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Hornby restaurant coaches?


darren01
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OK I have my R4816 now in hand and have located my HMRS Sheet 10 with enough small shaded "SOUTHERN" s to re-letter. But does anyone know of a picture of a Malachite 1947 7861 so I can correctly place the lettering.  I have checked my Gould Illustrated Southern Coaches, John Scott-Morgan's Atlantic Coast Express, and every page of this forum and have not yet found a representation of the Malachite Southern livery version.  And was the car lettered Restaurant Car?

 

If you know of a picture, please post the picture or provide the reference so I can re-livery with confidence and have some assurance and peace of mind that will not incur the wrath of the MEN IN MALACHITE.....

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And, hey - it's August! Perhaps they do not have their full complement of experienced staff?

 

What do people expect of shops these days?

Yep, we should consider ourselves lucky these things aren't coming from Italy where ( virtually ) the whole country shuts down in August ...........

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Yep, we should consider ourselves lucky these things aren't coming from Italy where ( virtually ) the whole country shuts down in August ...........

Ditto parts of France. Visitors to Le Mans (pop ca 200k) are a bit puzzled to find some restaurants closed this month, when, race week (June) apart, there are the most tourists.

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A little late to the party, but it finally arrived and I love it!!!

 

Also a video on my Twitter of it in an 8 carriage train behind my Merchant Navy =)

 

Now I just hope the new open third is in matching unlined green =)

 

That’s a nice selection of Southern stock. I had talked myself out of getting one but I’m wavering again.

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A little late to the party, but it finally arrived and I love it!!!

 

attachicon.gif20180811_195744.jpg

 

attachicon.gif20180811_195714.jpg

 

attachicon.gif20180811_195623.jpg

 

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Also a video on my Twitter of it in an 8 carriage train behind my Merchant Navy =)

 

https://twitter.com/GreenGiraffe22/status/1028353849701146624?s=19

 

Now I just hope the new open third is in matching unlined green =)

 

No wonder one of the first things Bulleid wanted to do upon taking over as Southern CME was to ditch Olive!

 

Sorry, but unless seen in very strong light (be it on a model or a full sized coach) plain olive looks exceptionally dull and depressing! (much like some of the more recent TOC liveries - yes I'm looking at you SWR and to a lesser extent GWR). The yellow lining is what lifts it and makes olive 'work' as a base colour in my view

 

Yes I accept some Maunsell mainline stock did come  out in unlined Olive towards the end of the 1930s, but I would wager it was very much in the minority (as in only stuff that needed a full repaint rather than a touch up and re-varnish)

 

I sincerely hope Hornby understand this and not withstanding their previous statements about the tooling, they find a way of putting lining in a future restaurant car rather than 'dumbing down' their forthcoming open 3rd.

Edited by phil-b259
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... I like the unlined olive.... Also @ No Decorum thanks! Hornby Magazine once described it as a 'festival of Southern' it is loosely East Sussex 1943/4 with a dosage of rule 1.

 

Edit : representing a carriage in its later life isn't 'dumbing down', it is including modellers who model a later era.

Edited by GreenGiraffe22
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OK I have my R4816 now in hand and have located my HMRS Sheet 10 with enough small shaded "SOUTHERN" s to re-letter. But does anyone know of a picture of a Malachite 1947 7861 so I can correctly place the lettering.  I have checked my Gould Illustrated Southern Coaches, John Scott-Morgan's Atlantic Coast Express, and every page of this forum and have not yet found a representation of the Malachite Southern livery version.  And was the car lettered Restaurant Car?

 

If you know of a picture, please post the picture or provide the reference so I can re-livery with confidence and have some assurance and peace of mind that will not incur the wrath of the MEN IN MALACHITE.....

 

There is a photo of the kitchen side of 7866 in malachite in June 1951 in Mike King's 'An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches'. It is on p93, under the one of 7869 in olive. 7866 has been re-lettered with a 'S' prefix to the SR numbers, but the numbers have been repositioned to accommodate the 'S'. It is lettered 'Restaurant Car' in SR style but the lettering is centralised beneath the fourth saloon window and the small frosted window of the pantry (on that side). Where the lettering may be on the corridor side, I do not know.

 

We can be fairly confident that your car should be lettered (somewhere) 'Restaurant Car' and that the numbers at the saloon end should be in the same position as on the Hornby olive version. Other than that ......

 

Regards,

Martin

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There is a photo of the kitchen side of 7866 in malachite in June 1951 in Mike King's 'An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches'. It is on p93, under the one of 7869 in olive. 7866 has been re-lettered with a 'S' prefix to the SR numbers, but the numbers have been repositioned to accommodate the 'S'. It is lettered 'Restaurant Car' in SR style but the lettering is centralised beneath the fourth saloon window and the small frosted window of the pantry (on that side). Where the lettering may be on the corridor side, I do not know.

 

We can be fairly confident that your car should be lettered (somewhere) 'Restaurant Car' and that the numbers at the saloon end should be in the same position as on the Hornby olive version. Other than that ......

 

Regards,

Martin

 

 Seems like an odd place for it to be, as for both the BR and Olive green versions the lettering is below the third window in the dining section. I haven't looked at my version of 'An illustrated history - nor am I arguing, because I believe you! Just seems to be out of kilter when you compare it to the earlier and later versions 

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 Seems like an odd place for it to be, as for both the BR and Olive green versions the lettering is below the third window in the dining section. I haven't looked at my version of 'An illustrated history - nor am I arguing, because I believe you! Just seems to be out of kilter when you compare it to the earlier and later versions 

 

Yes indeed. My personal opinion (based on around 30 years in the railway industry witnessing how instructions can be misinterpreted!) is that the vehicle in the photo may be a one-off. It is possible that the painters, having been instructed to repaint the new S-prefixed numbers, centralising them, did the same with the 'Restaurant Car" lettering, centralising it as far as practicable on the bodyside. I must stress that this is my opinion only.

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When I was pre-painting my Ian Kirk kit, I worked from the only photos I had access to, in Mike King's book. This is the result:

 

43118706955_b26c0af668_b.jpg

IMAG0772 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

 

 

I cannot vouch for the accuracy for the particular coach number I chose, but it does match at least one coach!

 

One thing I notice about the Southern olive version after seeing the 1s on the end doors of yours, is that no where on the exterior of the carriage does it say what class of seating it is (it's all first class, right?)

 

I thought it looked like it was missing something but presumably that's how the prototype was?

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When I was pre-painting my Ian Kirk kit, I worked from the only photos I had access to, in Mike King's book. This is the result:

 

43118706955_b26c0af668_b.jpg

IMAG0772 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

 

 

I cannot vouch for the accuracy for the particular coach number I chose, but it does match at least one coach!

 

One coach? The top image looks like S7943S and the lower one S7942S. Presumably just an effect of the blurring...

 

Anyway more interesting is that all the seats appear to be non-smoking. Not what I would have expected for the period.

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No wonder one of the first things Bulleid wanted to do upon taking over as Southern CME was to ditch Olive!

 

Sorry, but unless seen in very strong light (be it on a model or a full sized coach) plain olive looks exceptionally dull and depressing! (much like some of the more recent TOC liveries - yes I'm looking at you SWR and to a lesser extent GWR). The yellow lining is what lifts it and makes olive 'work' as a base colour in my view

 

Yes I accept some Maunsell mainline stock did come  out in unlined Olive towards the end of the 1930s, but I would wager it was very much in the minority (as in only stuff that needed a full repaint rather than a touch up and re-varnish)

 

I sincerely hope Hornby understand this and not withstanding their previous statements about the tooling, they find a way of putting lining in a future restaurant car rather than 'dumbing down' their forthcoming open 3rd.

My livery preferences are:

1) BR Southern Region green.

2) Southern lined olive green.

3) BR crimson and cream.

4) Southern malachite green.

5) Southern unlined olive green.

 

I think malachite green is too bright a shade although it did weather to a similar shade to BR Southern Region green.

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I am pleased to see people are still building coach kits. With the supply of excellent ready to run stock I have neglected this area of modelling.

 

My BR restaurant car received some rough handling by Royal Mail but the coach inside was unharmed. The BR version is not a perfect match for my other Hornby BR southern region coaches as the roof and body are a slightly darker shade but it matches my stock better than the Southern versions.

 

The doors are slightly recessed to keep the width down to 9'. On the BR version the handles for the kitchen compartment are black whereas the other door has brass handles. I like the frosted glass on some of the kitchen windows which reminds me of the frosted glass on the KItmaster coach toilet windows.

 

The flush glazed windows and table lamps remind me of the tinplate Hornby-Dublo restaurant cars with their advertisement showing you could almost walk inside and sit at the table. I have noticed that the southern region coach has first class on the door and the windows whereas the Maunsell version does not both on the Hornby model and in Mike King's book.

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Looking nice!

Lets hope the Bluebell can get their 12" scale version up and running, or st least ake a start by the end of the next decade

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/7864.html

I remember when it was a static catering vehicle at Sheffield Park Station. It is sad that coaches can deteriorate very quickly even on preserved railways

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I remember when it was a static catering vehicle at Sheffield Park Station. It is sad that coaches can deteriorate very quickly even on preserved railways

Very true, although I understand it has risen in the priority rankings and awaits a slot in the works, It has to be said those guys who restore these coaches are awesome and the work they turn out is an art form in itself. I can't wait to see it restored, not least as its the sole remaining one.

 

The one it was coupled to is due to be moved into the new shed soon.

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html

 

Restoring that would give a 5 coach rake of Maunsell coaches and would look amazing.

Edited by The Evil Bus Driver
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The notes on those links say it was used on Bournemouth to Newcastle services...

 

Does that mean SR Green stock was used throughout to Newcastle, how common was this ?

(Am showing my lack of age here).

Edited by adb968008
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The notes on those links say it was used on Bournemouth to Newcastle services...

 

Does that mean SR Green stock was used throughout to Newcastle, how common was this ?

(Am showing my lack of age here).

Yes, the Bournemouth-York-Newcastle was ER stock one day; SR the next.  It was Maunsell set 459 for some years until replaced by BR Mark 1 set 880 but with Maunsell catering cars. It was on this working that Maunsell RCO No. 7844 was written off following a collision at Sheffield Victoria in 1954.

 

Chris KT

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... I like the unlined olive.... Also @ No Decorum thanks! Hornby Magazine once described it as a 'festival of Southern' it is loosely East Sussex 1943/4 with a dosage of rule 1.

 

 

And I don't, So lets agree to disagree in this matter shall we?

 

Naturally you are free to run what you like on your layout and express your views / preferances as I have done.

 

 

Edit : representing a carriage in its later life isn't 'dumbing down', it is including modellers who model a later era.

 

Sorry, simply spraying an area with a single base colour - be it a model railway carriage, a military aircraft, a real train or a wall is very quick and easy compared to having to then having apply some fine lining with a Tampo machine, apply lots of camouflage swirls, add complicated patterns etc.

 

As such a plain olive Maunsell coach IS dumbed down compared to the fully lined out version by the virtue if it being easier for the manufacturer to produce. The fact the real thing received a dumbed down livery in 1938 or whenever (for much the same reasons I hasten to add - i.e. cost) doesn't make much difference to that specific point about the livery being a cop out.

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Did someone mention set 459? Seen here Southbound, approaching Leicester South box. You will have to take my word for it that the Composite dining saloon and Kitchen Buffet are fourth and fifth in the formation.

The dining carriages stand out a bit more prominently in set 880, again coming south.

 

Photo's courtesy of Chris Nevard / Model rail and Derek Shore.

 

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