Paul Cram Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Time probably. Most of us don't have the time to handbuild every aspect of our layout - unless we settle for a BLT or similar. OO is so much less time consuming because of the availability of ready-to-lay track/pointwork. Points don't take long to build and there is rtr track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2012 Can we please stick to the original purpose of the thread - to discuss the future of kit building. Leave the merits or otherwise of OO/EM/P4 track standards to the naughty step where they have been put on occasions too numerous to mention Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 This is the bit I don't understand. If you aren't using rtr then why not build to the correct guage especially as you are taking the trouble to model a real location? Unless I have misunderstood this comment, my layout - Hessle Haven - is built to P4 gauge. All track is handbuilt, the scenery is handbuilt, the signals are all scratchbuilt. There is a thread on Modelling Real Locations which covers the build. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod4 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Can we please stick to the original purpose of the thread - to discuss the future of kit building. Leave the merits or otherwise of OO/EM/P4 track standards to the naughty step where they have been put on occasions too numerous to mention I agree please do NOT let this get into yet another argument on gauge as that will only end up in the thread being locked! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Unless I have misunderstood this comment, my layout - Hessle Haven - is built to P4 gauge. All track is handbuilt, the scenery is handbuilt, the signals are all scratchbuilt. There is a thread on Modelling Real Locations which covers the build. Cheers Mike It was your comment that misled me. It appeared that you were buiding kits in OO. I was not intending to start another guage war, just exploring the reasons for kit building. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelester Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 This is the bit I don't understand. If you aren't using rtr then why not build to the correct guage especially as you are taking the trouble to model a real location? Paul, There are likely to be many reasons for the use of kits: re-gauging is just one of them. Others that occur to me are non-availability of the RTR version, and a desire for a "better" quality model. Anyway, on to the main current topic -- as John Armstrong has redirected it -- "How do we encourage people to start kit-building?". And I do not think locomotive kits have much to do with it. Instead I believe it's a matter of confidence. You might counter that "I would say that wouldn't I?", given I am a professional teacher, and have done the soldering demo for MMRS for a few years. Let's reflect on the MMRS soldering stand experience. The usual reaction is "This is all too difficult for the likes of me!" I counter with a "Wouldn't you like to at least try?" And more often than not, despite the zero-cost opportunity to learn, I get no takers. Children, well that's entirely different. Provided I keep my fingers out of the way, the six year olds -- girls and boys -- have a great time. So, why the adult reluctance? Actually, this is easy to explain: embarrassment and fear of failure. And yet, and yet, ... the prospect of failure is more or less essential to effective learning. That and the ability to ask for help. If you accept the above anecdotal evidence, this suggests an approach: a 3 hour kit bash at an exhibition. MMRS to supply demonstrators. I'm thinking of something like the Branchlines Drewry shunter or Railbus. On a related topic, I'm contemplating a week-end kit-build, sometime in December; the results to be posted here. So: do we go for cheap (I'll have to make the wheels), simplicity (use some extra components), or quality (use as many expensive components --- some currently unavailable -- as possible). The kit itself is dirt cheap, and on cursory inspection, more than acceptable. And we get to compare against a Hornby RTR version! What more could you want? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 If I were a locomotive kit producer I'd have a display at several important exhibitions each year giving the general public a chance to wield a soldering iron and have a go at assembling some aspect of a steam loco (for example). Once modellers believe that such a kit is do-able (and fun) it removes some of the doubt etc that they would be able to complete it. Self-confidence is part of this issue. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 You don't have to dive in to a loco kit straight away. One could start off with a wagon perhaps, etched brass perhaps not and the progress from there. This would build skills and confidence and then allow progression to locos. Perhaps a chassis for rtr body. I started with a perseverance chassis under a J72 body. Support of a club would also be a good idea where skills can be exchanged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 It was your comment that misled me. It appeared that you were buiding kits in OO. I was not intending to start another guage war, just exploring the reasons for kit building. No problem, Paul, and I'm actually not a P4 zealot, so won't stoke up that debate, here or anywhere else. Some have referred to me as an 'experienced kit builder'. Actually that's not true either. Yes I scratchbuilt a few locomotives in 4mm, though I used plasticard for some of the bodies. So I could solder (just) but you wouldn't have wanted to see the first such efforts. Quite by chance (well perhaps some intent), I started kit building about two years ago and became involved in test building etched kits - the first took me a long time. I realised that I was lacking in some of the necessary skills so I 'bought a book' and spent an entire week practising soldering, identifying what iron and bits I needed. Scratch building lattice gantries and signal bridges also helped in perfecting (and it ain't perfect, yet) the soldering techniques. I also realised that I needed some way of rolling boilers so bought a boiler rolling machine and practised with that. Then I bought a chassis assembly jig and practised with that until I could assemble them absolutely square and correctly spaced. Now I can build etched kits reasonably well, though I still aspire to be very much better. My inspiration, as I've said before, is a comment by Jack Nicklaus, the golfer, when asked why he was so lucky at winning Golf Majors. His reply 'Funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get!' Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrislock Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Well I'm in the process of putting together a collection of Midland/LMS kits which have been bought from the Bay of E or which are currently available. The results are here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/877-chrislocks-4mm-blog/ and you will see that I have little previous regarding these kits, but I do have a few years of scratchbuilding 2mm locomotives and soldering kits from the 2FS association. Indeed, I am deliberately operating on a low budget for this project, so have taken up the lining brush etc to minimise costs. The results would not please the perfectionist perhaps, but that is not the point. To me this offers a quick way into a 4mm Midland layout , which otherwise might take so long it would never materialise. The speed and ease of putting these Ratio kits together is astonishing. The 2-4-0, although not the smoothest runner, is by no means the dog some folk claimed, and I'm sure I can get this running better with a little work. What a shame that such complete quality plastic kits are no longer freely available, because I can see that way in as tempting more people into modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 No problem, Paul, and I'm actually not a P4 zealot, so won't stoke up that debate, here or anywhere else. Some have referred to me as an 'experienced kit builder'. Actually that's not true either. Yes I scratchbuilt a few locomotives in 4mm, though I used plasticard for some of the bodies. So I could solder (just) but you wouldn't have wanted to see the first such efforts. Quite by chance (well perhaps some intent), I started kit building about two years ago and became involved in test building etched kits - the first took me a long time. I realised that I was lacking in some of the necessary skills so I 'bought a book' and spent an entire week practising soldering, identifying what iron and bits I needed. Scratch building lattice gantries and signal bridges also helped in perfecting (and it ain't perfect, yet) the soldering techniques. I also realised that I needed some way of rolling boilers so bought a boiler rolling machine and practised with that. Then I bought a chassis assembly jig and practised with that until I could assemble them absolutely square and correctly spaced. Now I can build etched kits reasonably well, though I still aspire to be very much better. My inspiration, as I've said before is a comment by Jack Nicklaus, the golfer, when asked why he was so lucky at winning Golf Majors. His reply 'Funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get!' Cheers Mike Nor am I. I do enjoy building kits and track and hopefully get better the more I do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 ...I wander past displays of superbly built locos at exhibitions and tend to avoid starting a conversation with the builder, in case I ask a daft question etc. An opportunity to sit down and have a go at something would get past this self doubting barrier. Just a thought Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Paul, There are likely to be many reasons for the use of kits: re-gauging is just one of them. Others that occur to me are non-availability of the RTR version, and a desire for a "better" quality model. Anyway, on to the main current topic -- as John Armstrong has redirected it -- "How do we encourage people to start kit-building?". And I do not think locomotive kits have much to do with it. Instead I believe it's a matter of confidence. You might counter that "I would say that wouldn't I?", given I am a professional teacher, and have done the soldering demo for MMRS for a few years. Let's reflect on the MMRS soldering stand experience. The usual reaction is "This is all too difficult for the likes of me!" I counter with a "Wouldn't you like to at least try?" And more often than not, despite the zero-cost opportunity to learn, I get no takers. Children, well that's entirely different. Provided I keep my fingers out of the way, the six year olds -- girls and boys -- have a great time. So, why the adult reluctance? Actually, this is easy to explain: embarrassment and fear of failure. And yet, and yet, ... the prospect of failure is more or less essential to effective learning. That and the ability to ask for help. If you accept the above anecdotal evidence, this suggests an approach: a 3 hour kit bash at an exhibition. MMRS to supply demonstrators. I'm thinking of something like the Branchlines Drewry shunter or Railbus. On a related topic, I'm contemplating a week-end kit-build, sometime in December; the results to be posted here. So: do we go for cheap (I'll have to make the wheels), simplicity (use some extra components), or quality (use as many expensive components --- some currently unavailable -- as possible). The kit itself is dirt cheap, and on cursory inspection, more than acceptable. And we get to compare against a Hornby RTR version! What more could you want? I quite agree. It was the specific case of modelling outside of what the RTR market offers and starting from scratch that I was wondering about. I was in that position in the mid seventies and chose the P4 oprion. It was a lot harder in those days as there weren't so many available components. I do understand why people build kits in OO when they have large collections of OO locos already as the cost and time to convert can be abortive. A number of friends that model P4 also have large collections of OO which will not be converted for that reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 If I were a locomotive kit producer I'd have a display at several important exhibitions each year giving the general public a chance to wield a soldering iron and have a go at assembling some aspect of a steam loco (for example). Once modellers believe that such a kit is do-able (and fun) it removes some of the doubt etc that they would be able to complete it. Self-confidence is part of this issue. Dave Do you think Health and Safety would allow you? Seriously though, most of the kit producers I know would simply find this a good way to lose money, as whatever increased sales resulted would not cover the costs of attending and paying for the stand. Even a well-known O Gauge retailer (mostly RTR) has given up on certain shows as they are a loss maker. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I've just successfully rolled my first brass boiler. Now that is rewarding, but quite nerve wracking! This sort of thrill is not in the RTR domain in my opinion and is one of the excitements of kit building. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Nor am I. I do enjoy building kits and track and hopefully get better the more I do. There is no better philosophy for doing it. Good on you. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 ...I wander past displays of superbly built locos at exhibitions and tend to avoid starting a conversation with the builder, in case I ask a daft question etc. An opportunity to sit down and have a go at something would get past this self doubting barrier. Just a thought Dave You are probably not alone. When I used to demonstrate track building at Expo EM most people would look but not say anything. I would engage them in conversation and they would then start to ask the questions. As they say no question is stupid if you don't know the answer. It is the only way to learn. Often they can be quite thought provoking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 ...I wander past displays of superbly built locos at exhibitions and tend to avoid starting a conversation with the builder, in case I ask a daft question etc. An opportunity to sit down and have a go at something would get past this self doubting barrier. Just a thought Dave I once spent an entire afternoon, at an exhibition, talking to John Brighton about his experience in model loco building; I sought him out for that purpose. I can't tell you how useful that was; inspirational, motivating, insightful. And John was only too pleased to share his knowledge. I still e-mail him with queries and he always replies. Strangely, during that afternoon, a number of other folk joined in; just needed someone to start the inquisitive ball rolling, I guess. Asking is one of the key requirements for learning anything! Now then, where can I learn to type properly? And I want to do another degree, in philosophy, learn more languages, improve my painting and learn to play my guitar better. And I'm well past sixty. Off topic, I know, but tis the nature of the beast! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 in case I ask a daft question As I am constantly telling my kids, there's no such thing as a daft question. Until you ask it again for the third time. None of us was born knowing it all, despite what some may believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I am trying to look at ways to encourage new people to have a go. What would make a kit an attractive proposition to them? Is there a way to make kitbuilding mainstream? Maybe there isn't but maybe there is. Form a manufacturer's perspective you have this backwards. If there is a significant proportion of the population that doesn't like oranges, then publicity campaigns are not going to change that very much. If a producer wants to reach those people he has to provide fruit that these people will buy, and just maybe he will be able to persuade all the orange eaters that there is more to life than citrus fruit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I hear from many people on here that as oo is the most popular gauge that is way there is so much RTR stuff. I always thought it was the Manufacturers of the RTR stuff that invented oo gauge to suit their needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I hear from many people on here that as oo is the most popular gauge that is way there is so much RTR stuff. I always thought it was the Manufacturers of the RTR stuff that invented oo gauge to suit their needs. A track gauge of 16.5 mm is the correct gauge for HO - 3.5 mm/foot. I believe that is how 16.5 mm came about. When the hobby adopted 4 mm/foot - 00 - the gauge remained the same, hence the anamoly. Someone correct me if this is wrong. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I have read that the larger scale was adopted by Hornby because they couldn't fit the then current motors into UK outline locos. They were either not able or not willing to alter the track in line and so spawned the compromise/mess we have today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2012 I have read that the larger scale was adopted by Hornby because they couldn't fit the then current motors into UK outline locos. They were either not able or not willing to alter the track in line and so spawned the compromise/mess we have today. Of course, it was not the first time. "Proper" O gauge is 1:48 (quarter inch to the foot). The Germans could get a motor into their locos at 1:45 on 32mm track giving a correct scale/gauge. With our smaller loading gauge, we had to go for 1:43.5 but kept the 32mm gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2012 My inspiration, as I've said before, is a comment by Jack Nicklaus, the golfer, when asked why he was so lucky at winning Golf Majors. His reply 'Funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get!' Cheers Mike I think you'll find it was Gary Player who said that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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