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The future of loco kit building


Guest oldlugger

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Strangely enough, on reflecting on a lot of the conversations going on here, I looked at my own actions - not thoughts or motivations, but what I have actually done, and found myself going in what might be termed a retrograde direction.

 

Some of us remember the Jamieson and Jidenco offerings of old. These were not much more than a set of parts cut out ready to be assembled (allegedly!), but were in no way 'kits', answering more to what we now know as 'scratch-aids' (which I used to know as a large bristly thing for bath time...).

 

So, by way of analyzing my 'actions', what do I mean? I have bought some nice kits along the way and thrown a few together in the time- honored tradition of the Airfix kit assembler. Not bad, but come a few years later they started to look a bit 'off', not because I had beaten them up but because I had become a better modeller (I believe, anyway). So when it came to the next lot - etched kits pretty much exclusively, I took the plunge and built them, but along the way thoughts of 'well that's not right', or 'what halfwit conceived of this approach' came to mind and so out came the 'skills' and they were made 'better' (for me) until I was looking at what I wanted - faithful models.

 

I think at this point in time this all may be a product of a 'generational thing' - we are stuck between the Airfix generation who were able to throw bits together and by dint of careful design and simplicity, a model could be conjured up, and the RTR world in which no such assembling is needed. Something has to drive the production of our 'models' but I am not sure it should be fully-fledged 'kits' that the Airfix years made us expect. Technologies are out there that give us frets of etched parts and castings/3D prints give us components, but really we are seeking our 'model' not a 'quick win' as those awful management texts espouse.

 

So, welcome back to the (future) world of Jamieson and Jidenco MKII that have the benefit of CAD drawings and 3D printing in which we source all our parts and make the rest to make our 'models'.

 

So, an anecdote that summarizes my 'actions'. Bought loco kits (4 of the same). Opened box, looked at bits. Body OK, but will need all the pipes and wires etc. Chassis - hmmm, not sure. OK read Guy Williams (those familiar with my scribblings will note the frequency he is mentioned. There is a reason - he knew his stuff, so why not learn from that?) then learn to use a fretsaw. Ha! bingo, scratch built chassis! Four very nice locos now slinking their way down my tests tracks in a manner I only wish girls in my youth could...

 

As an aside, by comparison, the aero plane modelers often growing out of the 'Airfix' condition are happily buying their 'kits' and then more etched stuff from other sources to produce superb models. Hybrid model-making, anyone?

 

Best,

Marcus

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As a footnote to the above perhaps a brief look at the world of Brassmasters might also throw some light of the future of models vs. RTR. This company has been producing some first rate conversions for RTR to P4/S4. Similarly, Chris at High Level has been producing stuff to put under RTR bodies and now Justin at Rumney models has been doing wonders for scale chassis to put under 'kit' wagons as well as 'out of the box' RTR stuff. So, to reiterate my thoughts; What exactly is a 'kit' in the multi-media, self-service, customizable anything twenty first century anyway?

 

I do, however, have in front of me a first rate kit that is easy to assemble and serves its purpose perfectly. They are made in Scotland. The instructions are simple and the quality is the stuff of inspiration; align glass, open bottle, pour. Reset bottle, raise glass, enjoy. Now that's a 'kit'

 

Best,

Marcus

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Some years ago I dabbled in P4, and decided on a J36. I bought the GEM kit, built a chassis for both the loco and tender from scratch, made quite a few detailed parts and finished with a nice model of 65243 which featured in Railway Modeller.

 

Sadly, I sold it on when I changed to 7mm.

 

But it shows that the way EHerts did it was alive and kicking 20 years ago or more.

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Some of us remember the Jamieson and Jidenco offerings of old. These were not much more than a set of parts cut out ready to be assembled (allegedly!), but were in no way 'kits', answering more to what we now know as 'scratch-aids' (which I used to know as a large bristly thing for bath time...).

 

So, welcome back to the (future) world of Jamieson and Jidenco MKII that have the benefit of CAD drawings and 3D printing in which we source all our parts and make the rest to make our 'models'.

 

As an aside, by comparison, the aero plane modelers often growing out of the 'Airfix' condition are happily buying their 'kits' and then more etched stuff from other sources to produce superb models. Hybrid model-making, anyone?

 

Best,

Marcus

 

 

The Jamieson/Eames loco kits were kits !!! all you had to add were Wheels, motor and gears. All the bending and forming was done by the manufacturer. Jedinco again were kits not scratch building aids, may have been very difficult to make but they were kits

 

Very muck unlike a scratch aid kit of a 7mm narrow gauge coach I bought where there were 2 sides and 2 ends. Nothing else  !!

 

What you missed with aero modellers is that some (like boat builders) go on to buy plans and then form the aircraft out of Balsa sheet and strip

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Hi,

 

I've been reading some of the comments regarding 3D printing with interest. I'm not sure that it would be fair to say that a well thought out 3D print could not be considered a kit. There are several small businesses offering quite nice one piece resin body kits that only require a few detailing pieces and a suitable chassis - personally I believe that 3D prints should fall into a similar category and I believe we will see an increase in interest in the coming years.

 

In case you hadn't guessed, I'm one of those who is very much in the 3D printing camp. I prefer the methods here and I'm in awe of anyone who can take some raw materials, or even an etched kit and turn it into one of the stunning models frequently seen on this forum.

 

With most things, a good 3D print depends on the design work, choice of materials and the 'builder's' ability to finish it off. Yes, most of the affordable 3D printing materials exhibit a degree of stepping but I usually find that this is a simple matter to remove (usually taking much less time than to fettle and build a white metal kit). To demonstrate that, in my opinion, we've already reached a stage where 3D printing is a viable alternative to more traditional modelling methods, I've attached some pictures of some of my in progress models. All are N gauge and use adapted commercial chassis (with the exception of the J50 which has a custom built chassis from N-Stars).

 

Is this the future of kit building? I doubt it but it will be another technique that the modeller can add to their arsenal....

 

Just my 2p...

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Steve

 

I dont think anyone is dismissive of these items, I guess some would consider sticking a few hand rail knobs and lamp irons on to a body would;d think they are kit building, and I guess if there are a few parts to assemble then I would agree. Most of us would consider that building a kit is assembling quite a few items to form a model. Where as detailing and painting a body is defiantly model making but not kit building, as kit building is not scratch building, even if you are building either a Jamieson or Jedinco kit.

 

I do accept that there are grey areas and also other areas where they may overlap two types of building methods. For instance I bought a scratch building aid kit of a coach (sides and ends). Its not really a scratch build as the 2 most difficult parts (panelled sides and ends) are pre made, but its not a (complete) kit, as many parts have to be scratch built.

 

Now I think the future of model making is very bright, both in the progress of cad design packages and 3D printing

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Whilst I have completed coach kits, the step to full P4 standard mitchell/ finney locomotive kits, have to admit is beyond my skills however hard I try. Can I ask what is the typical commission fee to construct and paint a kit?

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Does it matter if it is only the fitting of the bits off the sprue provided in the rtr box or winding the wire on the armature or turning the drivers of your totally srcatch built loco it is all modelling. All the time people want to make things themselves there is a future. It may not be as we know things today but there is a future.

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Whilst I have completed coach kits, the step to full P4 standard mitchell/ finney locomotive kits, have to admit is beyond my skills however hard I try. Can I ask what is the typical commission fee to construct and paint a kit?

The only way to find that out is to contact one or more builders directly. It'll also depend on the kit, the livery you want, etc.

 

You might find it both less expensive long term to attend something like the Missenden Abbey Modellers weekends, a Hobby Holidays course or the like, to develop the skills with coaching help.

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Can I ask what is the typical commission fee to construct and paint a kit?

Well it sort of depends on the kit, the builder, and how far you want deviations from the basic kit - but start at around 1.5 times the cost of the complete kit for construction. Painting will be about 75% of the starting price and goes upwards rapidly with things like full lining.

 

You really have to think of it as someone's time. Even if you enjoy doing it 8hrs+ a day, it can be wearing with some kits. Some kits are not fun at all. Also take a long look at the number of parts on an etch, some loco kits easily run into hundreds, each one takes time to prepare and then solder in place. Then think how much you pay (or wish to be paid per hour). It might not be a living but for it to take priority over other life's pleasures, it has to pay and feel worthwhile.

 

Also every kit builder has a waiting list and a list of "priority" regular customers. If you are not "priority" then expect a 6-12 month lead time - if not then ask yourself why. Some are quicker than others and most are quicker at building a repeat (you learn the nuances of a particular kit - and where to shortcut the instructions)

 

Just a rough guide - others may have different ideas/experience.

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You might find it both less expensive long term to attend something like the Missenden Abbey Modellers weekends, a Hobby Holidays course or the like, to develop the skills with coaching help.

While very sound advice, there are just some people for who this aspect of the hobby holds no interest whatsoever. They just want to spend their valuable time building a layout - that may involve opening a RTR box or paying for someone to build a kit. The same can be said for building baseboards, or any specific aspect of the hobby.

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Does it matter if it is only the fitting of the bits off the sprue provided in the rtr box or winding the wire on the armature or turning the drivers of your totally srcatch built loco it is all modelling. All the time people want to make things themselves there is a future. It may not be as we know things today but there is a future.

Clive

 

In some cases it may well take a greater skill in finishing off a 3D printed loco. However what the OP is asking about is the future of kit building. Now I guess you can think in the future 3D printed items may replace kits. But I guess that there will be some items which will be better made out of other materials. For example I like the composite kits like the London Road ones, where they use a combination of materials (etched, cast brass & whitemetal and resin) so the best material is used for each part

 

We are not knocking 3D but unless they produce a kit of parts which have to be assembled then its outside the remit of the initial posting. However I guess there is a place in a composite kit for 3D printed parts where they are the most appropriate materials to use

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Hi John

 

I have made many diesel locomotives from plain sheets of plastic card. I have been told they are not scratch built because I used a comerical power bogie.

 

I have made models from deformed bits of white metal (yes MTK) I have also made locomotives from brass etcings, these were ment to be kits. After reworking them to make them look better with new bits made by me are they kits or were they parts aid to scratch building.

 

I have taken a plastic locomotive, got a hack saw to it and made it into another loco class, is this a conversion or a aid to scratchbuilding or when all cut into pieces a kit of parts.

 

I have not ventured down the 3D line yet, awaiting the the first model I want to appear. But I think that will involve some modelling.

 

We cannot define the different spheres of modelling too much, if a 3D model comes in 2 parts then it is a "modelling" kit.

 

There is still a future in modelling.

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A useful rule of thumb, perhaps, might be that, where x is an arbitrary number, then;

 

A RTR product requires x ~ < 1 swear words,

A 'conversion' requires Y > x > 1 swear words,

A 'kit' requires Z > Y swear words,

A 'scratch aid' requires A > Z swear words, and

A 'scratch built' object requires B > A swear words

 

to enable any project to be completed to a standard that is both arbitrary and satisfactory to the builder. Complexity of construction, and thus x through B, may be measured as an index of difficulty. Additional metrics may also apply where F is the number of exclamations of admiration one receives as a result of showing off said creation.

 

There may be a relationship between the perceived value of x through B and the actual values depending on how high F is...

 

Now to build a model (!) to illustrate the variables in this hobby and predict the amount of swearing going on as things become easier, more fragmented or just plain obscure...

 

Now you know why I used the variable 'F'....

 

Best,

Marcus

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At the Hawkinge toy fair today I bought a relatively poorly assembled Finecast Collett Goods. It needs to be taken apart and rebuilt, removing the flash and other deficiencies as I go. The end result will not be as good as the ready to run version. So why did I buy it (apart from it being cheap), and why will I spend my time on it? Because I enjoy building loco kits or bringing old kits back to life. In essence, it will give me pleasure; I bought it because I wanted to buy it, the only reason necessary. As long as there are modellers who feel the same, including modellers who venture into 3D, then kit building has a future. The same for scratchbuilding. 

 

I've got no problem at all with someone who sticks with ready to run (with the exception of the arrogant, 'I'm alright Jack' brigade who demand detail at any cost, and sod anyone who can't afford it). However, I do have a problem with being told that something that's not up to the latest out of China standards is rubbish. When I first joined RM Web, one rude and opinionated little man decided to have a go at me for defending K's kits. That isn't acceptable. ANYONE who models a railway or its constituent parts is a railway modeller, and he or she has the right to take enjoyment out of the hobby in any way or measure without being demeaned and insulted by other modellers.

 

Rant over, I had to smile at Clive Mortimore's post above. I too have made a few locos from deformed bits of white metal. MTK indeed. I still have them, including a Class 25/3 with an MTK drive unit inside (bought very cheaply from the North Norfolk Railway in the 1990s, presumably because no-one else was daft enough to want it). Who needs sound chips? That incredibly heavy thing grinds along making a quite Sulzerish noise.

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Hi John

 

I have made many diesel locomotives from plain sheets of plastic card. I have been told they are not scratch built because I used a comerical power bogie.

 

I have made models from deformed bits of white metal (yes MTK) I have also made locomotives from brass etcings, these were ment to be kits. After reworking them to make them look better with new bits made by me are they kits or were they parts to aid to scratch building.

 

I have taken a plastic locomotive, got a hack saw to it and made it into another loco class, is this a conversion or a aid to scratchbuilding or when all cut into pieces a kit of parts.

 

I have not ventured down the 3D line yet, awaiting the the first model I want to appear. But I think that will involve some modelling.

 

We cannot define the different spheres of modelling too much, if a 3D model comes in 2 parts them it is a "modelling" kit.

 

There is still a future in modelling.

 

 

Clive

 

I agree adding the finishing touches to a ready made but un-detailed model, is modelling. And there may well be required extensive skills to finish it off.

 

Kit bashing is another area where scratch building techniques are required. But when I carve off all the pre-moulded details off a Hornby Dublo R1 to add new handrails and other fittings is not kit building. OK you have scratch built a loco body and added a RTR chassis, remember many early whitemetal kits used RTR chassis and yes they were kits. I agree we may be splitting hairs, but from the little I know the main idea of 3D printing is to print off a model in 3D, not make a set of parts (kit) to self assemble into a model This is the definition of a kit  A set of all the parts needed to assemble something:an aircraft kit and if it fits the description then its a kit. Ironic thing is that Shapeways advert was in the top banner !!!  Having said this how many kits are complete with all the parts!!

 

I think the number of parts is also a red herring as many RTR locos come with additional parts, but are not kits

 

Now the future of kit building may well be in 3D printing and certainly must have a place with composite kits

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Hi,

 

I've been reading some of the comments regarding 3D printing with interest. I'm not sure that it would be fair to say that a well thought out 3D print could not be considered a kit. There are several small businesses offering quite nice one piece resin body kits that only require a few detailing pieces and a suitable chassis - personally I believe that 3D prints should fall into a similar category and I believe we will see an increase in interest in the coming years.

 

In case you hadn't guessed, I'm one of those who is very much in the 3D printing camp. I prefer the methods here and I'm in awe of anyone who can take some raw materials, or even an etched kit and turn it into one of the stunning models frequently seen on this forum.

 

With most things, a good 3D print depends on the design work, choice of materials and the 'builder's' ability to finish it off. Yes, most of the affordable 3D printing materials exhibit a degree of stepping but I usually find that this is a simple matter to remove (usually taking much less time than to fettle and build a white metal kit). To demonstrate that, in my opinion, we've already reached a stage where 3D printing is a viable alternative to more traditional modelling methods, I've attached some pictures of some of my in progress models. All are N gauge and use adapted commercial chassis (with the exception of the J50 which has a custom built chassis from N-Stars).

 

Is this the future of kit building? I doubt it but it will be another technique that the modeller can add to their arsenal....

 

Just my 2p...

I couldn't see a 2p there.....

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Perhaps we should start to look at modelling locomotives as a spectrum rather than breaking it down into well defined segments.

 

My writing this post and Tolstoy writing War and Peace both involve authors assembling words but there is really no comparison in the level of skill, dedication and work involved.

 

I have painted countryside backscenes but they are not much like a Constable painting. We are (or in his case were) both people with brushes and paints and a blank surface in front of them. Both carrying out the same "art" of landscape painting.

 

Adding a lamp to a RTR model and scratchbuilding a loco can both be considered modelling but they are at quite opposite ends of the scale in terms of the skills involved and the amount of satisfaction they will probably give to the builder.

 

Using 3D printing is another way to get a loco. It is, to me, somewhere on the scale between modifying a RTR model and building a more traditional kit. At least with a 3D printed model, the accuracy of the main components is down to the skill of the designer, rather than the builder. With a conventional kit, all the components may be the right size and shape and it is still possible for the builder to end up with a dogs dinner with out of square cabs and sloping horizontals.

 

So fitting handrails and other details to a one part body print, or a resin casting made from a 3D print, is just as much kitbuilding as some early whitemetal kits, that had about 6 components with all the "details" cast on.

 

Assembling a mainly one part 3D kit is at the opposite end of a spectrum to, say, building a Finney/Mitchell kit but it is still a kit, albeit one that is relatively simple and requires less skill and work to complete it.

 

The main skill in getting a good 3D model is in the design stage, sitting at a computer. That is a different skill altogether, requiring the ability to read drawings and to work in CAD. Great skills in their own right but not directly model making skills, they are design skills. You can sit at a computer keyboard all day long creating superb CAD drawings but at the end of that day, all you have created is a file on a computer, which exists in cyber land but you can't pick it up and run it on your layout (unless you are into the very clever railway simulations now available). 

 

My greatest pleasure from the hobby, apart from the friendships I have made and the great people I meet in the hobby, is in developing my own skills and using my hands, eyes and brain, sometime all together at the same time. I get more fun out of hacking a poor kit around until it looks like what it is supposed to be than I ever do from buying a highly accurate RTR model.

 

I have enough bad kits stashed away to keep me happy for many years, so for me, the future of kit building is ensured, as long as the hands, eyes and brain allow me to continue!

 

Tony

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Hi Tony

 

I agree.

 

You mention the main skill of a 3D printed model is the skills of the designer, surley this applies to all model kits. A poorly drawn etch kit is no good, a badly made master for a cast kit is equally as useless and the amount of work some people have to put inrto a RTR model to get it right speaks well of the desinger. As for marking out plastic card to find the bit I have just cut is too big or too small.....well I blame my ruler. :no:

 

There are different types of skills needed to reach the end result, fun in making the model and fun in running it. We should embrace all these skills be it on a computer screen or with a saw and file. We should praise those who have any of these skills, learn from people with skills we do not have and encourage others to have ago. :locomotive: :locomotive:

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MTK, there's a blast from the past, probably one that anybody who built their "kits" would rather not be reminded of!!

 

I once heard a joke that when it came time for the funeral of the owner of MTK (I forget his name), it was widely noted  that the coffin was cast in whitemetal, but the fact that the lid did not fit the rest came as no surprise.

 

Chris

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I once heard a joke that when it came time for the funeral of the owner of MTK (I forget his name), it was widely noted  that the coffin was cast in whitemetal, but the fact that the lid did not fit the rest came as no surprise.

 

Chris

 

The Late Colin Massingham.

 

He would actually have appreciated the joke as that was the sense of humour he had.  I was by his stand at a show once when an irate customer came up demanding a refund on a DMU kit.  Colin obliged with the added remark "and I thought that was one of our better ones"!  

 

Actually though you could make good models out of them.  His 4mm Class 47 kit [although a dog] was really the only route to a reasonable 47 back in the 1970s.  Some of his Mk.1 coach kits were also pretty good for their time.  He had his moments - most were pretty bad but just a few were more than OK.

 

David Parkins

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The Late Colin Massingham.

 

He would actually have appreciated the joke as that was the sense of humour he had.  I was by his stand at a show once when an irate customer came up demanding a refund on a DMU kit.  Colin obliged with the added remark "and I thought that was one of our better ones"!  

 

Actually though you could make good models out of them.  His 4mm Class 47 kit [although a dog] was really the only route to a reasonable 47 back in the 1970s.  Some of his Mk.1 coach kits were also pretty good for their time.  He had his moments - most were pretty bad but just a few were more than OK.

 

David Parkins

He later re-branded some of his range as El Crappo Kits.

Dave.

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