BRITISH RILWAYS CODES on BR Coaches MK1, MK2 & MK3 Coaches

[7APT7]

Hi All

 

Please can someone resolve for me a bit of a mystery or lack of knowledge on my part, I'm sure someone on here will know the answer and who as more knowledge on MK1, MK2 & M3 Coaches and possibly MK4’s. Unsure on what MK4 Coaches have, as that is an ECML, but comments on what they say would be appreciated to.

 

I take many photos of Modelling and the Stuff or Real Railways, and something as been bugging me just lately with regards to Real Life Coaches and what is Written on the Ends of the Coaches, I have asked serveral people mainly family and I am no wiser. On the one where you have the Weight of the Coach and Max Speed which is normally in its own box along with TSO/FSO/BSK/SLE/SLEP… etc, depending on what coach it is, well just under that information and outside the box is a

Large C1 or C3, I have never seen as of yet any C2 on Caches.

 

I have found that on the Coaches that have the C1 I have found written on a MK1 and MK2 coaches, so it cannot be it Mark Reference, and on the MK3 Coaches they all seem to say C3, as I lived mainly on a WCML, I cannot speak for what it says on a MK4 Coach.

 

Does anyone know what these C1 & C3 References mean and would I find a Coach with C2 on a coach, they all seem to be on ex BR Stock as when I am on Gala Days when out and about locally I tend to either be on old BR Stock and in that case I see C1 only whether it’s a Mark1 coach or a Mark2 Coach, or If I’m travelling on Ex-LMS or Ex-GWR I don’t get these printed on the coaches at all.

 

Hope fully I will get some photos uploaded of what I am referring to… soon

I would appreciate any possible Answers….

 

If anyone as a Photo of a Coach with a C2, that would be cool to see on here as Proof they are out there...

 

Many Thanks in Advance for your Time & Knowledge

Jamie

[newbryford]

C1, C3 are route clearance codes. Mk3's are longer than Mk1/2 so need larger clearances on curves. You'll also find C1/C3 on multiple units.

 

Here's a C3 on a 23m long 156, 150's are C1

 

 

HTH,

Mick

[7APT7]

Hi Mick,

 

That’s great mate and thanks for your Photo upload to...

 

Sorry Mick for the other questions that now that I need to ask, just so I know for sure, in lemans terms...

 

So I take it, there is no C2 is that Correct...?, and when you say clearances, is that as in, to stop the coach de-railing or the bogie doesn’t turn enough to make the curve...? Interestingly does it apply to Loco's and Wagons, as some Wagons are longer or equal to MK3 with a C3 code... or do they have a different code on wagons...?

 

Are all DMU and/or EMU classed as a C3 then, and is there only certain parts of the rail network that will accept the a C3 coach/DMU, as I take it C1 (and if there is a C2) can go everywhere around the UK rail network...? and that would leave me to question what parts of the UK can a C3 go...?

 

Thank you so much again Mick for your input... and Photos Proof on a DMU.

 

Jamie

Edited October 13, 2012 by 7APT7

[John M Upton]

To add to the confusion there is/was a C0 code which was applied to Hastings Gauge DEMU's and certain BR(S) vans which had straight sides for the restricted loading gauge that was down that way.

 

In addition to the British Railways 'C1' code, many Southern Region EMU's also had the old Southern Railway designation 'Restriction 4' which meant the same thing on a cast plate on the carriage ends.

 

Class 460 Gatwick Express units (as was) have 'C1 Appx 3' on the ends designating some sort of variation on the standard C1 restriction, most modern EMU's however no longer seem to carry these C1/C3 codes anymore for some reason.

[7APT7]

Hi All

 

Many Thanks for your input on this it all helps, and like you, still raises more questions then...

 

I have had a quick sort through some photos of trips to Minehead with a Sleeper on a mix of Br Blue MK2 & MK3's, and most recently at Birmingham Snow Hill on the Class 67 Chiltern Railways MK3's and nearer to where I live the Arriva North Wales Class 67 MK2 & MK3, (was the Class 57 Arriva)... Interestingly, I was in Deganwy Station yesterday (Saturday) just outside Llandudno and in a photos below I catch the First Car of a Class 175, No.175101 with C3 on it, slightly blurd as it was moving out of the station.

 

If anyone can join in on uploading photos of this, would be a good idea...

 

Arrive North Wales MK2 Coach Below.

 

 

 

Chiltern Railway MK3 Coaches Below.

 

 

 

 

Chiltern Railways Class 165, No.165 011 Below.

 

 

Deganwy Class 175, No.165 101 with C3 on the First coach Below.

 

 

DRS Trip Wolverhampton to Carlisle MK1 Coach Below.

 

 

Jamie

Edited October 14, 2012 by 7APT7

[7APT7]

Hi All

 

Also a Continue of above Photos...

 

Eastliegh Open Day back in 2009 Below.

 

 

Below were on the MK2 Coaches that took me to Eastliegh Open Day.

 

 

ELR Gala Day in Sept last month Below.

 

 

Minehead trip on MK2 & MK3 Coaches Below.

 

 

 

 

Thanks again for you valued information, my knowledge as grown for the better, but... Yes you are correct as opened up a can of worms, I'm interested to see a C0 and the 'C1 Appx 3' if you have Photos, I would be interested in seeing them, Not that I dont beleive anyone, the ones that have been said are new to me and as they do not run in my neck of the woods, would love to see a Photo.

 

Thanks again to RMWeber's newbryford & John M Upton for the input on this so far...

 

Jamie

[Steven B]

The C1, C3 & UK1 codes only applies to coaching stock (and DMUs). Frieght stock uses W codes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge#Great_Britain

 

There are links on this site http://www.btinternet.com/~joyce.whitchurch/gauges/text.htm which show pictures giving dimensions of each of the loading gauges.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Titan]

And Locos use L codes. Now, I wonder what the L, C & W, could stand for...

[Talltim]

Obviously pre-C3 http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BTC_BR_RouteRestrictionsStandardCoaches.pdf

[The Stationmaster]

Obviously pre-C3 http://www.barrowmor...dardCoaches.pdf

Yes - C3 came in for Mk 3/HST vehicles.

[big jim]

And then to confuse things futher there is LSL and SSL on mark 3 coaches which is long swing link or short swing link suspension, one if them having futher restrictions on certain routes (chiltern is cleared for both as we have a mixture of LSL and SSL mm3s)

[The Stationmaster]

And then to confuse things futher there is LSL and SSL on mark 3 coaches which is long swing link or short swing link suspension, one if them having futher restrictions on certain routes (chiltern is cleared for both as we have a mixture of LSL and SSL mm3s)

As far as I'm aware Jim the only restriction on long swing link suspension on Mk 3/HST stock is that they are barred from (southern Region) 3rd rail electrified routes. Used to a right pain trying to find out which sets had which so not a bad idea to mark them.

[big jim]

I believe that to be the case, there are fgw diversions coming up again soon with services running from reading via the chiltern or southern into waterloo and there is much discussion on another forum about the HSTs running over southern metals due to the LSL suspension

 

The chiltern MK3s have a sticker on the ends with LSL or SSL on to easily distingush them, i'll grab a photo tomorrow sometime as i have the loco tomorrow

['CHARD]

As far as I'm aware Jim the only restriction on long swing link suspension on Mk 3/HST stock is that they are barred from (southern Region) 3rd rail electrified routes. Used to a right pain trying to find out which sets had which so not a bad idea to mark them.

That's correct, and they were a wretched nuisance until XC dispensed with them first time round. Now they don't run afresh in scheduled service away from the NESW axis, I don't suppose it's such a big deal.

 

EDIT: except for the issue Jim's just raised in the post above mine!

Edited October 14, 2012 by 'CHARD

[Peter Kazmierczak]

 

As far as I'm aware Jim the only restriction on long swing link suspension on Mk 3/HST stock is that they are barred from (southern Region) 3rd rail electrified routes. Used to a right pain trying to find out which sets had which so not a bad idea to mark them.

 

Branded like this.....

[Poor Old Bruce]

And Locos use L codes. Now, I wonder what the L, C & W, could stand for...

 

Er... If anyone is still wondering, they refer to Locomotives, Carriages and Wagons. The C1, C3 etc refers to the respective vehicle loading gauge to which the vehicle were built. I believe they are built to kinematic envelopes nowadays.

[The Stationmaster]

Er... If anyone is still wondering, they refer to Locomotives, Carriages and Wagons. The C1, C3 etc refers to the respective vehicle loading gauge to which the vehicle were built. I believe they are built to kinematic envelopes nowadays.

They always (in BR days) took Kinematic Envelope into account although the way that was done has probably varied a bit over the years.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

As an aside, there were also variations between works/depots as to how the different builds of Mark 2 and 3 stock were applied on the carriage ends.

 

Thus the following variations could appear:

 

Mk 2f

Mk2f

MK 2F

MK2F

MK 2f

MK2f

Mk 2F

Mk2F

 

Was there ever one "official" way, or did it change over time?

 

Don't think they ever applied Mk IIf etc to coach ends, but carriage working books did use that nomenclature.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Western Sunset

[Baby Deltic]

 

[7APT7]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have to say, Thank you to everyone who as answered my questions in some way, I don’t know if I’m more knowledgeable as I have had my question answered in some many ways or now opens more questions and more answered needed. Thank you for those who have uploaded those snaps of the coach ends...etc.

 

I was thinking one or two will reply, but when I just saw 18 replies, I was gob smacked...

 

Now, with regards to L, C & W, will I find a Plate or sticker somewhere on the Locomotive with L#### (# = would there be a number(s) or other letter(s) of some sort) and the same with wagons. I would be interested if a Photo of where on the Loco the ‘L Code’ can be found and a Photo of wagons, as I do Photo all types of Coaches and Wagon...

 

On another note, I was in Holyhead today and the New Arriva DVT class 82, No. 82 306 and Three MK3’s one of which was the Buffet Coach with a Class 67 in Arriva Blue but No Arriva Decals on the Cl67, No.67 003. I will show a Photo soon and the C3 Codes on the MK3 Coaches...

 

Thanks again to everyone, my knowledge as grown somewhat with regards to C1 & C3 meanings.

 

New Question if RMWebers can just give a little extra information on the following:

'The chiltern MK3s have a sticker on the ends with LSL or SSL'... What does the LSL or SSL stand for...?

'The C1, C3 & UK1 codes only applies to coaching stock (and DMUs). Frieght stock uses W codes'... Does anyone have a Photo of a UK1 Code...?

'L, C & W'... Can anyone with Photos of where I can see on the Codes for/on Loco/Wagon (/Coach... I take it, its all in the End Panel)...?

 

Jamie

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Mike mentioned this above; LSL = long swing link, SSL =short swing link.

 

BT10 bogies (on HST and Mk 3 stock) have vertical supports (swing links) hanging from the top of the bogie frame to the horizontal spring plank between which the airbag suspension sits. SSLs hold the spring plank higher than LSLs.

 

With LSLs, if the airbag failed then there's a possibility that the bogie might foul electrified 3rd rails. Hence LSL bogies are not allowed over such lines.

[45125]

Mike mentioned this above; LSL = long swing link, SSL =short swing link.

 

BT10 bogies (on HST and Mk 3 stock) have vertical supports (swing links) hanging from the top of the bogie frame to the horizontal spring plank between which the airbag suspension sits. SSLs hold the spring plank higher than LSLs.

 

With LSLs, if the airbag failed then there's a possibility that the bogie might foul electrified 3rd rails. Hence LSL bogies are not allowed over such lines.

 

Not all vehicles marked LSL or SSL have the said fitted, however TOPS usually has it right.

 

Al Taylor

[newbryford]

 

 

On another note, I was in Holyhead today and the New Arriva DVT class 82, No. 82 306 and Three MK3’s one of which was the Buffet Coach with a Class 67 in Arriva Blue but No Arriva Decals on the Cl67, No.67 003.

 

 

I think that 67001-003, all in Arriva blue don't carry any Arriva branding.

 

 

 

Are all DMU and/or EMU classed as a C3 then,

 

 

 

No - 150's are C1 as they are only 20m long so don't overhang on curves as much as 23m long 156/158's for example.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[7APT7]

Hi All

 

Firstly Thanks Mick for the information again, Below as I said are a few photos of the trip to Holyhead today...

Below is the Class 82 DVT, No.82306

 

 

 

The Arriva DVT Class 82 had C3, I notice with this Photo what does the NZ502 - 1C mean... seen Bleow.

 

 

The Photos Below are of the Buffet Car of the MK3 Arriva What does the AJ1 RFM mean (I know the RFM part but what does the AJ1 Stand for)...?

 

 

The Photos Below is what was on the other Two MK3 Coaches...

Thanks to Al Taylor for the Answer which I noticed these coaches did have LSL & SSL, What does the SP mean...?

also what does the AC2H Mean...?

 

 

 

Finally there was a Voyager Class 221, No. 221 105 with the Photo below.

 

 

On the above Photo, which was a 5-Car Voyager Set (221), the Following Questions...

 

First Box at the Top, bottom line it says Seats 26F 230S, What is the 230S Stand for... (26F, I presume is the Number of Seats in this Car 26 First Class or Forward Facing Seating... Help)...? Is the 230S then, the total Number of Seats over the 5-Car DMU...?

 

Second box down at the top it says 221 (which I'm taking as the Class of Loco) but What is the DMF stand for...?

also (because it being over 23M in Length or I should say as it says 23.85m (RMWeber newbryford as you said) Do I take this as a C3 Coach even though it does'nt State anywhere...?

 

Many Thanks Again Guys for all your input and Help, its great to be able to ask these type of questions, to get a better understanding of the Real Stuff...!

 

Jamie

[newbryford]

Hi Jamie,

The AC/AJ/NZ codes are TOPS codes, similar to those used on wagons - A is for Passeneger carrying vehicles, N is for non-passenger carrying coaching stock. The numbers give other information. A quick google reveals this list.,although it looks like the list isn't fully up-to-date, not having the Z for the DVT (82xxx driving van trailer)

With regard to your post above, you surmise most of the information correctly, F is First class,S is Standard.

 

I used the generic 20m or 23m description for DMU/EMU as that's the nominal length of the body. The dimensions stated are the overall, including buffers or door handles for example.

 

221 is the class of DMU. DMF is a driving motor first.

 

HTH,

Mick