Colin parks Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Attention has turned to the brasswork needed for the various detailing components and structural parts such as trusses and bogie pivots. The tiny air horns and inner end steps are shown soldered in pairs. This has proved the best way of not losing any of these small parts before they are attached to the model. The trailer coach centre buffer has already been pre-blackened with a product (forget the name) from Eileen's Emporium, which is intended for blackening aluminium. This produces a pleasing, brownish grimy black finish when used on brass. A jig has been made to aid the construction of consistent truss units. It is a worthwhile investment of time as, this jig can be used for the 4 SUB I hope to build soon. The truss units themselves are made from 3.5mm x 1mm brass for the mainframe, with 1.5mm sq. section for the trussing. I have simplified the way the queen posts (shall call them that for want of a better description) join the horizontal truss section. Once these trusses are fixed to the 40thou. plastic floors, the chassis becomes reassuringly rigid. These hefty trusses also add a lot of weight low down, which improves the running qualities of the the coaches. The lower part of the jig has a provision for forming the trusses. This was not used because: A.) it was made to the wrong geometry - having measured to the underside of the floor instead of the underside of the solebar, thus 3.5mm too deep. B.) It seemed easy enough to solder the trussing directly to the mainframe anyway, adding the queen posts last of all. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 At last the Tin HAL is up on its bogies. (Actually only three new ones, with the motor bogie coming from a donor 2 HAP.) There are a myriad of tiny parts to go on yet, but as soon as the coaches are coupled they can at least have a test run. The Ian Kirk 8ft SR bogie mouldings were kindly donated to the cause by Rapahel. I have just realised that the motor bogie's footsteps will need to be moved as the 2 HAP has a different door arrangement. The underframe equipment is hopefully all going to be completed this weekend. The trailer coach boasts an SRG 'Adjustaride' pick-up bogie - quite a heavy beast. I did file off the pick-up shoe fuse boxes and mountings which should really be mounted on the solebar anyway. This coach is almost complete, with only the inner end lower steps to add, plus some brake rigging. There is still a little bit of adjustment to be done to the ride height, as the inner end of the motor coach is a tad low on its bogie. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hmmm… tempting me to scratch-build a Manchester EMU. Must be so satisfying to build something this well from scatch, impressive work Colin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold A Murphy Posted November 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2012 That is looking Tin peachy Colin! Best wishes, Alastair M PS - my eyesight's better than my jokes, honest. Although come to think of it....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted November 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2012 That is impressive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2012 Colin, Even in white I must say that this is one impressive build. Looking at the level of detail most wound think that it's 7mm not 4mm! Will you be starting on the interior soon? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hi Colin, Very impressive. I like the look of your jig, a great idea. Are those Hornby wheels in the trailing bogies? Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hmmm… tempting me to scratch-build a Manchester EMU. Must be so satisfying to build something this well from scatch, impressive work Colin. Hi Mucky Duck, I wonder what class number is the type of unit you want to build? If you let me know I'll have look and see if I can give any advice (but I don't have any experience of making anything with pantograph collectors). It really isn't too hard to make coaches in plastic. If you can get the windows cut out, you are half way there in terms of difficulty if not time. Sourcing plastic roofs which can be adapted to your chosen prototype would also save time. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hi Colin, Very impressive. I like the look of your jig, a great idea. Are those Hornby wheels in the trailing bogies? Cheers for now, Ian Hi Ian, Funny you should ask, I have just been turning the flanges down of the Hornby wheels. This entailed prising them back out of the bogies. I should have done so before, as I knew that the new Pattern Hornby wheels have very deep flanges to compensate for the fact that they are quite narrow across the treads. Unmodified, they just bump over my pointwork. I have reduced to diameter over the flanges by 1mm (a 0.5mm cut in the lathe) and re-profiled the flages with a needle file. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 That is looking Tin peachy Colin! Best wishes, Alastair M PS - my eyesight's better than my jokes, honest. Although come to think of it....... Thanks Alastair, Re. jokes: I'm surprised nobody has enquired why a 'Tin' HAL is being made of plastic yet! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Colin, Even in white I must say that this is one impressive build. Looking at the level of detail most wound think that it's 7mm not 4mm! Will you be starting on the interior soon? Andy G Hi Andy, Thanks for your comments. I am now working under magnification which makes everything a whole lot easier to manipulate etc. Re. looking like 7mm scale, the one thing I would dare to disagree with in David Jenkinson's book (sad to say he is no longer around - I would have loved to have met him) is omitting brake gear and fine detail on coach underframes. It does show in 4mm in my opinion and adds to the busy, fit for purpose look of a coach chassis. Where I would agree fully with D J is that there is not much point in going to town on coach interiors. (Unless the carriages are going to be illuminated, I suppose.) The Tin Hal's interior will just consist of partitions and seating - plus some extra bits in the cabs. This model already has its corridor/compartments made. With previous scartch-builds, it was usually about now in a build where I would remember to make the corridor partition, sliding doors and so on. This meant getting back into cutting windows. I have found it is much easier to get all the window cutting done in one go. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2012 Colin I tend to agree with both you and DJ on the underframe details, Certainly the bits that you need to see MUST be there, but things that you don't (or won't) see can be left out. My WCJS sleeper has got the standard Ratio underframe (which is correct) but it should be dual fitted, so I have fitted the Westinghouse air tank, but not the westinghouse cylinder, as that is hidden inbetween the two battery boxes. I bashed an old triang Caley Grampain Coach earlier this year, which meant rebuilding the ends, roof, and underframe (as l fitted 12 wheel bogies to it). David would have said that you only need to fit the outside two trussrods and queen posts, but I fitted all four as you do notice them. The other details were there too (except perhaps for the lighting control box, as i couldn't see where it should be). The interior of that one was just the partitions, not even seats as you just can't see them. Mind you my WCJS compo sleeper has now got pillows and upper berths in the 3rd class ends! (and I'm going to pull the blinds down!). I just hope that with a bit more practise I can turn out vehicles that are as good as yours (You've seen my efforts!) Thanks Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Colin I tend to agree with both you and DJ on the underframe details, Certainly the bits that you need to see MUST be there, but things that you don't (or won't) see can be left out. My WCJS sleeper has got the standard Ratio underframe (which is correct) but it should be dual fitted, so I have fitted the Westinghouse air tank, but not the westinghouse cylinder, as that is hidden inbetween the two battery boxes. I bashed an old triang Caley Grampain Coach earlier this year, which meant rebuilding the ends, roof, and underframe (as l fitted 12 wheel bogies to it). David would have said that you only need to fit the outside two trussrods and queen posts, but I fitted all four as you do notice them. The other details were there too (except perhaps for the lighting control box, as i couldn't see where it should be). The interior of that one was just the partitions, not even seats as you just can't see them. Mind you my WCJS compo sleeper has now got pillows and upper berths in the 3rd class ends! (and I'm going to pull the blinds down!). I just hope that with a bit more practise I can turn out vehicles that are as good as yours (You've seen my efforts!) Thanks Andy G Hi Andy, Re. underframe details, I wouldn't put on anything which can't be seen when the vehicle is on the track: i.e add nothing that is only seen when the coach is turned upside down! It is all a question of taste as to what goes on and what doesn't when it comes down to it. As for practise, if I can do it, anyone can. A magnifying lamp, sharp knife and accurate marking out are the secret to success. The breakthrough I had with window cutting and side production was to forget about measurements and mark the plastic directly from the drawing, with the plan and side one above the other. There are pictures of the way I do it on this thread (I hope!). Measuring from a plan and transferring those measurements to the side just doesn't work for me, as there is too much risk of errors creeping in. Mind you, you must have a reliable plan to start with! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 This model I built back in '77 is perhaps instructive when it comes to interiors. The compartments are painted and peopled to a similar level to the outer sections, but its mainly a case of knowing it's there rather than seeing it! The follies of yoof. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Thanks Alastair, Re. jokes: I'm surprised nobody has enquired why a 'Tin' HAL is being made of plastic yet! All the best, Colin I almost referred to it as a 'plastic HAL' at one stage! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 This model I built back in '77 is perhaps instructive when it comes to interiors. The compartments are painted and peopled to a similar level to the outer sections, but its mainly a case of knowing it's there rather than seeing it! The follies of yoof. Well Bernard, I haven't graduated to populating the coaches yet! That's a nice looking model. 009 gauge I would guess. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2012 Colin, What I did for my WCJS panelled sides was to get the drawing to 4mm scale and then print it out on the 10 thou sides. You have to be carefull not to smudge the ink too much, but if you work carefully you can then cut them out without having to measure at all! I'm not sure if I had roughened up the sides first whether the ink would have 'stuck' more to it. Much easiler than marking up with a pencil! Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Well Bernard, I haven't graduated to populating the coaches yet! That's a nice looking model. 009 gauge I would guess. All the best, Colin Thanks Colin. It is and all plastic, the sides being 10 thou." clear with a tracery of 10 thou." white panelling laid over. I thought it illustrated well how little of the inside of compartment stock you can normally see. What I did for my WCJS panelled sides was to get the drawing to 4mm scale and then print it out on the 10 thou sides. ... Much easiler than marking up with a pencil! Andy G Neat idea! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2012 Colin, What I did for my WCJS panelled sides was to get the drawing to 4mm scale and then print it out on the 10 thou sides. You have to be carefull not to smudge the ink too much, but if you work carefully you can then cut them out without having to measure at all! I'm not sure if I had roughened up the sides first whether the ink would have 'stuck' more to it. Much easiler than marking up with a pencil! Andy G Hi Andy I tried the printing idea about 10 years ago. I was going to build a class 126, the smugged printing was not a problem it was my hamfisted cutting out. Too many sliding top windows damaged so I put it to one side. I still have the plastic card sheet but the donor coaches were parted with many moons ago. I am still amazed how Colin cuts out the windows curved corners, freehand. When I do a window with a radiused corner it is cut out with a 45 degree corner that is then filed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2012 Clive I think that half the problem is the knife that you use. I started out (years ago) with a Stanley Knife (too big to weild carefully) then to a medical scalpel (the blade wondered too much) to the Swann Morton which was recommended by David Jenkinson. I find that my level of skill has jumped so much with just the change in knife. Mind you, I file my corners rather than cutting them like Colin. I think there maybe another thing going on here too. Colin uses his hands all day for his day job, whereas a lot of us plock at keyboards, or, like me, move heavy bits and pieces about (if you can call levers and gates heavy!), so he may well have a bit more control of his hands! One day I hope to be half as good as Colin, but I fear I may never get there! Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2012 Clive I think that half the problem is the knife that you use. I started out (years ago) with a Stanley Knife (too big to weild carefully) then to a medical scalpel (the blade wondered too much) to the Swann Morton which was recommended by David Jenkinson. I find that my level of skill has jumped so much with just the change in knife. Mind you, I file my corners rather than cutting them like Colin. I think there maybe another thing going on here too. Colin uses his hands all day for his day job, whereas a lot of us plock at keyboards, or, like me, move heavy bits and pieces about (if you can call levers and gates heavy!), so he may well have a bit more control of his hands! One day I hope to be half as good as Colin, but I fear I may never get there! Andy G Hi Andy I discovered the brass Swan Morton handle many years ago, saw one in a radio control model shop and thought that will last longer than the plastic handles. I usually have a number 11 blade in it. Never did understand why other modellers used surgical blade handles, especially after watching junior surgeons trying to use them. It is OK for modellers to mess up plastic but when it comes to living bodies They do not feel as comfortable as the brass or plastic handles. I wish I could find a readily cheap supply of the disposable scalpel and handle we as nurses would use they seem ideal as far as comfort for working is concerned but you cannot replace the blade. As far as the class 126 project was concerned I had done the three variations of DMBS sides by marking out and these had been cemented to some Replica Mk1 coaches. Only a couple of sliding vents cut trough. It was the DMS, a buffet and a first trailer I was experimenting with. It was my own clumsiness that made me stop, and was going restart another day. Two events happened one was the discovery that the 126 had a "Swindon" profile not a Mk1 continuous curve and a realisation that I had far too much stock and too many projects on the go. Most of these were not suitable for my ER based loco depot, including my MTK sides only "Tin Hal". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2012 Clive, I use a number 1 blade in mine, I have no-idea what the profiles of the other types of blade are! I must say that compared with any other knife I've used, the Swann is so, so much better, it does (as DJ said) feel part of ones hand. I find that the points of the blade don't stay on the end for long, they snap very easily. Mind you the resulting 'knib' is useful for scribing LNWR door panels on their sleeping and dining car stock! Thankfully the blades are cheap! Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Hi Mucky Duck, I wonder what class number is the type of unit you want to build? If you let me know I'll have look and see if I can give any advice (but I don't have any experience of making anything with pantograph collectors). It really isn't too hard to make coaches in plastic. If you can get the windows cut out, you are half way there in terms of difficulty if not time. Sourcing plastic roofs which can be adapted to your chosen prototype would also save time. All the best, Colin Thanks Colin. I was thinking of the Manchester-Bury Class 504 specifically but it's not something I'll tackle for a while yet because I'm still only mid-way through building a DC Kits one, after at least two years. One day though… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 Thanks Colin. I was thinking of the Manchester-Bury Class 504 specifically but it's not something I'll tackle for a while yet because I'm still only mid-way through building a DC Kits one, after at least two years. One day though… Hi Mucky Duck, I'll still be here then. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 Hi There, I've been away today, but there has been an interesting discussion on marking out and cutting coach sides today. I think whatever works best for an individual is the way to go. Printing on sides or marking out in pencil, tools, visual aids - it is all down to what feels best. I would agree with both uax6 and Clive Mortimore re. Swann-Morton brass craft knives being the best for the job. I too found a Stanley knife blade too large for the job. The blades I now use are the Swann-Morton No.1's and the tips do break off rather easily sometimes. I have used about ten blades on this Tin HAL. One blade per side and the rest for all the other plastic butchery. The reason I went over to cutting radiused corners rather than cutting diagonally across and shaping the curve with a file was that I kept cutting too far across, resulting in a ragged corner. Even with the curved cut, the curve is then refined and finished with a round file. I always cut the curve by digging the blade into the cutting mat and guiding the sheet round it, effectively pushing and turning at the same time Another thing that perhaps I have never mentioned, is that when cutting the windows, I always check the reverse side (inside looking out)for faults once the opening has been made. The window has to be as good a shape as possible looking from either side. It is surprising how often I think a window has been fine only to look from the other side and find it isn't at all! Marking out lines can cause tricks of the eye and it is very hard to judge if a cut is straight or not when viewed next to a straight marked line. Printed or pecilled in. it is best to keep markings as thin as possible. You are always going to have to judge whether to cut to the right, left or down the centre of a marked line. For that reason, I always double-check the width/ depth of the window with a ruler before cutting. It only takes afew seconds per window and saves correcting over-width cuts later. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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