Hattons Model Railways of Widnes (formerly Liverpool).

[woodenhead]

Slightly intrigued by the suggested legal proceedings.......what are they regarding - Sale of the century, or something else..

 

 

Andy Y said on 01/12/2018 post 2032 "pending clarification due to legal considerations."

I can't find any reference to legal proceedings.

Unless maybe Nicholas Parsons is suing for copyright infringement

[Adrian Stevenson]

I decided to have a trip up to Hattons this week rather than do mail order as I had some time free off work. The shop fronts their large modern warehouse. They have quite a few items on display, mainly OO gauge, but also a fair bit of O gauge, which is what I am now interested in. Free tea and coffee for customers and a customer toilet was a nice touch. I was served by Bryan and he was most helpful. I also took some OO gauge items to sell and took up their offer of a store credit (which was promptly spent!) which was £20 more than another leading UK store offered me.

 

Very pleased with their service and would certainly use them again.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Ian Hargrave]

Andy Y said on 01/12/2018 post 2032 "pending clarification due to legal considerations."

I can't find any reference to legal proceedings.

Sorry Colin but there is a world of difference between consideration and proceeding.The latter hopefully will not occur.

[Coryton]

Sorry Colin but there is a world of difference between consideration and proceeding.The latter hopefully will not occur.

 

I think that was Colin's point.

[Ian Hargrave]

I think that was Colin's point.

Then sincere apologies for my misunderstanding.

[woodenhead]

You can place orders with other retailers who have the stock you desire, how are you hostage?

[girlinb]

Given its now been best part of six weeks since the last new Bachmann items appeared on the New Stock list (not discounts, split from sets or from other retailers) then whatever the issue is (looking at the T&C's I have an obvious candidate or two) I have cancelled and bought elsewhere and anyone with pre-orders that have arrived with other retailers should consider the same in case Bachmann sell out - within the 8 week from release period there is no greater discount than 15% other than free postage which some shops do offer but Hattons don't

 

I do think Hattons (not Bachmann) should issue some sort of statement as at the moment customers have no idea which if you are on the ball doesn't matter as you can cancel and get elsewhere but if not you could end up disappointed if Bachmann sell out before this is resolved

Edited December 8, 2018 by girlinb

[Andy Hayter]

Sadly I have to agree.

I cancelled my Bachmann H1 order with Hattons and placed it with another northern supplier who has delivered very promptly despite the product being out of stock on pre-orders with Hattons.  I has a very real fear that leaving the order with them would result in no supply.  

Whatever the issues, I hope they are rapidly resolved.

[Neil]

Given its now been best part of six weeks since the last new Bachmann items appeared on the New Stock list (not discounts, split from sets or from other retailers) then whatever the issue is (looking at the T&C's I have an obvious candidate or two) I have cancelled and bought elsewhere and anyone with pre-orders that have arrived with other retailers should consider the same in case Bachmann sell out - within the 8 week from release period there is no greater discount than 15% other than free postage which some shops do offer but Hattons don't

 

I do think Hattons (not Bachmann) should issue some sort of statement as at the moment customers have no idea which if you are on the ball doesn't matter as you can cancel and get elsewhere but if not you could end up disappointed if Bachmann sell out before this is resolved

 

 

Sadly I have to agree.

I cancelled my Bachmann H1 order with Hattons and placed it with another northern supplier who has delivered very promptly despite the product being out of stock on pre-orders with Hattons.  I has a very real fear that leaving the order with them would result in no supply.  

Whatever the issues, I hope they are rapidly resolved.

 

With customers cancelling orders and buying elsewhere it appears as though it could be in Hattons' best interests to make a statement not only to reassure customers who have already placed orders but for those who may be thinking of doing so in the weeks and months to come. Hattons have an excellent reputation for customer service, such things are hard won and it would be a shame if it suffered as a result of speculation and rumour filling the void.

[JSpencer]

I agree I can buy elsewhere, which is what I will probably do but equally cutting off a shop's supply for no real obvious reason and which has to be kept hidden is a sure fire way to make people loose faith in any form of pre-order system.

 

I don't like placing orders and then cancelling as it means a shop can get stuck with stock that they also pre-ordered from the manufacturer using figures based on mine and others orders. I have had a lot of good faith with suppliers in this hobby and would be disapointed if that fell array due to hidden disputes outside any contract terms, stopping stock being supplied. 

[girlinb]

I agree I can buy elsewhere, which is what I will probably do but equally cutting off a shop's supply for no real obvious reason and which has to be kept hidden is a sure fire way to make people loose faith in any form of pre-order system.

 

I don't like placing orders and then cancelling as it means a shop can get stuck with stock that they also pre-ordered from the manufacturer using figures based on mine and others orders. I have had a lot of good faith with suppliers in this hobby and would be disapointed if that fell array due to hidden disputes outside any contract terms, stopping stock being supplied. 

If you had pre orders and cancel but still buy elsewhere due to lack of supply then the manufacturer would surely just reallocate if other retailers want to order extras?

 

There are some obvious reasons why supply could be stopped (if you look at the T&C's) however its the retailer that needs to keep customers informed as if the supplier did it they may be in a difficult position regardless of the reasons

[JSpencer]

If you had pre orders and cancel but still buy elsewhere due to lack of supply then the manufacturer would surely just reallocate if other retailers want to order extras?

 

There are some obvious reasons why supply could be stopped (if you look at the T&C's) however its the retailer that needs to keep customers informed as if the supplier did it they may be in a difficult position regardless of the reasons

 

The thing is though, there may be legal considerations whereby neither party can say anything. My point is, if such a dispute exists, it should not be affecting us until its agreed that they should put out a statement before taking such actions. In such a dispute, Bachmann can determine that they will cease/reduce supply effective from such and such a date if an agreement is not reached by such an such a date. With clear intentions of what will or will not be honoured.

 

We are of course assuming its a dispute and not a delayed container full of stock destined only for Hattons. However if the delayed delivery was due to such a container though, i suspect there would be no need for a shop to be silent. And they would quickly reassure customers that their stock is underway and due in on such an such date.

[dogbox321]

To be honest, I think the retailler should be given a little "slack" over this.  If its because a manufacturer is "upset" because of sale of the century/discounting limits, then surely this is in the modellers favour.

 

I'd actually argue, that the retailier has been very fair to the manufacturers and other traders, regarding maximum discounts in the "honeymoon period", as they have maintained the same discount price afterwards.  If they had not, then it would have fell flat on its face because most people would have waited the X weeks.  

 

Sale of the century, though is a very public discounting exercise, which basically implies that many products are not moving in sufficient quantities, at the prices manufacturers are expecting retailers to charge...it should be a wake up call to those in power to realise they can, no longer just keep increasing prices, without it having consequences on demand. 

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Oldddudders]

Sale of the century, though is a very public discounting exercise, which basically implies that many products are not moving in sufficient quantities, at the prices manufacturers are expecting retailers to charge...it should be a wake up call to those in power to realise they can, no longer just keep increasing prices, without it having consequences on demand. 

 

I’m sure we would all enjoy lower RRPs, further discounted by the retailer. But this forum, among others, is full of brave keyboard warriors tearing into manufacturers if or when they sub-optimise a model. Colour, the shape of the chimney, no daylight under the boiler, mechanism design - you name it, it has been vilified by someone. So the manufacturer goes the whole hog to get it right, employing the most knowledgable consultants to optimise the new product. And then people complain about the price.....

[Andy Hayter]

We can speculate all we wish, but I would suggest that it looks as if the problem might pre-date "sale of the century".  

 

I doubt we will be made party to the real nub of the problem, but as a Hattons customer I have to say that some information would have been appreciated over the radio silence - even if only to say there are delays in fulfilling your order.

[dogbox321]

I’m sure we would all enjoy lower RRPs, further discounted by the retailer. But this forum, among others, is full of brave keyboard warriors tearing into manufacturers if or when they sub-optimise a model. Colour, the shape of the chimney, no daylight under the boiler, mechanism design - you name it, it has been vilified by someone. So the manufacturer goes the whole hog to get it right, employing the most knowledgable consultants to optimise the new product. And then people complain about the price.....

 

.....Any company with a "marketing department" should understand the marketing mix (Product, Price, Place, Promotion).  Its not complaining about the price - its appreciating that pricing in this market, I would suggest has a large amount of elasticity, therefore as prices keep rising, people buy much less.  Plus of course there is a huge amount of competition from other manufacturers products, combined with rising costs of living, and this model market, which can at best be described as a non-essential outlay.

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Robin Brasher]

I am finding it difficult to find any trends in the model railway market. It looks like people are prepared to pay high prices for high quality items like Bachmann's Midland Pullman and H2 class and Hornby's Duchess and airsmoothed Merchant Navy but are not willing to pay high prices for Hornby's Railroad models. It is only since Hattons have offered huge discounts that Hattons have been able to sell models like R3170 Adderley Hall and R3491 Warship Benbow. Both these have been best sellers for about a week so they either must have a huge stock pile of these locomotives or their best sellers may amount to only a few models.

 

I think that demand for model railways has gone down over the last ten years and people who remember steam trains or diesels are either dying off or have not got enough money to buy model railways any more. Younger people do not seem to be interested in the present railways that are mainly multiple units for passenger trains and they have never seen steam engines in daily use on the national network so are not interested in modelling them.

 

To me it looks like model railways are mainly a buyer's market and shops like Hattons are having to discount heavily to get rid of their stock.

[royaloak]

I find it difficult to agree less with the above post.

[mdvle]

 

I think that demand for model railways has gone down over the last ten years and people who remember steam trains or diesels are either dying off or have not got enough money to buy model railways any more. Younger people do not seem to be interested in the present railways that are mainly multiple units for passenger trains and they have never seen steam engines in daily use on the national network so are not interested in modelling them.

 

 

Yet in that last same 10 years we have seen the number of companies offering product to the UK market grow significantly, to the point were in OO there have been 34 newly tooled items announced in the last 12 months.  Then consider the growth of OO9, 7mm and one can clearly see the hobby is anything but in decline.

 

The only segment of the market that has declined/disappeared is the "Christmas Trainset" kids who had a small set of track and trains and who, when reaching their teenage years "outgrew" toy trains and never come back.  These kids now get game consoles, iPads, etc.

 

But the main model railway market is still there, for all ages.  Those who are really interested in trains still have trains regardless of their age and things like YouTube do help to bring in middle aged people looking for a hobby now that the kids aren't taking up all of a parents time and money.

 

As for the youngsters, while there may be a bias towards the present railway there has always been a significant number attracted to steam or early diesel simply because its different or more visually interesting.  But even for those who do want to model the modern railway, electronics provide another way to bring interest to the hobby for them.

 

The biggest problem, not for the hobby, but for some manufacturers and retailers is they need to adjust to the fact that 2 companies no longer dominate the hobby, and as such with the hobby £ spread out over more models and companies they can't continue to produce as many models in a production run as they have in the past without ending up with unsold inventory as the customer moves on to the next new thing to come out.

[KDG]

Modern technologies have encouraged me back to the hobby. I gave it up years ago, sick of juddery locos, stock that constantly derailed, and models derided by the growing model press for lack of prototype fidelity. It had become an unenjoyable chore.

 

20 years on we have smooth running slow speed diesels that mostly look like they should, with lights, and sound if you want it, from the box, even on averagely laid set track. A vast choice of prototype rolling stock with seemingly new stuff every month. DCC controllers able to run more than one loco at a time.

 

Of course all this costs. Only the individual can decide if that is too much for them. Personal choice. I gave up buying fags about the same time as I started collecting and playing trains again. Win win.

 

Dare I say we've never had it so good?

 

In fact the hobby has rekindled my interest in, and encouraged me to learn more about these new technologies.

 

Hatton's have been there throughout offering the latest stuff. It's in the best interest of everyone, manufacturer, hobbyists and their business that this is resolved soonest.

Edited December 9, 2018 by KDG

[dogbox321]

I am finding it difficult to find any trends in the model railway market. It looks like people are prepared to pay high prices for high quality items like Bachmann's Midland Pullman and H2 class and Hornby's Duchess and airsmoothed Merchant Navy but are not willing to pay high prices for Hornby's Railroad models. It is only since Hattons have offered huge discounts that Hattons have been able to sell models like R3170 Adderley Hall and R3491 Warship Benbow. Both these have been best sellers for about a week so they either must have a huge stock pile of these locomotives or their best sellers may amount to only a few models.

 

I think that demand for model railways has gone down over the last ten years and people who remember steam trains or diesels are either dying off or have not got enough money to buy model railways any more. Younger people do not seem to be interested in the present railways that are mainly multiple units for passenger trains and they have never seen steam engines in daily use on the national network so are not interested in modelling them.

 

To me it looks like model railways are mainly a buyer's market and shops like Hattons are having to discount heavily to get rid of their stock.

 

Hi, pretty much agree.only thing would add is:

 

Para 1:  All new models tend to sell reasonably well on a first run, its pretty much standard product lifecycle, however with the likes of the Blue Pullman (second run), the Collectors Edition was available for as little as £420.  Duchess again new model, although Hornby only made a very small quantity.  Regarding best sellers - when you look at the amount of Atlas lorries etc., they were selling (I had 12 of one Stobart lorry for the containers, for a rake of IDA's!) - they must have had a good few Benbows et al to become a best seller  (but if my memory is correct - weren't they part of the big red box clearance they had the other year?).  

 

Para 2:  Demand has certainly gone down - many moons ago if a new loco was produced it flew off the shelves within a few weeks. Even many limited editions of circa 500 sit around now.  Likewise, if I weren't already into model railways - I'd never start now, as although we have great leaps in technology - like controlling trains with mobile phones, but price is a significant barrier to entry.  Its a personal choice, as to what the individual considers value.  On a good day - 6 coaches at £35 each = £210, plus a loco at £130-£140, and thats only one train.  On the flip side of this though - new start ups have entered the market, because of the high prices.

 

Para 3:  I would say that a good few main stream items would fall in this category, but ultimately its each product on its own merit.   Niche items produced in sensible quantities, at a reasonable price however, will always sell.  The problem being, usually when the second hand market price reaches a "peak", then someone decides to do another, and does a second one, which unless it has some exceptional features new features, never tend to sell as well.....Always remember the first Caledonian Sleeper pack with a First Class 90 - sold like mad, second release stuck!

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Jonboy]

Out of idle curiosity how does this lack of new stock tie into Hattons announcing it was selling its own brand commissions to other retailers fit date wise?

[Colin_McLeod]

 

The only segment of the market that has declined/disappeared is the "Christmas Trainset" kids who had a small set of track and trains and who, when reaching their teenage years "outgrew" toy trains and never come back. 

Well long term that will have the spin off advantage of no longer associating model railways with children's train sets.

 

Perhaps then, the "grown men playing with toy trains" slur will become a thing of the past.

[Ian Stewart]

I too as a regular in "The Hattons Arms" have had to drink elsewhere.

 

I ordered the recent YAA Brill wagon which was on my wishlist but had not arrived at Hattons.

(From Cheltenham Model Centre, good service. Ordered Wed, Posted confirmed Th. Delivered Fr. by Royal Mail). I like to resolve wishlist items.

 

Hattons are losing business. I know that people bought e.g. the Europhoenix 37 at Warley as others had it on their stall and Hattons didn't have it on their website, and rumours were circulating!

 

I think Hattons, or Hattons and Bachmann, should issue a statement clarifying the position "to calm the markets" as the business world would say. What they could say that wouldn't lead to feverish speculation I can't imagine. But I think loyal Hattons customers deserve consideration.

 

I also think RMweb could have performed a responsible press role and clarified the situation. I wouldn't have expected full business details, but at least an assessment of the point of dispute.

 

In the meantime let's hope that what I imagine may not be a simple issue is resolved. But will things return to normal?

 

Perhaps Hattons and Bachmann are negotiating a "Backstop Agreement"!

Oh no! I've mentioned Brexit again. But I think I got away with it.

 

Ian (aka Basil)

[Free At Last]

Perhaps loyal Hattons customers should stand behind Hattons and not move their business elsewhere and maybe try complaining to Bachmann over the hold up of their orders.