DapolDave Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi everyone, Just a quick update with a couple of cad/cams to show progress on these milk tanks from the cad/cam posted in the catalogue. cheers Dave 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Brinkly Posted October 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2012 Very nice Dave. Just out of interest what prototype do they represent? And any chance of scaling down to 4mm? Regards, Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi everyone, Just a quick update with a couple of cad/cams to show progress on these milk tanks from the cad/cam posted in the catalogue. cheers Dave Dave Looks nice, but there is no plating over the frame at the headstock ends. - the open ness is easier seen on the 2 thou gallon tank wagon http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmilktanks/e65238e9 but the other photos in this collection show that the 3 thou also had the framing exposed. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi Paul, i totally agree with you, and i dont know why, for the life of me, they have done that, as its not on the first shot i have here. :-( cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Looking forward to seeing the end result I'm so glad that folk like Paul B went round photographing all the wagons and details he did - we can't thank you enough sir! 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 It would be nice if Dapol were to also produce these in 00 gauge. As it stands, no-one makes an accurate RTR milk tanker. The ex-GWR ones by Dapol and Hornby both have a number of faults and ommisions. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warspite Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I'm also looking forward to these - great to see the variations in the two cad/cams so we will be able to 'mix and match' different types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 It would be nice if Dapol were to also produce these in 00 gauge. As it stands, no-one makes an accurate RTR milk tanker. The ex-GWR ones by Dapol and Hornby both have a number of faults and ommisions. It's a shame that there are no accuarate RTR milk tanks avaliable but there are perhaps reasons for this byond manufacturers simply getting things wrong. There are so many different variations to contend with particularly with regard to GWR and WR ones. The LMS and SR were more consistent but even still there were differences. Swindon issued 24 diagrams for 6 wheel milk tanks and they did this for a reason, they were all different! On top of this there were the Ro-Rail tank trailers and early 4 wheeled tanks that were converted to six wheel. There were two very different types of brakegear, twin tanks, twin compartment tanks, some that were a foot longer than others, different ladder arrangements, a myriad of tanks supports, platforms at the end, platforms in the middle, lots of different valve arrangements on top of the tank.... Which one do you go for? Most of the diagrams were dairy specific so it's not a case of pick one and you can paint it a load of different colours, well not if you want to be accurate. The LMS ones are the more obvious candidates which is perhaps why Dapol have gone for this. I have a long standing ambition to have a model of the Whitland to Kensington as running in the mid 60s and I think I could have legitimately have 20 milk tanks belonging to the various dairies serving South Wales and all of them could be different! Whilst there are no accurate 4mm RTR models David Geen makes a quite lovely kit for the LMS Dia.1994 and GWR Dean-Churchward braked types. This is one of the GWR type I've finished to Dia. O.42 in P4 with some mods along the way: There are some things that you might want to have a look at Dave: As Paul Bartlett has already said the underframe is an issue as it's so open but you already know about that and I saw that it was different on the original CADs you posted on another thread. Brake levers. I'm not sure the LMS ones used lifting links at all. They had simple levers on both sides acting off the same cross shaft which was closer to the outer axle. Tank supports: The larger of the two types looks to slope inwards too much. Most of the larger type that I've seen on LMS tanks have the sides more vertical and are more rectangular in overall shape. More like on my David Geen LMS kit which also illustrates the point made earlier by Paul Bartlett about the underframe and also shows the brake cross shaft: Spring hanger brackets: The LMS ones had longer brackets on the centre axle. See here for a good illustration. No idea why. Hope that's of some help. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenwall Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 As a matter of interest, is there any further news (or pics) of the colour/date of the livery versions for the milk tankers, and given the alternative tooling implied above, which is which version? So far we have 000 - United Dairies 001 - Express Dairies Blue?? 002 - CWS (Red) 003 - Milk Marketing Blue?? BR era?? 004 - United Creameries Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Hi All Well! here we are, over 2 years later, with still no real idea what prototype these milk tanks are supposed to represent and with so many errors it is difficult to even guess what was the intended victim. The latest prepro shows a design with even more anomalies than the later CADS. One can only assume at this stage that Dapol are not intending to make an accurate model of anything but just want a freelance cash-cow to issue in every livery they can find. No doubt this will be supplemented by large numbers of short run specials with totally fictitious liveries just like their freelance O gauge 5 plank open and 4mm milk tanks. With RW running the design department one might have assumed an accurate GW version would have been likely, especially with the claims that under his leadership there will be no seriously innaccurate models from now on. As the model currently stands the tank stays and stanchions are LMS, the basic underframe, springs and hangers and tie strip are GWR but the axleboxes are LMS, of a sort. The tank cradle seems to be freelance and the buffers are the totally incorrect short 4 rib RCH type instead of the longer RCH 2 rib GWR or for the LMS the 4rib longer versions. The brake gear is difficult to identify but is certainly not GWR Dean/Churchward and actually looks more like the SR design, although without knowing what the other side looks like, your guess is as good as mine. Whether there are to be two different designs as indicated by the second pair of CADs has not been made clear but in any case most of the errors will remain. The cradle with 4 supports does look more like one of the LMS variants although a long long way from being accurately profiled. There have been no further updates on the forums and there has been no mention of which of the Big Four designs these represent, nor any running numbers. It looks like the same ploy is being used again, don't let the modellers know what is being done and they can't criticise. When the models appear Dapol will be able to claim that there was no input from the experts and so they assumed the models were acceptable. No doubt the first batch will be a preorder sell-out long before any reviews are published just as other models have been. Regards all Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev_Lewis Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Here we go again..... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Hi Kev_Lewis Very ambiguous post, perhaps you could clarify your post ?? adrianbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Well, pics are now up of the finished article. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10549248_855123481172068_2102962158028234898_o.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10604670_855123484505401_4763109888519075503_o.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/10497985_855123457838737_3629132757663030039_o.jpg Looks a lot like the original CADs so I am guessing we have a generic product here rather than an accurate representation of a particular diagram. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Well that's saved me a few Bob, I can't see any point in spending good money on these when they are a botch patch and bear no resemblance to any particular wagon,looks like no lessons have been learnt from the debarcle of the open wagons... Back to looking at kit making instead... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Hi All Absolutely right Kathedron. It may well be the right length but it certainly is a hybrid almost exactly as i predicted in my post no 10. The victim is, in fact, the NRM vehicle and Dapol have stepped on pretty well all the mines in the minefield and made virtually no changes to the appallingly mixed up CADS of 2012. They have clearly used the GWR chassis with a poor version of an LMS axlebox cover. The wheels appear to match the chassis insofar as they are 3'1" instead of 3' 6.5" but the brake gear is not GWR D/C but more like LMS and the chassis is almost fully plated so that it would be difficult to convert the chassis to LMS or GWR. The cradle is similar to one of the LMS variations but that is perhaps being too polite. The tank is a ------- poor attempt, as the preserved vehicle does not have visible straps above the centreline being one of the externally insulated versions, although other variants do. The buffers look like they have come straight off the POWs and were bad enough on those, but are completely the wrong design for a milk tank, being too short. I suppose it has a vac cylinder but I can't see it in the picture. Quite right 838rapid, kits may be somewhat fiddly but most of them knock the Dapol effort into a cocked hat. if built nicely. This is going to worry a few people who have preordered them and those who have preordered Terriers as well, bearing in mind the way things appear to be going on that front too!. It does seem that Richard Webster is not having much luck persuading the management at Dapol to let him sort things out. Whilst they clearly let him have a go at the roof of the brakevan they seem to have put their foot down hard on any attempt at rectifying the milk tanks. I don't intend to waste my money on one of these to do a comprehensive review no matter how keen you all are to see it. If anyone wants me to, they will have to supply the model themselves. The Magazines will probably give them rave reviews again or just mention some minor problem and the modellers will buy them by the hundreds ( that is, if there are any left, after the preorders !!) Now I know why David White (of Slaters) when asked, by a member of Dapol staff at Telford, to offer an opinion on the milk tank sample, quite loudly said "Rubbish" and stalked back to his stand. I had a job not LOL but I also realised he could see the sales of his kits plummetting in the near future even if the model was that bad. Once again I wonder why, if Dapol are going to duplicate existing models, they don't just send the competitors model out to China and get them to make a decent copy. Bad luck! all those who were hoping for an accurate model, especially having waited 2 years Commiserations adrianbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 What is even more puzzling is that it is not a straight shoot-up of the N gauge version. That was originally a shoot-down of the airfix 4mm tanker I believe (shout now if I am wrong). That was a fairly old model and dated from a time when hybrid vehicles that could represent several prototypes were acceptable, it was a hybrid of GWR and LMS designs IIRC. I could kind of understand if Dapol had decided to shoot that up so as bring out a model quickly and cheaply. But why go to the effort of tooling up an all-new vehicle only once again make it a hybrid mish-mash? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Hi All I thnk the Dapol 4mm milk tank is an in house model as it cannot be the Hornby Dublo one with its diecast chassis and the Lima one is now with Hornby, As you say Kathedron they might just as well have blown it up ( apposite in view of the mines they have just stepped on ) I am not sure if the N gauge one came first but Airfix never did a 4mm milk tank so the N gauge version might well be a scale down of the Lima model which they then scaled back up again before Hornby took over Lima. The Lima model WOULD have been quite good as a GWR vehicle except for the wheels and had they scaled up their own 4mm model would have at least been ALL GWR, although not to a very high standard Their 4mm model is not as good as the Lima one in some ways,. representing one of the later non D/C brake versions. As they seem to have some sort of arrangment with Hornby to "N GAUGE" items, mainly Airfix, which they did at one time own I cannot imagine Hornby minding an O gauge version. Regads all adrianbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Hi all I probably shouldn't say this about Chinese eyesight especially after Prince Philippe got hauled over the coals for his remarks but it looks very much as though whoever put the rivets into the tooling for the solebars in post 13 must have had double vision at the time as they mostly seem to have been put in in pairs instead of singly at each end The Tower site picture, which shows the other cradle version, does not have this aberration ??? I wonder how the claim "Authentic Scale Model" proudly proclaimed on the boxes to date will stand up with the release of these latest models, I wish there was a Trading Standards officer reading this forum !!.. Kathedron says these are the finished item, surely they cannot be going to sell them like this or is this one of the reject versions that they will dispose of as short run "Specials" as they did with the reject 7 plank POWs. Yours very puzzled adrianbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Well, pics are now up of the finished article. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10549248_855123481172068_2102962158028234898_o.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10604670_855123484505401_4763109888519075503_o.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/10497985_855123457838737_3629132757663030039_o.jpg Looks a lot like the original CADs so I am guessing we have a generic product here rather than an accurate representation of a particular diagram. Can't comment on the prototype accuracy as I know next to nothing about the full-size vehicles but does that solebar inscription really say "Load nor to exaed 14 tons"!?! Andy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I love this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 838rapid Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 And the style of font used is um different. Makes you wonder if they will learn from the mistakes made. Ok perhaps not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 (edited) Hi 2mm Andy, Well spotted, Even I missed that one !! I'm now standing in the corner with a pointy hat on That may be chinese for "not to exceed" for all I know but I rather doubt it, I wonder how many hundred have been misprinted already, perhaps if Dapol had shown some prepro samples they might have avoided the problem. That's what happens when they decide they don't want to involve the modellers at all. I suppose it might be an early sample and been altered in production, They should be in the shops already but are at least on their way and may all be like that. It seems as though the Brake vans were already here when the first photos of all 4 appeared.. They have also left off the tare weight and not used an italic script which seems general. Glad you love this thread alfsboy , how about the model though ??? Regards adrianbs Edited August 27, 2014 by adrianbs 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Oh dear! Surely any livery/lettering errors like that should have been spotted at the artwork/decorated sample stage and corrected? Hopefully (just maybe) the pictures are indeed of a pre-production one.. Roy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Hi All Looking closely at the side view I think the wheels may well be the larger 3' 6.5" diameter which is correct for the LMS in spite of the fact that the chassis is basically the GWR design in most respects , At the moment this probably changes the proportions to about 45% LMS 35% GWR and 20% neither The brakeshoes are definitely GWR although the preserved NRM tanker has later style replacement LMS/BR brakeshoes which look a bit more like the GWR ones. Once again the shape of the brake lever, as shown, is not much like any prototype. The tank end supports appear to be based on the GWR design rather than the LMS so one can only assume that once again a large number of CADs have been prepared for different prototypes and then mixed up and redealt to produce the final design, an UNhappy Families CArD Game is probably the best description. with Mr LMS; Mrs GWR; Master Nobody and Little Miss LMS I don't think there are any members of the SR; LNER or BR families in the hand so far!! Regards all adrianbs Edited August 9, 2014 by adrianbs 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianbs Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Hi 2mm Andy, Where did the pictures come from, I cant find them on the internet ?? Regards adrianbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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