Poggy1165 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The special wagons, such as the GWR BEETLE, were intended for transporting highly prized and valuable beasts, not just any old animal, and attracted an appropriate hire cost. They also provided accommodation for an accompanying herdsman. The relevant section of the General Appendix to the Rule Book mentioned above by wagonman does mention the use of the partition for some cases but is generally more concerned with preventing overcrowding than with light loads. It also makes much of the need for battens on the floor to enable the animals to have a good foothold. On balance, I suspect that the partition might be used to confine a small number of animals. Nick Odd cattle going to agricultural shows were scarcely 'any old animal' in general. I suppose the point I was trying to make (evidently badly) was that you wouldn't put your prize bull, or prize cow and calf, into an ordinary cattle wagon on their own as they would be too liable to fall over. The battens on the floor were certainly to assist the animals by making in harder for them to fall, and in my view these battens should always be modelled. As I understand it the partition was purely to enable a large cattle wagon to be reduced to 'medium' or 'small' as the farmer paid for the amount of space he asked for, not the cattle van per se. This had its origins in the former provision of 'small' and 'medium' cattle wagons, which were gradually phased out. Speaking for myself, I invariably put the partition in the 'small' position if the wagon is to be loaded, as 7mm scale cattle are quite expensive, so the fewer I can get away with, the better! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Odd cattle going to agricultural shows were scarcely 'any old animal' in general. I suppose the point I was trying to make (evidently badly) was that you wouldn't put your prize bull, or prize cow and calf, into an ordinary cattle wagon on their own as they would be too liable to fall over... Yes, and reading it again, I don't think my post made things any clearer either What I meant to say was that, firstly, there's no point in bringing special cattle wagons into this discussion as they represent a quite different form of transport for quite different purposes. My second point was really intended to question the assumptions about cramming the beasts in. A significant part of the rules are aimed at avoiding over-crowding. What happened if you had too few beasts to fill a van? The appendix (1936 ed) does have a few pointers, such as: "A consignment, consisting of, say, four cows and four unweaned calves, may be loaded (if the space permits) in the same truck, by the larger animals being put together in the main part of the vehicle, and the smaller animals being loaded together on the other side of the partition. A consignment consisting of two cows and two unweaned calves must not be loaded together--either one cow must travel with its own calf, or the two cows must be on one side of the partition, and the two calves on the other, according to the senders instructions" There seems to be a particular consideration here for the safety of the calves. However, it also suggests that firstly, the wagons need not be loaded to capacity and, secondly, that the partition could also be used to separate animals rather than simply to provide different sizes of accommodation. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Odd cattle going to agricultural shows were scarcely 'any old animal' in general. I suppose the point I was trying to make (evidently badly) was that you wouldn't put your prize bull, or prize cow and calf, into an ordinary cattle wagon on their own as they would be too liable to fall over. The battens on the floor were certainly to assist the animals by making in harder for them to fall, and in my view these battens should always be modelled. As I understand it the partition was purely to enable a large cattle wagon to be reduced to 'medium' or 'small' as the farmer paid for the amount of space he asked for, not the cattle van per se. This had its origins in the former provision of 'small' and 'medium' cattle wagons, which were gradually phased out. Speaking for myself, I invariably put the partition in the 'small' position if the wagon is to be loaded, as 7mm scale cattle are quite expensive, so the fewer I can get away with, the better! Individual calves were carried as "parcels" in a sack with their heads emerging from the sack. I have a clear memory of one like this, on a sack barrow, at Derby. Although there has been mention of the general rule book, there was an entire rule book dedicated to livestock traffic. It was very complex. I suspect BR felt they were well rid of it - not least because of the type of incident (and need for surveillance) mentioned by "Flyingsignalman". It is a traffic far more suited to road transport, where one person can be expected to take responsibility for the living load. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted October 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2012 Does each pen in this photo hold the contents of one wagon? If so, that at least would support that 4-7 would be quite normal: http://kindred-spirit.co.uk/the-ipswich-cattle-market/attachment/13314/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Individual calves were carried as "parcels" in a sack with their heads emerging from the sack... I have a recollection of someone posting such a photo on here but can't find it. I also have a photo in a book but I can't find that either. Until I do, here's another that I've just found, though I would be surprised if they were transported in such a wagon, even in wartime. Does each pen in this photo hold the contents of one wagon? If so, that at least would support that 4-7 would be quite normal: It would make sense to sort the cattle into groups like that before loading, though I don't recall seeing any mention of the practice. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted October 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2012 It would make sense to sort the cattle into groups like that before loading, though I don't recall seeing any mention of the practice. I wonder is he is in fact loading it as the caption says. Looking closely at the enlarged version, he seems to be un-loading them? If so, the number in each pen would probably correspond to the number in each wagon... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I have a recollection of someone posting such a photo on here but can't find it. I also have a photo in a book but I can't find that either. Until I do, here's another that I've just found, though I would be surprised if they were transported in such a wagon, even in wartime. Nick Nick brilliant, thanks just as I remember it and just like the rule book - but I am talking about c 1965 or 1966. Paul Bartlett Completely OT but the end view of the Stephenson Clarke wagon seems to have graffiti on the top plank which has been painted out - BOBO ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Brinkly Posted October 14, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2012 I wonder is he is in fact loading it as the caption says. Looking closely at the enlarged version, he seems to be un-loading them? If so, the number in each pen would probably correspond to the number in each wagon... Well I always wondered if that was the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Somewhere I have some notes from Bristol Divisional Notices regarding the dispatch of cattle after an agricultural show. If anyone's interested I'll have a dig around and try to find them. From memory it was often just a handful of cattle going to each specific destination. Regarding the transport of individual calves, I remember seeing one just tethered to the railings at Lavington station waiting for the 9 o'clock-ish down train. It was loaded into the guard's van, the Guard presumably being responsible for any whoopsies en route... (the train only went as far as Westbury I believe) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Does each pen in this photo hold the contents of one wagon? If so, that at least would support that 4-7 would be quite normal: http://kindred-spiri...tachment/13314/ Great photo. It certainly looks like the cattle are being off-loaded, presumably on their way to market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted October 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2012 Livestock traffic is very complex subject, I thought we had covered it fairly recently. That made me curious so I searched old RMweb. Perhaps it was this thread (not quite on topic but an interesting thread nonetheless): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37785&hilit=loading+cattle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi Brinkly I notice from your opening post you have some Dartcastings models. I know this not very accurate way of answering how many cows per wagon but how about placing them nose to tail in the wagon and see how many fit in? From what others have said there was no fixed number. As others have said the size, sex, age etc will be a factor. While writing this the thought of a sign on a lift "To carry eight people".....8 the same size as me wouldn't fit in that small space Back on topic, I only recall seeing cattle in a loaded train once. I was on holiday in North Wales while waiting for the train I watched them being shunted by a Black five or 8F, apart from them not be in happy, they all seemed to have their heads lifted so their noses were overhanging the side of the wagon. The few photos I have seen of loaded cows, they have adopted the same position. Next time you get caught behind a cattle truck look out for the cows noses pointing out the side of the trailer. I know with model cattle there is not much choice of position but do not load those in the grazzing pose. Yours Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I have a recollection of someone posting such a photo on here but can't find it. Nick There is a shot of a sacked calf about 5 min 40 secs into this vintage gem- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-KLxVhFeU Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 A significant part of the rules are aimed at avoiding over-crowding. What happened if you had too few beasts to fill a van? The appendix (1936 ed) does have a few pointers, such as: "A consignment, consisting of, say, four cows and four unweaned calves, may be loaded (if the space permits) in the same truck, by the larger animals being put together in the main part of the vehicle, and the smaller animals being loaded together on the other side of the partition. A consignment consisting of two cows and two unweaned calves must not be loaded together--either one cow must travel with its own calf, or the two cows must be on one side of the partition, and the two calves on the other, according to the senders instructions" There seems to be a particular consideration here for the safety of the calves. However, it also suggests that firstly, the wagons need not be loaded to capacity and, secondly, that the partition could also be used to separate animals rather than simply to provide different sizes of accommodation. Nick Well, Nick, that is very interesting. Because it implies you could have (just) a cow and calf in the 'small' portion of the wagon and another in the theoretically verboten bit behind the partition. These partitions were locked in place and as I understood it the keys were in railway hands to stop them fiddling farmers moving them and making use of a 'large' space when they'd only paid for a 'medium' or 'small'. That being the case, we must assume that odd animals, or two, were in fact quite capable of standing up without the support of others in a jolting train for long periods, or that perhaps they had the sense to lie down. It also shows the dangers of making 'common sense' assumptions. And potentially saves me a lot of money in whitemetal cows @ £4 a pop. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I've found it! Instructions for special workings in connection with the Wilts County Agricultural Show at Warminster on 18-19 June 1925. On the Friday 19 June a special left Warminster at 5.30pm. It had left Westbury as loco plus B/3rd at about 4.20, the train from Warminster travelled only as far as Trowbridge before the loco and coach returned to Warminster to work the 9.30pm departure which travelled through to Swindon. This later train was more than twice the length. There were strict instructions re marshalling the trains – the directive even named the farmers and gave vehicle types and numbers! The make-up was as follows, reading from the engine: Paco 483 Hungerford 1 horse Kyffen Beetle D 989 Marlborough 1 cow Whatton Beetle 945 Devizes 3 cattle ? Beetle 957 Bathampton 1 bull Padfield (Brake/3rd carriage) Mex B 26310 Westbury 3 cattle Maby Mex B 68281 Woodborough 2 pigs, 1 bull Fowle Beetle 969 do 4 cattle do Beetle D 993 Radstock 3 cattle Beauchamp Beetle D 991 Keinton Mandeville 3 cattle Day Paco 422 Sparkford Mare & foal Parsons Woodborough vehicles to be detached at Westbury and sent forward on the 7.50pm. Radstock, Keinton Mandeville and Sparkford vehicles to be detached at Westbury and sent forward by the 5.58pm. Bathampton vehicle to go forward from Trowbridge on the 7.10pm. Hungerford, Marlborough and Devizes vehicles to go forward from Trowbridge on the 6.58pm. The 9.30pm special to Swindon was made up as follows: Van 212 Sutton Scotney 10 sheep Thompson Paco 460 Reading 2 horses Godwin Beetle 8379 Cranleigh 3 crates pigs Forshaw Beetle 928 Marlow 1 cow Hooper Beetle D 997 Trowbridge 3 cattle Pike Beetle D 992 do 4 cattle, 1 calf Stome Mex B 16112 do 4 cattle Fuller Mex B 103060 do 2 cattle do Mex B 103178 Melksham 5 crates pigs Lord Gelnally Beetle 930 do 3 cattle do Paco 787 do Mare & foal Lopes Paco 879 do 3 horses do Beetle 973 do Bull, pig in cte Poulson Paco 665 Calne 2 horses Slorah ? Paco 317 do 1 horse do Beetle D 987 do 3 cattle Denley Paco 48 do 2 horses Maundrell Mex B 26014 Chippenham 3 ctes pigs, 1 cow Hale Mex B 13677 do 4 cows Harding Beetle D 983 do 1 cattle Morley Beetle D 994 Swindon 4 cattle Sayers Paco 400 Foss Cross 3 horses Hocken Paco 283 do Mare & foal do Beetle D 980 Highworth 2 cattle Chillingworth Beetle 939 Cheltenham 4 cattle Cook Paco 275 Wantage Road 2 horses Loyd Beetle 970 do 2 cattle do Beetle 940 Challow 2 cttle Howse (Brake/3rd carriage) Sutton Scotney vehicle to be detached at Westbury and sent forward on the 6.40pm goods ex Weymouth. Reading, Cranleigh and Marlow vehicles to be sent forward from Westbury on the 2.35pm ex Penzance. Mr Cooper, Swindon, to arrange Foss Cross, Highworth, Cheltenham, Challow and Wantage Road vehicles forward by the first services on Saturday morning. Other odd vehicles were to be sent forward from Warminster on ordinary trains. The 4.35pm ex Cardiff conveyed: Beetle 1811 Porton 4 cattle White Beetle 530 Andover Jcn 5 ctes pigs Eason Beetle 8381 Bishop's Waltham 3 cattle Ames Beetle 3763 do 3 cattle do Beetle 549 Grateley 2 cows Whitburn Scorpion 91 do 1 van sheep do Scorpion 6276 Basingstoke 1 van sheep Jervaise to be forwarded by the 6.27pm Bristol-Salisbury: Beetle D 996 Wylye 5 cattle Chubb to be forwarded by the 5.25pm Portsmouth, being transferred at Bath to the 9.50pm thence: Beetle 82 Thornbury 3 cattle Watts Paco 231 Ledbury 1 horse Neilson Mr Thick to arrange for the Ledbury vehicle to go forward by the 10.55pm. NB: Beetles were W4, Beetles D were W7 while those with four digit numbers would have been SR vehicles. Interesting how high the number of premium vehicles – most of these animals were probably prize breeding stock and were to be treated with great care, unlike the poor sods being hauled off to the nearest abattoir… Sorry about the formatting; it seems to have gone haywire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2012 Pure gold, many thanks for finding and posting this Richard. That first train seems particularly modellable (being shorter). But even a single item like "Van 212 Sutton Scotney 10 sheep" could be a whole little modelling project in itself (detachable roof!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Pure gold, many thanks for finding and posting this Richard. That first train seems particularly modellable (being shorter). But even a single item like "Van 212 Sutton Scotney 10 sheep" could be a whole little modelling project in itself (detachable roof!). I suspect that was a Passenger Brake Van. I think you'd have more fun with the Scorpions loaded with some sort of road vehicle full of sheep... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2012 That was a somewhat larger vehicle... I would have to get files out from storage to check the dimensions - but I don't think they were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aberdare Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 A great topic and a very useful one for me as I was going to ask a question on animal transport. I was wondering how other livestock such as pigs and sheep were moved as these would be found at Hemyock and moved down the line to Tiverton, I now know what to use for their transportation and also how many fit into the wagons. All I need to do now is model trucks with opening doors!! Many thanks to all those who have contributed to the thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Just in case anyone finds this topic again, there are now some great pictures from the NRM in this topic. Not just cattle and horses, but calves in sacks, llamas, elephants,... Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isambard Kingdom Brunel Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Whilst we ar eon the subject of Cattle, I was wondering whether anyone could help with the correct type of cattle which would have been farmed in the Mid Wales area in the 1930's, I have 3 which could populate my cattle dock, but, I need to know what colour(s) they should be. Failing that its out to the sheep shop for a flock of Welsh Mountain Sheep. Thanks Nick for the link. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Whilst we ar eon the subject of Cattle, I was wondering whether anyone could help with the correct type of cattle which would have been farmed in the Mid Wales area in the 1930's, I have 3 which could populate my cattle dock, but, I need to know what colour(s) they should be. Failing that its out to the sheep shop for a flock of Welsh Mountain Sheep. Thanks Nick for the link. Not a specialism of mine, but I think you can't go too wrong with Welsh Black. Small strong, and a quick spray of chaos black should do the trick. http://www.welshblackcattlesociety.com/index.php/breed/ancient-breed.html Google is your friend - think on! Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
33040 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Came across these photos on the National Railway Museum website: http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_FT_207_A http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_FT_207_B Close up of wagons from 6:40pm special cattle train in Chelmsford yard, 10 October 1952 http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_FT_417 Title: Cows at Saffron Walden station, 1961 Cattle pens on platform with cattle wagons being loaded. http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=British%20Transport%20Commission&objid=1996-7038_BTF_92_28&keywords=cattle Off topic but still live-stock by rail (plus an unusual use for a ferry van) Farm removal, April 1934, Howarden to Stodbroke. Horses being loaded into horsebox. http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_FT_30 Elephant being unloaded from ferry wagons at Harringay west for Tom Arnold's circus, Dec 1953. http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_FE_228_B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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