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BRITISH RILWAYS CODES on BR Coaches MK1, MK2 & MK3 Coaches


7APT7
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Slightly surprised/confused that one coach can have both SSL and LSL codes on the same vehicle... :scratchhead:

 

I saw that too! I wonder if it has one bogie of each type?

 

EDIT - the LSL/SSL appears on three coaches...... ??????

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited by newbryford
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Slightly surprised/confused that one coach can have both SSL and LSL codes on the same vehicle... :scratchhead:

 

Hi John

 

What as in... You normally only get one or the other SSL or LSL never together... or is my question to much in one ask...lol (So what does the SP mean under those...?)

 

Thanks for your responce...

Jamie

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I saw that too! I wonder if it has one bogie of each type?

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Are Man... Mick

 

You now have to explain, you are getting Technical... dude

 

They were on all 3 Coaches, the two TSOD's Coaches and on the RFM coach (Buffet)...! apart from the DVT which had the NZ502 - IC but no other lettering under that...

 

Jamie

Edited by 7APT7
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Hi John

 

What as in... You normally only get one or the other SSL or LSL never together... or is my question to much in one ask...lol (So what does the SP mean under those...?)

 

Thanks for your responce...

Jamie

 

SP is the shopping proposal, ie the date it is due a classified repair/overhaul..

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Hi Jamie,

The AC/AJ/NZ codes are TOPS codes, similar to those used on wagons - A is for Passeneger carrying vehicles, N is for non-passenger carrying coaching stock. The numbers give other information. A quick google reveals this list.,although it looks like the list isn't fully up-to-date, not having the Z for the DVT (82xxx driving van trailer)

With regard to your post above, you surmise most of the information correctly, F is First class,S is Standard.

 

I used the generic 20m or 23m description for DMU/EMU as that's the nominal length of the body. The dimensions stated are the overall, including buffers or door handles for example.

 

221 is the class of DMU. DMF is a driving motor first.

 

HTH,

Mick

 

Hi Mick

Thanks for the update on that mate, I’m starting to understand most now... with regards to C1, C3 etc…

Thanks Mick…

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Hi All

Can you help me further…?

 

Are there any visual differences just from looking at a Rake of Coaches…?

For example, I think I know what a MK2D coach looks like, which as 8 Windows and a Toilet window and all non-opening windows (Air-Con) would I be correct...!

 

Some (I think) are straight forward visually; say a coach that is the Seating one end and Half Brake (Guards) at the other end is a BSK... But there are probably variants on the codes even though it looks the same visually.

 

Regards to MK1 Coaches, I sometimes have difficulty wondering if that is a MK2 coach or a MK1 and that’s before I even begin to tell you the Letters, if they exsist on MK1 Coaches. How do I tell the difference between a MK1 & MK2, and MK3 & MK4 coach…? Are there any visual differences just from looking at a Coach… and also the Letters (A-G for example)...? Does anyone have Photos of each Coach from their neck of the woods and their corresponding Mark’s / Letter / Livery...? It would be nice to have a visual catalogue by uploading your own Photos of each Livery and state their Codes. (even if they no longer are in service, Ex MK2# in Virgin Red & Grey for example...)

 

Thanks again guys for your continued help, and getting to understand the terminology and the visual differences.

 

Jamie

Edited by 7APT7
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Trying to keep it as simple as possible, here's some spotting features of the more obvious bits (there are lots of other less obvious differences including ways to differentiate between the Mk2s, but that's probably more detail than you want):

 

Mk1 - Separate body and chassis, 'angular' corners, 63' (20m) coach (apart from the full brake which was only 57').

 

05023SBristolTM240707b-L.jpg

 

Mk2, Mk2a - rounded coach ends, monocoque (no separate chassis) construction

 

05249SDawlishWarren260610-150-L.jpg

 

Mk2b, Mk2c - Doors now wrap around the end of the coach.

 

1232878951_WHVTm-L.jpg

 

Mk2d, Mk2e, Mk2f - Coaches now air conditioned, so sealed one-piece passenger windows.

 

05941Paignton310704-L.jpg

 

Mk3(and 3a/3b) - Coaches now 75' (23m) long, skirting between the bogies hiding the equipment, ribs along length of roof

 

11067Bow300707a-L.jpg

 

Mk4 - tilt body profile, although no tilt fitted (it means the sides angle in more than a Mk3), skirting also now outside the bogies not just between

 

11278Peterborough300709-26-L.jpg

 

All images from my site here which might be of use if you are looking for more:

http://ukrailwaypics...mug.com/Coaches

Edited by Glorious NSE
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Are there any visual differences just from looking at a Rake of Coaches…?

For example, I think I know what a MK2D coach looks like, which as 8 Windows and a Toilet window and all non-opening windows (Air-Con) would I be correct...!

Possibly - though Mk.2D TSO coaches have the toilets on the same side, 2E & 2F have them diagonally opposite, so the former has either two or no toilet windows, the latter have one and a matching opposite blank.

Some (I think) are straight forward visually; say a coach that is the Seating one end and Half Brake (Guards) at the other end is a BSK... But there are probably variants on the codes even though it looks the same visually.

It could have an open interior which would make it a BSO - much more common if a Mk.2.

Regards to MK1 Coaches, I sometimes have difficulty wondering if that is a MK2 coach or a MK1 and that’s before I even begin to tell you the Letters, if they exsist on MK1 Coaches. How do I tell the difference between a MK1 & MK2, and MK3 & MK4 coach…?

Mk.1 coaches are pretty easy to spot as they normally have an obvious underframe area - the stepped in section under the main bodywork at footstep level. There are only a few exceptions to this, most of which are irrelevant if you're looking at current day hauled coaches. The other Mk.1 features are the trussing underneath and the continuous curve of the side section - Mk.2, 3 & 4 coaches are flat at window level.

Mk.2 coaches are the same length (more or less) as Mk.1 coaches, but they have wider windows. Early ones have sliding vents (the top divided into three sections compared to four in Mk.1s), very early ones (Mk.2 & Mk.2A) have the old style narrow doors. From Mk.2B onwards the main passenger doors are wider, wrap-round style at the outer ends. Mk.2B & Mk.2C still have sliding vents, Mk.2D, 2E & 2F are air-conditioned, so have shallower windows.

Mk.3 coaches are longer, always air-conditioned and run on BT10 bogies with air-bag suspension. Apart from the sleepers, they are all based round an eight window saloon whether First or Standard class. They still have hinged wrap-round doors, excepting some recent rebuilds. The same basic shell is used for HSTs, fo course, though hauled ones have buffers and are wired differently.

Mk.4 coaches are only used in IC225 sets. Same length as Mk.3s but a different profile to allow for tilt (so the sides slope in more at the top), they have had power doors from new and fairings at their outer ends as well as between the bogies. The bogies themselves have a drop centre shape with air bags.

There are a lot more differences, particulalrly but not exclusively in the Mk.2 series, I could mention, but books are available if you want to know more.

and also the Letters (A-G for example)...?
If you mean the letters on the panels on the ends, that's part of the TOPS code - 1= Mk.1, Z = Mk.2, A= Mk.2A, etc. to 2F, G = Mk.3 Given they had 1 or Mk.1, I don't know why they didn't have 2 for Mk.2!! If on the sides by the doors they could just be the position in a set train.

 

The pictures posted by Glorious NSE while I've been typing this are a useful guide to the basic types as described above.

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Only the TSO stock had opposing toilets on Mk2e and Mk2f stock, the FO stock still kept the windows to one side.

 

One way to tell between Mk2e and Mk2f stock is by the number of fans on the underframe. All the Mk2e stock had Stones air-conditioning so they all have 2 small fans except the brake coaches which have one small fan. Most Mk2f stock had Temperature Ltd air-conditioning equipment which had one large fan but some of the Mk2f FO stock had Stones equipment instead.

 

The sure fire way to tell is on the other side, Mk2e stock is like Mk2d stock in having a pressure ventilation unit underneath the middle of the side of the coach. By looking at 5941 above you can see it is a Mk2f, there is a large gap in the boxes on the underframe.

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Only the TSO stock had opposing toilets on Mk2e and Mk2f stock, the FO stock still kept the windows to one side.
There was good reason for the revision. The toilets were smaller in Mk.2E & 2F stock which enabled the interiors of the TSOs and BSOs to revert to 64 and 32 seats respectively - Mk.2B to 2D stock had only 62 and 31 seats which used to cause problems when reserving seats. Likewise the Mk.2D & 2E stock still had the pressure ventilation equipment with air-conditioning added - the Mk.2F used a simpler, combined air-conditioning and heating system. Most also had Mk.3 style seats - it was meant to be all of them, but there weren't enough being produced at the time, so quite a few of the TSOs were fitted with the Mk.2 type. Of course, subsequent refurbishments have sometimes altered interior fittings.
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Hi All

 

Just to say thank you for all your responses and photos...

 

Yes I am aware of the Many Books, but even better coming from people who possibly work on the Railway, it's these members that sometimes give you just that bit more information. I've understood more in that last 2 days of this thread than 2 months going through books, I know to some RMWeber’s it was a simple question. Just need the right person to explain, and interesting from reading through the thread how some other RMWeber’s may have picked up some knowledge, which they didn't know before, I am one for sure, and thanks to all who have had a say in explaining.

 

Thank you for the Photo's uploads and is great to see the different liveries that once were, some I can relate to, others I was born too late to appreciate the earlier liveries back in the Days of Real Steam Travel, but I love to see them still going, on rail tours, which I tend to go on quiet often.

 

I will have sort of some more photos and possible questions, if I need more information...!

 

Jamie

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Nowt wrong with the question Jamie however as Peter (Western Sunset) has said a grounding from some of the more basic BR coaching stock books would save you a lot of time and for those posting replies to the various questions. Many of the questions and answers (and those you've not thought of yet)! have already appeared within other threads on RMweb and are therefore there for the taking already without repetition. It would unfortunately take a lot more than one thread such as this to go into coaching stock in any real depth...

 

For even more detailed information you can also join Robert Carroll's BR Coaching Stock group on Yahoo http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/

 

Worth a thought at least.

Edited by Bob-65b
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Hi Bob-65b

 

Thanks Bob for the Info and to all the many links I have had from this thread, it as been so valuable to me and have found enough information to read for the next decade. :no:

Iwould like to say thanks you all, for the comments I have had and the responses and Links to plenty of other Photo's...etc :O

 

Jamie

Edited by 7APT7
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  • 1 year later...

Rather than starting a new thread, does anyone mind if I ask this question here? I'm upgrading a few of my Mk3s in my Night Riviera rake and looking at some cast buffers - can anyone recommend any good cast buffers to use on Mk3 A (Loco Hauled Mk3s)?

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As far as I'm aware Jim the only restriction on long swing link suspension on Mk 3/HST stock is that they are barred from (southern Region) 3rd rail electrified routes. Used to a right pain trying to find out which sets had which so not a bad idea to mark them.

It alright marking them LSL and SSL, but some have the wrong bogies on.

 

Al Taylor

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Are you saying that the quoted length is incorrect or not? If not, I am not sure the comment is very useful.

Rob

If you look at the picture of a data panel on an actual DVT earlier in the topic it has a length quoted as 18.83m so I think we can take this to be correct. So again, why C3 I wonder?

 

Rob

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