Rob MacKinnon, Aberystwyth University

[GC Jack]

I haven't properly read the OP so perhaps I should before commenting, but as to the limited question - why do we model then I think the topic is much much wider than the model railway community.

 

It would seem to have roots in antiquity. Look at the beautiful models in King Tuts tomb. Now I know they were designed for a specific purpose - for use in the after life - but perhaps there is a fundamental human desire to re-create the real world in other forms. In essence art often seeks to that.

 

Oh dear heady stuff for a Tuesday morning time to sit down for coffee.

 

Jack

[The Lurker]

I haven't properly read the OP so perhaps I should before commenting, but as to the limited question - why do we model then I think the topic is much much wider than the model railway community.

 

It would seem to have roots in antiquity. Look at the beautiful models in King Tuts tomb. Now I know they were designed for a specific purpose - for use in the after life - but perhaps there is a fundamental human desire to re-create the real world in other forms. In essence art often seeks to that.

 

Oh dear heady stuff for a Tuesday morning time to sit down for coffee.

 

Jack

 

and this and other posts show that there is definitely a place for this kind of study; it's potentially reaching deep into how humans operate.

[Horsetan]

That sounds like a complete waste of time. How on earth is knowing how and why someone builds a model railway going to help anyone understand the world?

 

No wonder the country's gone to the dogs when you've got people in universities wasting money on pointless exercises such as this.

 

I can see your point but, taken to its logical conclusion, that could mean all human life and endeavour is a waste of time.

 

What is the point of life, then? Why are we here?

[Ruston]

I can see your point but, taken to its logical conclusion, that could mean all human life and endeavour is a waste of time.

 

What is the point of life, then? Why are we here?

 

The pursuit of knowledge can never be pointless nor a waste of time.

 

 

Perhaps you're correct. Not a waste of time but a waste of money. I, and many others here, have a collection of railway books. We read them in the pursuit of knowledge for no real benefit to anyone, except for the pursuit of knowledge for our own reasons.

 

But... We don't dress it up as anything more - we don't attempt to use it to get letters after our names and, more importantly, we don't use other people's money in pursuit of that knowledge.

[S.A.C Martin]

That sounds like a complete waste of time. How on earth is knowing how and why someone builds a model railway going to help anyone understand the world?

 

No wonder the country's gone to the dogs when you've got people in universities wasting money on pointless excercises such as this.

 

I can't add much to the superb rebuttals already put forward, but I am so very, very glad that I didn't see a post like this when I was discussing writing my dissertation and its content when on RMweb back in 2009. That would have put me off this site for life.

 

Given the amount of work, lack of sleep, food and social commitments that goes into such extensive projects for University, comments like that are unhelpful and only serve to undermine one's confidence. In short; completely unnecessary.

 

I'm fascinated by the OP. Some clear critical thinking going on there; which should be encouraged rather than discouraged.

 

Perhaps you're correct. Not a waste of time but a waste of money. I, and many others here, have a collection of railway books. We read them in the pursuit of knowledge for no real benefit to anyone, except for the pursuit of knowledge for our own reasons.

 

But... We don't dress it up as anything more - we don't attempt to use it to get letters after our names and, more importantly, we don't use other people's money in pursuit of that knowledge.

 

Words fail me. You do realize the OP is set the task, and that his project (title and specifics) has to be approved by his department before he can go forward to the research stage?

 

I'm beginning to think you are simply winding up the thread for the sheer hell of it.

 

There is a fundamental principle at the heart of the OP's project which could serve to form the basis of further studies and exposure for our hobby and the positive things that modelling brings to our lives. You are single handedly destroying that illusion I fear Ruston.

 

I would encourage Robert to ignore the detritus and focus on the helpful responses on the previous page.

Edited October 20, 2012 by S.A.C Martin

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Now that Rob MacKinnon has launched his ideas on us, it'd be nice to get some feedback from him as to how he's going to further pursue his research.

[Downendian]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you're correct. Not a waste of time but a waste of money. I, and many others here, have a collection of railway books. We read them in the pursuit of knowledge for no real benefit to anyone, except for the pursuit of knowledge for our own reasons.

 

But... We don't dress it up as anything more - we don't attempt to use it to get letters after our names and, more importantly, we don't use other people's money in pursuit of that knowledge.

I'm afraid this is quite a common misconception on how Universities operate (I'm head of a University department). Many PhDs are self funded, funded from industry, overseas and not therefore the public purse. My school accrues £1 million per year from overseas PhD students - a huge boost for the University and local economy. Naturally it benefits the students own countries to which almost all return after their studies. This small army of students massively underpin our research budget, and they produce a huge number of papers per year.

 

Rob has not revealed his funding source, and besides his work will have a fundamental impact on understanding why we spend hours and hours (and ££) on our chosen pursuit. We have discussed this issue previously. Who is to say research on the leisure industry is "pointless". For goodness sake I intend to spend a huge chunk of my retirement on this and it has of course a lot of support from industry, model shops and cottage industry. It is certainly not a "waste of time".

The work may lead to companies having a better understanding of their customer base, and if were Hornby Bachmann et al I'd be watching this project like a hawk and even fund it.

 

My research is entirely biomedical, and I think has a direct impact on saving lives. For most people this would be recognised as the "type of research that Universities should be doing" .But I am I part of a University the definition of which is to study a range of subject areas of broad relevance to mankind. I would defend the type of project Rob is proposing to the hilt. In relevance to Daves earlier point re our economy - the knowledge economy (Universities and education) is what may just save us from economic oblivion.

 

So Rob- welcome on board and best of luck in your academic endeavours. PhD study is a huge commitment and I'm happy to input into this study.

 

Best

 

Neil

Edited October 20, 2012 by Downendian

[GC Jack]

I agree lets give this chap our support.

 

The only problem I have here is that it was a very lengthy post and perhaps went into too much detail for the project he is pursuing.

 

From my own experience in conducting research, which has become the new day job, when seeking specific evidence from people its better to keep the questioning simple and to the point.You don't need to spell out the entire project, its aims and objectives. Doing that is counter productive.

 

Robert perhaps you could edit the post so that a simple soul like me can properly respond.

 

Jack

[Coombe Barton]

Robert perhaps you could edit the post so that a simple soul like me can properly respond.

Hence my post #2 which said "What do you require from us immediately?"

 

I think we'd all like some guidance to see if we can help.

[Miss Prism]

Hello Rob.

 

We're renaissance people.

 

We have to be good at being, in no particular order, geologist, historian, electrician, software expert, metallurgist, materials scientist, artist, woodworker, architect, jeweller, geographer, photographer, bargain-sniffer, engineer, curator, technologist, mathematician, illusionist, designer. (Feel free to add other disciplines from the arts and sciences and we will tick the yes box.)

[bluebottle]

Hello Rob.

We're renaissance people.

We have to be good at being, in no particular order, geologist, historian, electrician, software expert, metallurgist, materials scientist, artist, woodworker, architect, jeweller, geographer, photographer, bargain-sniffer, engineer, curator, technologist, mathematician, illusionist, designer. (Feel free to add other disciplines from the arts and sciences and we will tick the yes box.)

 

Well said, Miss P: and if I'd been given time and facilities to build a model railway at school rather than produce pipe racks and coat hooks, I think that I would have gained a wider and deeper range of useful skills.

[Guest dilbert]

Well after reading the OP a few times, I was confused - so went back to the blog and things became a lot clearer.

 

In the thread OP there are two sentences missing (edit malfunction?) in the opening paragraph that are apparent in the blog :

 

My research project is not entirely take up with looking at model railways, I focus on two other case studies in an attempt to take a look at why and how we make, use and encounter material ‘model worlds’. These other case studies being a historical and archival based study on the work of Britain’s Hydraulics Research Station from c1945-1970 (modelling coasts, rivers and harbours) (anyone with experience in physical hydraulic modelling are welcome to contact me) and then a historical/contemporary study on the tourists’ miniature model village (Babbacombe, Bekonscot ect).

 

My understanding of the railway modelling project part is essentially down to certain aspects of railway modelling and orientated to modelling 3d landscape or cityscape environs and potentially how to 'animate' an essentially static scene (mechanical, electronic, visual, sound etc...) and to what degree of realism, base materials, off-the-shelf (as-is, bashed), techniques, the good old dollops of compromise, subterfuges and potential ability that lays therein for the end result, to the ulimate appreciation of endeavours.

 

The direct focus doesn't seem to be related to, for example, a choice of gauge for a given scale (4mm OO/EM/P4/S/00-09), nor to preferred railway related topics (e.g. motive power, era). This may come out as secondary level data.

 

I also appreciate that the final scoping of the overall project has yet to be finalised, ... dilbert

[Bernard Lamb]

I and many others here, have a collection of railway books. We read them in the pursuit of knowledge for no real benefit to anyone, except for the pursuit of knowledge for our own reasons.

 

But... We don't dress it up as anything more - we don't attempt to use it to get letters after our names and, more importantly, we don't use other people's money in pursuit of that knowledge.

 

But there are some people who write books ( or papers to be more accurate) with the intention of getting letters after their name (or to be more accurate the word Doctor in front of it).

Nothing wrong with that as I see it. If funds are available, from whatever source, then good luck to them.

Bernard

[hmrspaul]

I haven't read all this, but have you been in touch with the HMRS. They have bursaries for work such as this - Alan Rhodes email is linked from this page, which gives more explanation http://www.hmrs.org.uk/education/index.php There is also an Academic liaison Officer.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Ruston]

Rob has not revealed his funding source, and besides his work will have a fundamental impact on understanding why we spend hours and hours (and ££) on our chosen pursuit. We have discussed this issue previously. Who is to say research on the leisure industry is "pointless". For goodness sake I intend to spend a huge chunk of my retirement on this and it has of course a lot of support from industry, model shops and cottage industry. It is certainly not a "waste of time".

The work may lead to companies having a better understanding of their customer base, and if were Hornby Bachmann et al I'd be watching this project like a hawk and even fund it.

 

My research is entirely biomedical, and I think has a direct impact on saving lives. For most people this would be recognised as the "type of research that Universities should be doing" .But I am I part of a University the definition of which is to study a range of subject areas of broad relevance to mankind. I would defend the type of project Rob is proposing to the hilt. In relevance to Daves earlier point re our economy - the knowledge economy (Universities and education) is what may just save us from economic oblivion.

 

Thank you for that explanation, Neil and when put like that it does seem to be of some practical use to someone and if so I withdraw my comments.

 

But the OP said this:

 

 

 

What is the point of this research?

This is a traditional ‘blue-skies’ humanities project, knowledge for knowledge’s sake, obviously not having any policy relevance i.e. helping to tackle poverty or develop a new vaccine. Its relevance lies within academia and to helping students better understand the world. Its chief contribution then is theoretical and conceptual, furthering debates in my discipline (human geography), and within the wider social sciences and humanities. The published work (academic journal articles) that should (I will try my best!) come out of the model railway study could be on reading-lists for students all over the world so hopefully will allow many people to think of railway modelling, to quote Binstead in his 1948 book ‘The Model Railway Hobby’, (Percival Marshall, London) as more than ‘grown men ‘playing with toy trains’’ (p.1)(!).

 

 

Who cares if it's seen as grown men playing with toy trains or not? I couldn't care less and so I don't see any point in reseach into the hobby to try and prove otherwise.

 

Either the OP has drastically over simplified the point of this research or it really is a waste of time - IMHO, of course.

[Downendian]

Thanks Dave for this measured response.

But like many things in life I am challenged by the question why?

Life- how does it work? If we understand we may live much longer and have long happy retirements.

Cancer- why? How - when we suss it we will nail it.

The Universe - why? How? There is life out there somewhere.

Subatomic particles - why? how? Can we make an unlimited supply of energy?

Railways - why has it dominated most of my life? What motivates me to divert so much energy to it, I don't understand why, and I'd like to know why.

 

Neil

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Taking Neil's last point about railways, why isn't there an emerging interest in motorways and motorway modelling?

 

What is it about trains?

[Adam]

Be fair Dave, having a Ph. D myself (nothing whatsoever to do with railways), having a sibling in the process of doing a PhD and more friends with doctorates in progress in all manner of subjects than I can easily count, the simplification in Robert's OP is unsurprising: he seems only to have recently started and, this being the case, he's trying to get a feel and shape for the project. I'm not sure a forum is necessarily the ideal place to try and work that out, just like first draft layout plans and under-finished models, I have a hard drive full of first drafts which I'm glad won't see the light of day so it's a brave decision and I'll be interested to see the finished result, not that a doctoral thesis is a finished result. I should know, mine is in the process of becoming a book.

 

Adam

[Bernard Lamb]

Taking Neil's last point about railways, why isn't there an emerging interest in motorways and motorway modelling?

 

What is it about trains?

How long have you got?

Let us start with the myth of dragons.

Then along came the industrial revolution and they were invented in the real world.

Take it from there.

Bernard

[jamie92208]

Hi Rob

 

This is a fascinating project and one that deserves support. I have had many conversations on this topic during long journeys related to the hobby, as well as conversing on many other topics. I think that there is something in the subject matter that has an inherent attraction for many of us in that railways run by a set of rules and can be predictable compared to other things. However the hobby is a very broad church that allows many different skills to be learned as well as allowing different people to fulfill differring needs. Certainly in the club environment layouts tend to be built by teams with complimentary skill sets. Certainly the hobby needs the trade and the publishers and vice versa. The O Gauge Guild was set up primarily to support the hobby as the specialised trade that supported 7mm modelling was in a very poor way in the 1950's. The Guild has been a very successful force in helping the trade that supports it to grow and thus growing the hobby and the market. I am fairly sure that the other gauge/scale societies have performed a similar role in their own fields This relationship is I believe called symbiotic. Successful exhibitions also need a balance of trade and layouts and the mix of trade is often as big a factor in the decision to attend a particualr show as the mix of layouts.

 

Any proper rigorous research into what makes the hobby tick can only be worthwhile in the long run. I hope that your project goes well and would be quite happy to help but live outside the area that you specified.

 

 

Jamie

[Robert MacKinnon]

Many thanks for the considerable amount of comment this first blog and post got, if you are reading from the blog and from ‘modelling musings and miscellaneous’ I will be talking here to commentators on both my blog and modelling. Another post later will deal with some critical thoughts on some of the conceptual issues that posters have highlighted, i.e what is modelling, but this post discusses in particular what I am going to be doing from here although I want to start this post with some issues that more recent posters have raised;

 

Principally this project was developed by myself, although initial ideas for a research project revolved around the emergence of Road Safety in Britain from the 1900’s to the present day, how road space has, since the 20^th century been a focus of technologies, experiments and general governmental concern. In particular the model railway bit of my project emerged from a general lack within the Arts and Humanities and Social Sciences of attention to the hobbyist modelling community, which can be thought of of course as not only railway modellers but military/battlefield modellers and wargamers, ship, aircraft and car modellers, and these come under the idea of the ‘craft consumer’ and we can include many more things too including making and engaging with dollshouses, cooking, making clothes, decorating. I will be engaging with military/battlefield modellers and wargamers, ship, aircraft and car modellers over the course of my research if only to be able to develop some broader arguments. The conceptual framework of ‘model’ and ‘modelling’ emerged generally though the potential for a novel but important line of attack from which to explore these concepts and I will come onto what we can think of modelling is a bit later.

• The project should not be seen as simply a means to an end for a qualification. Whilst the project may earn a qualification I would hope to build on this research throughout a potential academic career. I am viewing this project as the stepping stone to developing some research themes that have the potential to stay with me for the rest of my life.
  

• This project as I highlighted in the previous post is taxpayer funded (and most good academic research is whether at my early career level or through mid and late career), there a various hoops to have to go through (quite rightly) to get it, including relevance and impact (often either one or both). I note some debate around relevance and that this project should not be funded by the taxpayer. I don’t want to get into hot water by commenting on this debate and this goes right through into government and indeed even with academia.
  

• My first post was too long, as some commentators have suggested, and I have to agree with them. Furthermore it was not as grounded in practical substance as it should have been which would have also made some of the conceptual ideas a bit more clearer and thus accessible, as one commentator helpfully suggested I ought to place some forum discussion links that nicely fit with each of the conceptual themes that I am interested in i.e ‘space of the home’ ‘illusion’ etc. Others have suggested I edit the piece; I will have a go at doing this when I get the chance.
  

• On a final point to this section, I have been very impressed by the response that my project has got and will try and reply to as many posters as I can.
  

 

 

For the Second part now I note comments by Weston Sunset and Coombe barton;

 

Weston Sunset

Now that Rob MacKinnon has launched his ideas on us, it'd be nice to get some feedback from him as to how he's going to further pursue his research.

 

Coombe barton

 

"What do you require from us immediately?"

I think we'd all like some guidance to see if we can help.

 

Whilst I have perhaps regrettably spewed everything out all at once, it is my intention to use my blog on the forum to talk about things that I will be writing about in my research and ask questions relating for instance to your own practice of the hobby. I intend to talk in more detail and less academically about some of the conceptual themes I highlighted in the first post as well as some that seem to emerge. I am currently sorting out interviews with modellers, I have already undertaken a 3hr one with a garden railway modeller. The current state of the research project is that at the moment modellers are contacting me and I am either visiting them or, in some cases, I am undertaking correspondence via e-mail with them. Indeed in some cases, for instance with the garden railway modeller I interviewed I will also be corresponding with him via e-mail to ask further questions that I had not thought about at the time or wanting to clarify things. Some modellers I am just corresponding with, principally through a questionnaire (c100 questions or so) which I am in the process of drawing up. If you are interested in taking part in the questionnaire then please e-mail me, at

rjm11@aber.ac.uk

I will have to give you an ethics form for you to look over first and sign (electronically) which basically details what I will and will not do with the research (i.e kept anonymous in all discussions about the research and will not be given to 3

^rd

parties). After looking through the response from the questionnaire I will ask further probing questions to the respondents whether through another formal questionnaire or just through e-mail. I will also, as I highlighted in the original piece be seeking to go to some model railway exhibitions within the Wales and West Midland’s areas. Several or so modellers have got back to me and have invited me to attend some of their club shows which will be a great experience. I will also be in contact with manufacturers either formally through interview/questionnaire or informally at trade fares.

 

So, as to Weston Sunset’s point that;

Now that Rob MacKinnon has launched his ideas on us, it'd be nice to get some feedback from him as to how he's going to further pursue his research.

 

I hope to have answered this, I also hope I have been able to answer

Coombe Barton’s point that

 

"What do you require from us immediately?"

I think we'd all like some guidance to see if we can help.

 

A number of modellers who have got into contact with me have been very helpful and have offered to critique my first post. I understand there are some problems with it as posters have here highlighted and people have e-mailed me too about this. Despite these problems over length and legibility I would welcome modellers to contact me at

rjm11@aber.ac.uk

and I will send over a word document of the first post where I very much welcome modellers to suggest different angles, ideas, links and so on and very welcome to include your own ideas and knowledges and practices about these matters, particularly in the research themes section although for those of you are interested in participating via questionnaires some of this will emerge there instead so you don’t have to do this. As modellers have done so far, they have written (via the computer) underneath or within my text either highlighting their writing from mine or using a red font. I have very little practical and emotional knowledge of the hobby and welcome critical eyes to look over it to help make the research stronger.

[Mikkel]

I’m picking this thread up again as I came across the outcome of Robert’s PhD project.  His thesis includes quotes from RMweb discussions and interviews, so if anyone is interested in an analysis of why we model railways and what matters when we do it (chapter 4), it can be downloaded here:

 

https://pure.aber.ac.uk/portal/files/9884787/MacKinnon_R_J.pdf

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Mikkel

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I’m picking this thread up again as I came across the outcome of Robert’s PhD project.  His thesis includes quotes from RMweb discussions and interviews, so if anyone is interested in an analysis of why we model railways and what matters when we do it (chapter 4), it can be downloaded here:

 

https://pure.aber.ac.uk/portal/files/9884787/MacKinnon_R_J.pdf

 

Hi Mikkel

Thanks for finding this. I remember when Robert started his work and some of the frankly hostile reactions from those who think that academic research should only be funded if it has obvious practical benefits. They'd probable have said the same about an academic paper from 1937 of interest only to pure mathematicians on "the uncomputability of the Entscheidungsproblem",

Robert's thesis is worth reading. There are areas where, unsurprisingly, some sources have perhaps been given greater weight than they warrant but I'm finding it quite thought provoking and fascinating to see our hobby looked at seriously from outside.

Rob doesn't appear among Aberystwith's staff profiles for the Geography Dept. I also can't find anything by or about him since 2014 and his original website no longer exists so I'm wondering where and what he went on to. His profile says that before starting his PhD he worked in the heritage sector. I'd like to read his 2009 Undergraduate Dissertation looking at how the  Great Western Railway Company construed in its inter-war publicity materials a certain way of experiencing ‘Rural England’. That was so successful that it still influences our hobby today

[hmrspaul]

I'm surprised that there is no reference to David Jenkinson's The long drag. He covers much the same themes in an academic treatise based on Davids love of both the S&C and also modelling. 

 

Paul

[Mikkel]

3 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Rob doesn't appear among Aberystwith's staff profiles for the Geography Dept. I also can't find anything by or about him since 2014 and his original website no longer exists so I'm wondering where and what he went on to. His profile says that before starting his PhD he worked in the heritage sector. 

 

According to Linked-In Robert is in the museum world, including the Ironbridge Gorge Museum: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-robert-mackinnon-824a7a116/

 

I have only read chapter 4. I thought the most interesting parts were those that discussed how railway modelling mediates our relationship to space and time.