Converting to DCC

[Heinz57]

Hi all,

 

So after a good few years of firm resistance, I have finaly succombed and decided to join the dark side. For my next layout I will be going to DCC.

 

So I have a few points/questions I would like to discuss with you.

 

Firstly is control systems. Now I realise this particular point has been discussed many times before. But after trawling the web and books I still havn't made up my mind so I would like some recomendations. Here are my basic requirements for the system - It needs to have a speed knop rather than buttons or lever, the display needs to be easy to use but also give me plenty of info, I would also perfer it if it was as sort of table top one (I much perfer these controls to hand held). So a particular one I have my eye on is the Hornby Elite, it seems to tick all of my requirment boxes. But what is it like? It seems quite popular but I have also heard mixed reviews. Any other recomendations? With regards to how many locos I will be running, I don't know. My collection is always expanding, plus there are also the times when a friend may run locos on my layout. Regarding points and accessories, for the time being I would like to keep these DC controled, however I am keeping my options open for a future DCC conversion for these.

 

Something else I would like to do in the future is perhaps computer control.

 

The next is chips. For starters I will be using Bachmann ones, they seem to do the job and are suitable for a newbie wanting to get things running. Eventualy I will aim to have everything fitted with a Lenz chip which I've heard are pretty good. Some will also eventualy have sound. I've heard most Bachmann locos, except for perhaps the smaller ones use a 21 pin standard, is this true? Also, my other locos, how will I know what chip they take? I've heard that non DCC ready locos (i.e. older ones) once converted use an 8 pin, and Hornby don't use 21 so these will be 8 too, true or false? But what about the others?

 

Anything else I am missing?

 

Hope you can help,

 

Cheers,

 

Heinz

[Savoyard]

Hi Heinz,

 

Welcome to the dark side! I am sure once you are into DCC you will wonder why you hadn't taken the step earlier.

 

It is late so I will be brief but with regards to controllers you will get as many opnions as there are members on this site about which is the best.

 

I have tried several systems and I have a few of them, including the Hornby Elite, Bachmann Dynamis, Lenz Set 100, NCE Powercab and ESU ECoS (I suppose I am a DCC junkie!)

 

My ultimate preference is the ESU ECoS.

 

The Lenz is a very robust system but the hardware is now a little dated and costs about £280.

 

The Hornby Elite has greatly improved software compared to when it was first released but I find still a little clunky and costs from about £150 to £200,

 

The Bachmann Dynamis is a reasonable cost entry system at around £100 but I don't like the joystick control and as it relies on Infra-red for the radio control I found it so frustrating keeping it in line of site of the receiver.

 

The NCE Power Cab pro is an excellent starter set at around £130 and can be added too, it uses a small wheel similar to a mouse and is quite precise, I use it on my test track as it is easy to set up. It can also be expanded at a future date.

 

Gaugemaster also produce a starter set at about £130 and I have used one briefly in my local shop and seems quite a reasonable starter system and has a speed knob, I presume it can be used with the more powerful Gaugemaster system.

 

I put the ESU ECoS at the top because it has so much on it from the start, the trouble is that comes at a price of around £550 (Digitrains) but when you consider it has two very precise speed knob controllers, a full colour display, a computer interface, very comprehensive software for controlling the locos, for instance the ability to have easy access to control upto 10 locos on one screen; a track plan screen and a screen to easily program your locos. When you all these included 'extras' compared to other systems it actually works out cheaper. For instance an extra controller for a Lenz Set 100 is about £145 and a computer interface is about £120 that is not far off the price of the ECoS and you still don't have the colour screen and all the software you get on the ECoS. Also the software on the ECoS is regularty updated with added features. So if your present or future budget can stretch to the ECoS I would give it serious consideration.

 

As you don't live too far from Digitrains it may be worth paying them a visit as they have a number of systems for you to try on their demo layout in the shop and get a hands on experience of the different systems, Or if you can make it to our exhibition in Bacup on 3rd/4th November I will be using the ECoS on Holcombe Brook and you will be welcome to give it a try,

 

I hope this helps.

 

Peter

[draconusde]

Hi Hienz,

 

I'm going through the same thing as you right now, so have been doing lots of internet research, but by no means am I an expert.

 

From what I;ve read, the Hornby Elite has a few compatablilty issues with other products, which some users find really frustrating on a system thats supposed to be compatable. The dynamis system seems ok, but is a marmite thing, either people love it or hate it.

 

The NCE powercab system seems to be universally loved, and seems to be the best choice as an introduction to DCC and future expansions.

 

But....the best thing would be to go along to somewhere like digitrains or dcc concepts who have test tracks set up for you to try with different systems to see which YOU like before spending a considerable lump of money.

[Nigelcliffe]

Go for the better quality chips like Lenz, Digitrax and a few others. Sound: ESU are top of the line, mostly

 

Ahem...

Digitrax chips are very much mid-market so-so, I usually end up removing/replacing them from models as they are not good enough.

Lenz usually good, but lacking some details for setup. ESU usually good.

The "few others" worth considering should include Zimo, as probably the best chip designer currently on sale.

 

Sound, for UK prototypes the choice is essentially ESU (market leader) and Zimo (rather fewer people making sounds for them, so fewer options available).

 

 

 

 

The original poster asked for a controller with a speed knob. The clear option not mentioned is a Digitrax Zephyr at around £150. Highly expandable, and good value for the price. I'd join with the "probably not the Elite" sentiments.

 

 

- Nigel

[beast66606]

I'd join the "We've used Digitrax for years and it works for us" lobby.

[roundhouse]

I can't comment much on other systems as had very limited use of them. We use Digitrax systems between most of our small group of friends.

 

The Zephyr has a built in lever control knob representing a real locos power control. To this, you can add the DT400 throttle which has two small control knobs and a panel of press buttons below which might look a bit daunting but does make loco and function selection very easy once you get used to it.

 

There are other simpler throttles with larger control knobs and are cheaper and offer less functionality but are useful as extra contorllers especially where you are shunting and not changing loco regularly.

 

The more expensive Digitrax command units require a throttel (hand held contorller) to be plugged in to use them but do offer more power output and even more flexibility for future expansion. The Digitrax systems do allow a computer to be hooked up to them quite easily using an interface such as the LocobufferII or Dgitirax's own interface the PR3.

 

Most other systems also allow computer hook up but I am not familiar with them so will leave that for other to comment on.

Be carefull nt to assume what type of socket different manucaturers use in their locos as Bachmann have used 8 pin but in newer models tend to be the 21 pin. Honrby normally use the 8 pin but more recently soem have 21 pin.

 

Best to check inside each of your locos before buying the decoders. You will need to know how to get into them to install the decoders anyway.

 

Those locos that are pre DCC will require the decoders to be hard wired (soldered) in. If there is space you can fit a socket to allow a decoder to be plugged in but I tend to just hard wire the decoder in.

 

Ian

[melmerby]

A question to ask is:

Will I want a computer interface to start with? i.e. will I want any automatic control - points, signals, trains etc.

Software then varies from basic to sophisticated, free to expensive (not necessarily the same thing!)

 

This will limit your choice as some controllers don't have connectivity (or good connectivity) for computers.

 

Keith

[Suzie]

There are of course several different sockets used in locos, and realistically you need to look at your loco before buying a decoder because no 00 UK manufacturer has standardised on one socket across the range, and some locos vary with different sockets used on the same model. If your loco does not have a socket you can add a PLuX adapter board to take a plug in decoder (or you might need an ESU 21-pin socket if you need to use an ESU sound decoder which only support the obsolete but hanging on 21-pin socket).

 

As you have already decided that cheap decoders are not for you in the long term, why not buy the good quality decoders from the start. You are unlikely to get a good feel for DCC using poor quality decoders so think about getting Lenz or Zimo from the outset. You mention running friend's locos, if they are to be run as a DC loco on your DCC system (not recommended) the Bachmann decoders will stop working!

 

Sound rather narrows the choice because unfortunately most UK sound projects are only available for ESU decoders, but more projects are coming along for Zimo from places like Digitrains (see the Hornby magazine articles for some inspiration).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... For starters I will be using Bachmann ones, they seem to do the job and are suitable for a newbie wanting to get things running. Eventualy I will aim to have everything fitted with a Lenz chip which I've heard are pretty good...

My question would revolve around what exactly you will be operating, and what your running performance and operational expectation is like. Good decoders matched thoughtfully to mechanisms can deliver consistent results across a range of types for minimum cost. (I see DCC as a utility, so keeping the cost down counts.)

 

The centre motor twin bogie drives are instrinsically very smooth running due to a good sized motor, and a drive line through gears to the axles. A budget decoder - and the Bachmann 36-553/554 happens to be the one I use - does the job very nicely for little cash in most cases. What a budget decoder like this does not have is access to the speed curve, so it either matches the motor characteristics or it doesn't when it comes to speed matching which is something I require. Also there is insufficient inertia setting for steam locos - just too limited a range for goods types especially.

 

For a little more money there's the Lenz standard: this one will drive over 95% of current OO models very well indeed. Smooth creep in and out of motion, ample adjustment for speed matching, long acceleration and deceleration times. Annoyingly not available in 21pin, the much more expensive Lenz Silver is required, unless prepared to alter by hardwiring a loco with this fitting (I must be getting lazy, not prepared to do a little soldering to save circa £10). Those are my standard steam loco and 'difficult diesel' decoders.

 

Then the already mentioned Zimo, for the very few truly 'difficult' cases. Huge range of adjustment to justify the price. There is now a budget Zimo decoder which I have not needed to sample yet; just waiting for a difficult case to justify a purchase...

 

End result, all the locos perform consistently to the standard I require for smoothness and speed matching, for the least money. And there is a further twist. The Bachmann decoders come with the convenient features of 'inertia off' on the same function controls as Lenz: the Zimo decoders are very flexible and can be set up to mimic Lenz. As a result operationally all decoders perform alike, no need to remember that loco X has this type, Loco Y has that type. When running a layout with many locos, that's quite a benefit in my view.

[melmerby]

 

For a little more money there's the Lenz standard: this one will drive over 95% of current OO models very well indeed. Smooth creep in and out of motion, ample adjustment for speed matching, long acceleration and deceleration times. Annoyingly not available in 21pin, the much more expensive Lenz Silver is required, unless prepared to alter by hardwiring a loco with this fitting (I must be getting lazy, not prepared to do a little soldering to save circa £10). Those are my standard steam loco and 'difficult diesel' decoders.

 

 

Use a Lenz Standard + and a 21-8 adaptor (£3) if you don't want to buy the Silver 21+.

Admittedly the adaptor might not fit in all 21pin situations, due to height restrictions but it certainly fits many.

 

Keith

[shibushe]

Most of what you are asking has or is being replied to. Personaly I would avoid Hornby. When it comes to the number of locos you will be runing look at it this way. My controller is capable of running 16 locos all at once, BUT impossible on my own. Most command stations will have a memory to store all your loco IDs, and to be able to recall when required.

 

Any one coming into DCC now have the advantage of the technology that was not availble, say even 5 years ago. Decoders, smaller and more powerfull. Locos DCC Ready, or fitted. No more hot wiring.

Point control is much easier, DCC point motors are available from various suppliers, you can even operate Signals and colour lights just by the action of the point itself.

 

In the end it comes down to budjet, but do think of the future.

Try if you can get some hands on experiance of differant systems.It will be a learning curve, and you must blank your mind from Analouge. Digitrains. DCC Supplies. Bromsgrove Model have most systems ready for you to try.

" ITS NOT AS DARK AS YOU THINK" Regards.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....or you might need an ESU 21-pin socket if you need to use an ESU sound decoder which only support the obsolete but hanging on 21-pin socket....

 

Err! Not correct Suzie.

The 21-pin is obsolete, however it is not the only option with these sound decoders.

 

The current model LokSound V4.0 (standard size DCC version) comes with 5 interface options....

 

(Model no. - interface type)

56499 - 6-pin

54400 - 8-pin

54499 - 21-pin MTC (direct)

55400 - PluX12 (on a harness)

56498 - Plux16 (direct)

 

There are other family versions of the LokSound V4.0 decoder , the Micro, M4 and XL with different combinations available...

For example, the LokSound Micro V4.0 comes in 4 versions....

 

54800 - 6-pin

54899 - 8-pin

55800 - PluX12

54898 - Next18 (direct)

 

 

 

..

[AlanRogers]

As a recent convert to DCC, I hope that my input is relevant.

 

I know a number of people using DCC on their layouts local to me which boiled it down to two choices of system; Digitrax or NCE PowerCab. Whilst the NCE unit is arguably more intuitive and affordable, I eventually picked up a Digitrax Zephyr on eBay for a price I was comfortable with.

 

After seeking advice, from Paul Martin of EDM Models, I acquired five TCS M1 decoders which were easy to fit and very functional for the price. I've seen the Bachmann fitted decoders and the TCS ones give more control. Speed curves and variable lights to name but two.

 

The cap for me was watching my five year old son get to grips with it all. He understood the interface after very little showing and can drive trains more consistently than with a traditional handheld DC controller.

 

Hoping this helps.

[melmerby]

Err! Not correct Suzie.

The 21-pin is obsolete, however it is not the only option with these sound decoders.

 

If you want to be pedantic the MTC21 is officially obsolescent, meaning not recommended for new work. (except it is still be installed in new items!)

But when have manufacturers ever taken any notice of advisory specifications?

 

Keith

[cromptonnut]

It's very hard to 'recommend a system' as we all have different requirements and of course different things might work better for different layouts.

 

The best thing to do is to go to a shop such as Digitrains in Lincolnshire (http://www.digitrains.co.uk/) as they have 4 or 5 different sets permanently connected to their 'test track' which you can 'play with' and see if anything appeals.

 

The other alternative is if you go to an exhibition, look out for DCC layouts and talk to the owners, they might be willing to let you have a go and then you can see how they feel to you.

 

Depending on your layout, you may need additional equipment such as boosters if you are running O gauge or multiple locos at the same time. Also, if you want computer control some are easier than others, also block detection etc is easier on some equipment.

 

But if all you want to do is run a couple of sound equipped locos, most basic controllers will be able to do that for you.

 

Personally I use a Lenz set 90 with a Compact a 'slave' controller, and USB interface for computer control although at present I'm only using the 90 controller as it's a layout under construction.

[Suzie]

Thank you Ron. Excellent news that there is an ESU PLuX decoder option. The last reason for installing 21-pin sockets is gone.

[melmerby]

Thank you Ron. Excellent news that there is an ESU PLuX decoder option. The last reason for installing 21-pin sockets is gone.

Unless your name is Bachmann.

Who IIRC started installing them after they were declared not recommended for new installations by NMRA!

 

There hasn't been much reason to install them for some time IMHO

 

Keith

[Ron Ron Ron]

Thank you Ron. Excellent news that there is an ESU PLuX decoder option. The last reason for installing 21-pin sockets is gone.

Unless your name is Bachmann.

Who IIRC started installing them after they were declared not recommended for new installations by NMRA!

 

There hasn't been much reason to install them for some time IMHO

 

Goodness knows why they are dragging their heals on this issue ?

 

.

[SRman]

Your list earlier, Ron, made me think: Dapol will be using the newer PLuX22 standard for their new releases - they have promised the 22-pin interface for the upcoming class 73s and 29s of their own, plus the D600s for Kernow, amongst other things.

 

I have not, to date seen any PLuX 22 pin decoders for sale, sound or otherwise. Presumably these will follow in the manufacturers lists as more and more models become available using those standards.

 

I'm also hoping there will be some sort of adaptor available as I currently have two class 73s with 8-pin sound decoders and would wish to transfer the sound into the new super-detailed class 73s. If the major decoder manufacturers don't do it, maybe a third party manufacturer will. Here's hoping, anyway!

[Nigelcliffe]

Your list earlier, Ron, made me think: Dapol will be using the newer PLuX22 standard for their new releases - they have promised the 22-pin interface for the upcoming class 73s and 29s of their own, plus the D600s for Kernow, amongst other things.

 

I have not, to date seen any PLuX 22 pin decoders for sale, sound or otherwise. Presumably these will follow in the manufacturers lists as more and more models become available using those standards.

 

 

PLuX is a flexible standard. You can put a smaller decoder into a larger socket. So, a loco with a PLuX22 socket can take a PLuX12 or a PLuX16 decoder, or any other size up to PLuX22. If you fit the smaller decoder, then there may be fewer features (eg. sound requires a certain number of pins, as do certain lighting outputs).

 

Plenty of makers list PLuX decoders in their ranges; ESU, Lenz, Zimo, etc.. As is normal, UK model ranges tend to be behind the leading edge on adopting standards.

 

- Nigel

[Thos]

My son's train set (I hesitate to call it a layout) has a Hornby Select (£76 from Hattons) that is perfectly acceptable for driving the trains with no hidden sidings. He has four engines, one of which is still analogue, and can drive them all at once. With a single speed knob he just needs to type in the code of the one he wants to change speed, and if he gets into difficulties he just presses the big red button to stop everything dead.

 

When we get our proper layouts we'll need to upgrade and have a computer interface, but the Select is fine for now.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I have not, to date seen any PLuX 22 pin decoders for sale, sound or otherwise. Presumably these will follow in the manufacturers lists as more and more models become available using those standards.

 

As Nigel has said, there are plenty of decoder manufacturers making PluX fitted versions of their decoders.

At the last count, earlier this year, there were over 20 different decoder models available, including half a dozen sound decoders.

 

 

.

[Heinz57]

Hi there chaps,

 

Sorry about my delay in replying.

 

There's a lot of useful infomation in your posts. Thanks a lot.

 

The ECoS is indeed a system that looks absolutly cracking. I might consider saving for that system. If I do I have two options open to me. Get something else to use as a temp, or hold off DCC conversion until I have enough for the controler.

 

What are the Guagemaster systems like? I've always been a fan of there DC controls and other equipment. So maybe I'd like to stay 'Gaugemaster through and through' and use one of their systems. I know they are handheld (and I did originaly have my heart set on a desktop one) I perhaps need to broaden the horizons a little, I realise I am limiting myself if I stick to desktop.

 

Cheers,

 

Heinz

[Nigelcliffe]

Gaugemaster don't make any DCC stuff. Their system is a rebadged MRC unit from the US.

 

As a system it's OK, but expansion is very limited. Computer support is limited as MRC don't allow other software writers to connect to their system.

 

 

Nigel

[Savoyard]

Hi Heinz,

 

The ECoS is indeed a system that looks absolutly cracking. I might consider saving for that system. If I do I have two options open to me. Get something else to use as a temp, or hold off DCC conversion until I have enough for the controler.

 

One extra the ECoS has is the sniffer port and this allows you to connect any other make of controller to that port and then use it with the ECoS, so if for instance you but the NCE Power Cab/Gaugemaster starter sets your money is not wasted as you can use them as extra controllers with the ECoS.

 

I use an iPhone/iPod App called TouchCab with my ECoS and gives a nice wireless controller, it can also be used with the Lenz system but as the ECoS comes with a computer interface you can connect to your home network and the App only costs about £6.

 

Peter