LMS Corridor push pull sets

[superkev]

Hi

I am wanting to build a 3 car corridor push pull set as ran latterly on the KWVR after corridor gangwayed coaches were introduced to allow the guard to sell tickets.

The very helpful man at Sidelines has suggested two dgm D1905 converted corridor brakes with a D1999 open third between.

This looks right apart from the window openors o the driving trailers which are much smaller than the centre car.

Any more pics Any help with some numbers would be appreciated.

 

Picture attached (Courtesy and copyright KWVR)- Note the LMS underframes and detail as well as the differing window openers and what looks like a pair of side mouldings.

 

Thanks in advance

Kev

[superkev]

Thanks to very helpfull Malcom at Sidelines who had made the correct sides specially (SIX star service) the coaches appear to be a D1999 sandwiched beween 2 D1851 compartmet brakes converted to driving trailers. I dont think very many conversions were done

Any more pics Any help with some numbers would be appreciated

Kev

[Barry O]

Kev

 

invest in a copy of LMS coaches by Jenkinson and Essery as they will have the answers.

[superkev]

I did inverst in a copy earlier but noit realising they were corridor stock I bought the wrong one. Saving/ looking for another one.

Kev

[Joseph_Pestell]

Kev

 

invest in a copy of LMS coaches by Jenkinson and Essery as they will have the answers.

 

I don't recall seeing those mentioned in the book. I will have a look later.

 

Do we know the date of the photo? I would guess that they are quite a late BR conversion like the SR Maunsell push-pull sets.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Is it just me? Pattern of roof vents on the third vehicle does not look the same as on leading vehicle.

[Leander]

Is it just me? Pattern of roof vents on the third vehicle does not look the same as on leading vehicle.

 

It's just the other way round isn't it, with the van end leading i.e. next to the loco? The end of the roof with the three pairs of vents is over the guards accommodation/van space.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's just the other way round isn't it, with the van end leading i.e. next to the loco? The end of the roof with the three pairs of vents is over the guards accommodation/van space.

 

I allowed for the fact that it would be the other way round. But it still does not look the same to me. Could just be old eyesight or poor screen res,

[Barry O]

Page 143 of Jenkinson and Essery E LMS Coaches:

BTK D1851 Torpedo vents 5476/5491/ 5496 -converted and renumbered to 3497-3499 which looks very like the leading vehicle in the three car set -the one at the other end could well be a non driving fitted BTK so could be different especially as the roof vents don't appear to be the same.

 

TO D1692 period I stock - so this isn't the one on the middle of the photo UNLESS during the modifications they were resided - not sure that would be done as no Diagram has been found for this

 

TO D1807- period II stock - so they aren't the ones in the photo - 8723 - 3484, 8748 - 3485, 8865 - 3486 UNLESS during the modifications they were resided - not sure that would be done as no Diagram has been found for this

 

so the TO in the middle is none of the above - and the roof vents look very like a D1999 vehicle ( plate 152 pg 127) - but this may have been a BR conversion to replace the much older TO's no info is in the Book

[superkev]

Page 143 of Jenkinson and Essery E LMS Coaches:

BTK D1851 Torpedo vents 5476/5491/ 5496 -converted and renumbered to 3497-3499 which looks very like the leading vehicle in the three car set -the one at the other end could well be a non driving fitted BTK so could be different especially as the roof vents don't appear to be the same.

 

TO D1692 period I stock - so this isn't the one on the middle of the photo UNLESS during the modifications they were resided - not sure that would be done as no Diagram has been found for this

 

TO D1807- period II stock - so they aren't the ones in the photo - 8723 - 3484, 8748 - 3485, 8865 - 3486 UNLESS during the modifications they were resided - not sure that would be done as no Diagram has been found for this

 

so the TO in the middle is none of the above - and the roof vents look very like a D1999 vehicle ( plate 152 pg 127) - but this may have been a BR conversion to replace the much older TO's no info is in the Book

 

Thanks and thanks for the D1851 numbers

Ive seen a picture somewhere of what looks like the other end of this set at Oxenhope and it had a driving trailer adjacent to the loco.

I think im settled on so far a D1999 (Number????) sandwiched beween two D1851 BTK (Numbers 3497/8) compartment brakes converted to driving trailers.

Apparently the D1999 has two toilets both at the same end which matches the vents in the picture.

Kev

[Barry O]

I wouldn't be certain that they would have a driver trailer at each end especially as only 3 seem to have been converted - a waste of a driver trailer as you always have an engine at one end.

[coachmann]

I can find no details of an ex-LMS Stanier D1999 open second being converted to push & pull use, but as the centre coach is almost certainly one from this diagram I assume it was a late conversion in BR days. The coach behind the engine as definitely a Stanier design corridor brake second because of its off-set roof vents. Quite why the 3-coach set had a driving trailer brake at each end is weard but not altogether unusual. The final days of the Delph service saw two driving trailers coupled to make a set in 1955.

[Jub45565]

LMS Journal no 12 is what you need for this!  This is a set that I have been in the very slow process of modelling for quite some time...

 

The set in the photo in this thread is D1851 BTK/D1999 TO/D1851 BTK

 

They also used a period 2 D1807 TO on the branch, and to quote the said article . "The D1915 conversion, which was undertaken at the same time as that of the D1999 vehicle, could also have been undertaken for use on the same service although I have not seen any evidence of its use there".  He also had not seen any photos of the D1692 conversions.

 

edited to replace TK reference with TO!

[Jub45565]

Coachman mentioned dates, which were the following for gangwayed stock:

D1851 BTK x 3 - 1954 - no 3497-3499

D1692 TO x 4 - 1938 - no 3462-3465

D1807 TO x 3 - 1951 - no 3484-3486

D1915 TO x 1 1956 - no 9406

D1999 TO x 1 1956 - no 3482

 

edited to add running numbers as queried earlier in the topic.

 

The LMS journal is definitely worth getting a copy of.

[coachmann]

The push pull conversions from D1692 2-window open third stock were interesting in being converted to centre-entrance and given luggage doors at one end LNWR fashion. Close up shots of these vehices would be handy. I assume they were given standard LMS driving ends but the middle door style is a mystery.

[bluebottle]

“Steam in the West Riding” (J.S. Whiteley and G.W. Morrison; David & Charles) has a photograph of presumably the same set (definitely driving trailer each end) as in the OP picture, being pulled out of Keighley by Ivatt 2-6-2T No.41325 in September 1959.

 

Gordon

[superkev]

Hi all
Many thanks for nfo and numbers.

I will number the 2 D1851 BTK 3497and 3498 and the D1999 intermediate coach 1956

 

I attach a picture of one of the 2 trailers I have constructed.. Ever helpfulll Malcolm Binns of Sidelines had made me up a D1999 kit which I have just started.
 

Not decieded about the painting a I hate painting/ lining so I may bite the bullett and pay someone.

 

Isnt the internet wonderfull

Thanks again

 

 

kev

 

 

 

[coachmann]

Well impressed Kev and exhibiting the kind of small detail that makes 7mm scale so worthwhile.

[Jub45565]

The push pull conversions from D1692 2-window open third stock were interesting in being converted to centre-entrance and given luggage doors at one end LNWR fashion. Close up shots of these vehices would be handy. I assume they were given standard LMS driving ends but the middle door style is a mystery.

 

I havn't seen a photo of these either - just the D1851, D1999, D1807 and possibly the D1915 but it is difficult to tell - it is in a 2 coach rake at Oakworth in a pretty much end on photo.  Most photos are either of Ivatt 2 41273 or 41325 (the latter would have had a different cab being from the later build IIRC) but I have also seen them with a Standard 2.  I dont recall seeing any photos of the gangwayed push pull set with a Midland 0-4-4.  The Stanier 0-4-4s were borrowed for a couple of weeks in the early 1950s, but again I don't think they went back once the push pull set was in action.

 

I have also seen a photo, taken after dieselisation to the 108 DMUs, of an Ivatt tank with one LMS PIII none gangwayed driving trailer and an ex LNER driving trailer - apparently rushed into service with the odd DMU failure. The photo I have shows this set in the bay at Keighley so doing a Bradford run rather than a Worth Valley run, but I believe the worth valley set did several Bradford runs in between to occupy itself.

 

The D1692 conversions had puzzled me as they were the only gangwayed vehicles at that time - for some reason I was working on the later premise of the D1915 & D1999 so it hadnt crossed my mind that these could/would have been converted into driving trailers themselves...

[coachmann]

For anyone interested in building a Stanier Push & pull conversion, this is a standard D1851 built using Comet sides and Dapol roof and interior on my underframe. A driving trailer would simply have the the guards end replaced with a 3-window end, plus of course an extra window would need to be cut where the ducket is. The Dapol parts come in a CKD kit and save a bit of trouble....

 

[Jub45565]

I have a couple under way, both with Bill Bedford sides - one on a Bill Bedford chassis with Bill bedford end, comet DVT end and 247 roof section, the other is being built around a Hornby donor with replacement 247 end.  This thread has encouraged me to crack them back out and get on with them!

 

Apparently, as Geof at Comet readily admits, their sides are slightly wrong in that they have the window in the double door furthest from the brake end on both sides, while they should both be in the left hand of the pair of doors. Lovely model here though Coach.

 

The Dapol parts come in a CKD kit and save a bit of trouble....

 

CKD?

 

Is it possible to procure these items separately from Dapol?  I have been thinking for a while that their roofs could be very handy elsewhere.

[Jub45565]

Larry,

I have just been perusing the LMS journal index, and no. 22 does include:

D1692 COACHES FOR MOTOR TRAIN USE by Phil Tattershall

 

Unfortunately I don't have this so can't say whether it includes any useful photos.

 

One thing I have been wondering, as Phil did ask a couple of questions in the article I previously mentioned in no 12, is as to whether there had been any useful letters/follow ups in issue 13

[coachmann]

Apparently, as Geof at Comet readily admits, their sides are slightly wrong in that they have the window in the double door furthest from the brake end on both sides, while they should both be in the left hand of the pair of doors. Lovely model here though Coach.

 

 

CKD?

 

Is it possible to procure these items separately from Dapol?  I have been thinking for a while that their roofs could be very handy elsewhere.

I cannot understand why firms continue to market sides that are known by them to be incorrect. I didn't spot the window was in the wrong door or that the luggage doors are 2' 6" wide until I came to weather the coach.

 

Stanier initially continued with 2' luggage doors as on Period I and II stock and didn't introduce 2' 6" luggage doors until the D1905 brake third.

 

Dapol sell their coaches as kits for around a tenner. I did ask about buying roofs minus holes but got no response.

[artisan100]

Larry,

 

As you know, I don't claim to have the same knowledge or expertise on LMS coaches as you (or a good many other subjects!). I was told about the window in the one pair of luggage doors about two years ago and added a revised drawing for D1851 to my 'to do' list. At the time that was the only error on that pair of sides I was aware of, and so when I had the opportunity to fit a it onto a test etch sheet about a year ago I amended the window position but not the door width. The test etch was produced last year and as far as I was aware at the time it was correct, but it hasn't yet made it onto a full tool and into production. If I need to reduce the door width to 8mm that is easily done, and I would be happy to send you a pair of the new sides FOC if you can confirm the changes that are needed.

 

We have seen many times on RMWeb that there are a lot of people out there who have a lot of expertise. Personally I spend so much time packing brass and whitemetal components and folding instructions and then stuffing them all into plastic bags and all the other jobs involved with running a small business that there isn't much time left for carrying out research, and so I am always very grateful for information that is given to me and would welcome feedback on any errors that have crept into Comet Models products.

 

Geoff Brewin

Comet Models

[Rowsley17D]

_{Good for you Geoff, it's always good to see that errors can be corrected. Great customer service.}

 

_{Is there any chance that an etch mark can be made on the door lines of coaches to indicate where the bottom door hinge should go? Like Larry I like to include the bottom hinge as it makes the coaches even better looking, but struggle to get them in a straight line particularly on suburbans with their many doors. I drill a hole and solder a short piece of wire through, which is squashed with a pair of pliers.}