltage from the outset, you can clearly see the well provided for the pantograph at the rear of the second coach.

 

 

Having worked briefly in the dim and distant past for a Rosco, I can tell you that No.1 priorty for the ordering of any electric EMU is dual voltage capability - they do not want to be stuck with a load of off lease DC EMU's if AC units are required, and that if they are temporarily DC only, then they are designed to be converted to dual/AC only with the minimum of cost. So much so it would not suprise me that all that was required was literally to bolt on a transformer/pantograph to the waiting mounting points, plug in to the existing wiring socklets provided for them, upload the dual voltage software to the computer, job done. It may even be possible that all it takes is a day on depot for the job, so even at silly railway prices its unlikely to be more than a few thousand per unit.

 

They'll have to remove the concrete block before putting the transformer in.