Hattons Model Railways of Widnes (formerly Liverpool).

[Coryton]

Now it looks like another player in the business that feels they are impacted by Hattons’ continuously expanding ambition is not being as passive about it as those retailers were. Bachmann have clauses written into their trading terms and conditions for a very good reason. Presumably Hattons signed up to these some time ago, maybe they have just out-grown them... maybe they are just testing them. You only find out where boundaries really are by pushing against them, until they push back. Dialogue ensues, it will be interesting to see where it leads.

 

Or maybe the goal-posts have shifted and the T&C's have changed?

[Vistisen]

Perhaps loyal Hattons customers should stand behind Hattons and not move their business elsewhere and maybe try complaining to Bachmann over the hold up of their orders.

This is one point of view. I on the other hand would be annoyed if I had a pre order with Hattons, and  they KNOW that they will not be able to full fill it but don't inform me: Thereby causing me to miss out as I waited in good faith only to find out too late to be able to buy a one from a limited production run elsewhere.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Vistisen

[girlinb]

I feel sorry for Hattons . There is an inference they are the bad guys here .Maybe they are or aren’t, I really don’t know . However I would have thought if you placed an order with Hattons and then they place an order with Bachmann then really Bachmann should fulfill these orders . Ok if there is a dispute refuse to accept any new orders , but surely not fulfilling existing orders is bad form, and inconveniencing the end user.

 

Given orders can be placed years in advance (its took 4 years or more for the Mk2F's to arrive) then your suggestion just wouldn't be viable and I'm sure you wouldn't do it yourself depending on the reason for stopping supply

[Chamby]

This is one point of view. I on the other hand would be annoyed if I had a pre order with Hattons, and  they KNOW that they will not be able to full fill it but don't inform me: Thereby causing me to miss out as I waited in good faith only to find out too late to be able to buy a one from a limited production run elsewhere.

I think you should assume that Hattons DON’T know when (or if) they will be able to fulfil your order. If the two parties are still in discussion, then obviously the outcome is not yet decided.

[Legend]

Given orders can be placed years in advance (its took 4 years or more for the Mk2F's to arrive) then your suggestion just wouldn't be viable and I'm sure you wouldn't do it yourself depending on the reason for stopping supply

Offer and acceptance . It’s dead easy to fulfill orders up to a certain date . Agree we don’t know the reason for non supply which kind of stops the discussion further . I’m sure both parties are hoping something can be sorted out but with unfulfilled orders I think someone needs to be making a statement soon . I haven’t bought anything from Bachmann for years but I’m interested because I’d be annoyed if this is about restricting discounts .

Edited December 10, 2018 by Legend

[mdvle]

 

Bachmann are probably not losing out because their stock will still sell through other retailers, it's difficult to gauge whether this is hurting Hattons.

 

The silence can also hurt Bachmann - the consumer won't care whether it is Hatton's fault, Bachmann's fault, or both if it ends up they don't get the model they want because both sides stayed silent while the model sold out everywhere else.

[royaloak]

You do realise there are other model railway retailers out there, Hattons isnt the only one!

[reevesthecat]

You do realise there are other model railway retailers out there, Hattons isnt the only one!

I suspect there are people out there who have used hattons for years and want to remain a loyal customer (although we know that there is no loyalty in business anymore) and are reluctant to cancel and move their orders. I suppose they want the decision making for them from a statement or something but if it was me I would move my order to avoid missing out.

[blueeighties]

Are you sure they always are. In the last few months I have bought 2 Farish Dutch seacows for £22 each and a Dapol/N Gauge Society Collett Full Brake for £23 - The seacows can fetch up to £40-50 and the Collett £40 easily, so I got these for about 50%

Yes, they always are. The only time you pick up 'reasonably' priced items is when they seem to have overlooked the value. There seems to be no logic to their pricing, looking at a range of Bachmann mk1 coaches for instance, identical vehicles range from £25 to nigh on £50. A lot of the time used stock prices are the same as, or higher than the same items brand new in stock. I have always found it baffling.

[woodenhead]

The silence can also hurt Bachmann - the consumer won't care whether it is Hatton's fault, Bachmann's fault, or both if it ends up they don't get the model they want because both sides stayed silent while the model sold out everywhere else.

If the model sells out, how does that hurt Bachmann?

[Mel_H]

I have given as much information as I feel it is appropriate to do so (and more than you will find anywhere else), even if I told you everything I think I know it wouldn't actually be of any use to you or anyone else - an assessment would only be an opinion and that's of even less use.

 

There are journalists out there writing for magazines - RMweb is only a chat/information distribution forum - and if they so wish, they could write a news story about the situation as it passes the 'tests'.

 

The facts are simple to establish, and it's an easy job.

 

Whether the magazines would want to publish, given that both Bachmann and Hattons are large advertising customers is another matter.

 

Given the time elapsed with this impasse, and how clear Bachmann's T&Cs are regarding 'competition' I'd be surprised if things will return to how they are.

 

There are a number of possible ways out, and examination of various areas shows this might be possible, although I doubt most would be acceptable to Bachmann, or indeed Hattons, as someone will have to give ground. There is a third way, but I can't see this being acceptable to Bachmann either. 

 

Most of mags will be going to press very soon (early for the Christmas printing shutdown) so if anyone's asked questions, we'll find out in three or so weeks.

 

Finally, we are all customers, and that means we can take our 'custom' elsewhere, as other posters have observed, if we are worried that items will sell out, before Hattons is able (if ever) to fulfil orders.

 

I do agree that given the time elapsed, Hattons really ought to have a better comms position than 'expected soon'

[73080]

Out of idle curiosity how does this lack of new stock tie into Hattons announcing it was selling its own brand commissions to other retailers fit date wise?

 

The  relevant timeline appears to be:

 

10 October - Hattons list receipt of Bachmann Mark 2F TSOs & RFBs, D3 'Skiddaw' and 37.688 'Kingmoor TMD' DRS livery (appears to be last listed delivery of new stock direct from Bachmann)

 

22 October - Hattons announce that they are offering Wholesale terms to other retailers for their own commissioned models

 

30 October - Hattons announce Sale of the Century.

 

Reading through Bachmann's t&c for supply of models, I can find no possible breach by Hattons' Sale of the Century that could not have been remedied quickly by Hattons, resulting in resumed supply of Bachmann models. 

 

Given that this apparent dispute appears to require 'discussions', it suggests it may be the offering of Wholesale terms that was the trigger.

 

The offering of Wholesale terms to other retailers (as compared with sharing around own commissioned models between a few retailers) suggests that from Bachmann's point of view, Hattons may have crossed a red line and will now be treated as a competing manufacturer.  If so, then that would definitely require 'discussions' for there to be any prospect of resupply of Bachmann models.

['CHARD]

 

 

The offering of Wholesale terms to other retailers (as compared with sharing around own commissioned models between a few retailers) suggests that from Bachmann's point of view, Hattons may have crossed a red line and will now be treated as a competing manufacturer.  If so, then that would definitely require 'discussions' for there to be any prospect of resupply of Bachmann models.

 

Errrrrrr, well Hattons IS a competing manufacturer 

[Mel_H]

Pop 

 

The  relevant timeline appears to be:

 

10 October - Hattons list receipt of Bachmann Mark 2F TSOs & RFBs, D3 'Skiddaw' and 37.688 'Kingmoor TMD' DRS livery (appears to be last listed delivery of new stock direct from Bachmann)

 

22 October - Hattons announce that they are offering Wholesale terms to other retailers for their own commissioned models

 

30 October - Hattons announce Sale of the Century.

 

Reading through Bachmann's t&c for supply of models, I can find no possible breach by Hattons' Sale of the Century that could not have been remedied quickly by Hattons, resulting in resumed supply of Bachmann models. 

 

Given that this apparent dispute appears to require 'discussions', it suggests it may be the offering of Wholesale terms that was the trigger.

 

The offering of Wholesale terms to other retailers (as compared with sharing around own commissioned models between a few retailers) suggests that from Bachmann's point of view, Hattons may have crossed a red line and will now be treated as a competing manufacturer.  If so, then that would definitely require 'discussions' for there to be any prospect of resupply of Bachmann models.

Pop into the timeline the Hattons Class 66 announcements - almost certainly part of the issue - and that might add further flavour...

Edited December 11, 2018 by Mel_H

['CHARD]

Pop

 

Pop into the timeline the Hattons Class 66 announcements - almost certainly part of the issue - and that might add further flavour...

 

'POP!!!' indeed!

 

The Ts + Cs are explicit, although - it must be pointed out - this is all supposition, of course!

 

Despite the impact it's obviously had, and having, I think it's hard not to feel some (a lot of) sympathy for the blue team, in the circumstances.  These terms are signed up to for a very good reason, and if there's a substantive breach, then expect consequences.  This is business, and the two parties aren't playing at it - this is their lifeblood, not a hobby. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by 'CHARD

[Chamby]

Pop 

 

 

Pop into the timeline the Hattons Class 66 announcements - almost certainly part of the issue - and that might add further flavour...

Hornby have a Class 66 too, don’t forget, but for now they seem to be still supplying Hattons.

[woodenhead]

Hornby have a Class 66 too, don’t forget, but for now they seem to be still supplying Hattons.

Not quite the same - it's a RailRoad model but Hornby have referenced third party threats in their latest financial statement.

 

Bachmann also have seen competition from SLW, Accurascale plus their factory relocation issues so not surprising if they are reacting.

[amdaley]

Not quite the same - it's a RailRoad model but Hornby have referenced third party threats in their latest financial statement.

 

Bachmann also have seen competition from SLW, Accurascale plus their factory relocation issues so not surprising if they are reacting.

 

I think Hornby would use any excuse at this stage 

Third party threats have always been there for every manufacturer.

[mdvle]

If the model sells out, how does that hurt Bachmann?

 

It hurts Bachmann in a more subtle, and more future way.  It damages the brand - the customer ordered Bachmann product through an authorized Bachmann retailer and Bachmann then refused to provide said retailer with the product, depriving the customer from the ability to purchase the item.

 

Said customer then not only complains about Hattons, but also about Bachmann to all their friends/family.  In the future, second thoughts are had about ordering Bachmann announcements as "why order what Bachmann won't supply".

 

At the end of the day the customer doesn't care who is at fault, because the the longer both stay quiet the longer they both become at fault by depriving the customer the ability to make an informed decision, particularly those customers who aren't connected to the online rumour mills and thus have the ability to make alternate arrangements "just in case"

[woodenhead]

It hurts Bachmann in a more subtle, and more future way.  It damages the brand - the customer ordered Bachmann product through an authorized Bachmann retailer and Bachmann then refused to provide said retailer with the product, depriving the customer from the ability to purchase the item.

 

Said customer then not only complains about Hattons, but also about Bachmann to all their friends/family.  In the future, second thoughts are had about ordering Bachmann announcements as "why order what Bachmann won't supply".

 

At the end of the day the customer doesn't care who is at fault, because the the longer both stay quiet the longer they both become at fault by depriving the customer the ability to make an informed decision, particularly those customers who aren't connected to the online rumour mills and thus have the ability to make alternate arrangements "just in case"

We all know what the issue is and it's pretty obvious, no harm is being done to the Bachmann brand here and people are still going to purchase their products for the same price elsewhere.

 

This isn't like when Hornby under delivered product and pre-orders were not fulfilled leaving customers high and dry.

[Ian Hargrave]

It hurts Bachmann in a more subtle, and more future way.  It damages the brand - the customer ordered Bachmann product through an authorized Bachmann retailer and Bachmann then refused to provide said retailer with the product, depriving the customer from the ability to purchase the item.

 

Said customer then not only complains about Hattons, but also about Bachmann to all their friends/family.  In the future, second thoughts are had about ordering Bachmann announcements as "why order what Bachmann won't supply".

 

At the end of the day the customer doesn't care who is at fault, because the the longer both stay quiet the longer they both become at fault by depriving the customer the ability to make an informed decision, particularly those customers who aren't connected to the online rumour mills and thus have the ability to make alternate arrangements "just in case"

Sorry that’s fanciful by a country mile.We have I think two other prominent retailers who commission Bachmann on an ongoing basis.No such lack of faith here,I can assure you.Bachmann have always historically had a good working relationship with the retail trade.Many on this forum constantly bemoan all manufacturers of whatever ilk.....but they still buy the product at the end of the day from whomsoever they can get what they consider a good deal.

 

On this occasion if you preordered or are dependent upon Hattons slick logistics as our overseas members are,then most regrettably you have been disadvantaged.UK residents fortunately have alternative sources.One consideration needs all our attention and that is a

trend of preordering all but certain specifically sourced models such as retailers commissions.i.e those you know you won’t get unless you do sign on the bottom line.

 

As has been posted already,there have been shortfalls in supply before and Hattons and others have fallen foul of it.

 

To repeat once more.Bachmann look after their customers and make reparation when things go wrong.as they sometimes do.

[Stevelewis]

My peronal  way  of  purchasing  new  releases  is  to  wait  until  the  item  is  avaiable  and  then  buy it!

 

Many retailers  send  email info these days  when deliveries are  received  ,

 

I have never  preordered  anything  over  many  years  of  buying  model railways  and  have  never 'missed out' on anything 

[Robin Brasher]

I missed out on the Hornby pull-push sets in a big way by not pre-ordering. I saw one at Morris at Lancing so I thought I would wait until I got back to Swanage to buy one there to support the Railway. The Swanage Station shop had not received any and they had sold out at Hattons. It was about 18 months before I got one and they were 'must have' models for my Swanage layout. I think Hornby had only produced 1,000 whereas about 2,000 people wanted them. Subsequently I have pre-ordered models from Hattons and Rails but I only needed to for the SECR C class. I got caught up badly in the Hattons price guarantee saga and ended up having to pay a lot more than expected for the LBSR E4 which is now in Hattons' sale of the century and a number of other items. I stopped dealing with Hattons for about a year after that as I had been a loyal customer since the 1960s and I was disappointed with their service.

 

Usually the supply exceeds demand but if it is a 'must have' model I think it is still worth pre-ordering the model. I did well with the SECR C class for about £60 and with Sandringham for about the same amount.

[Robin Brasher]

I am surprised that Hattons is offering Bachmann's 31-921 H2 Atlantic for £139 in Hattons' 12 deals of Christmas. I thought Hattons had sold out of its pre-order for this model.

 

I don't know why Hattons needs to discount this model as my nearest model railway shop has sold out of this model at the full price and it has only been out for a few weeks.

 

It looks like they have had a fresh supply of this model from Bachmann.

[meatloaf]

I am surprised that Hattons is offering Bachmann's 31-921 H2 Atlantic for £139 in Hattons' 12 deals of Christmas. I thought Hattons had sold out of its pre-order for this model.

 

I don't know why Hattons needs to discount this model as my nearest model railway shop has sold out of this model at the full price and it has only been out for a few weeks.

 

It looks like they have had a fresh supply of this model from Bachmann.

 

Could have come from olivias