The future of loco kit building

[queensquare]

When I first started building models for people a good friend and well known professional modeller said that  90% of potential customers would be shocked at how much having a loco (or anything else) built would cost. The most expensive bit is time. I charge more than minimum wage but an awful lot less than I earned in my previous profession. If you want to know how much a kit would cost to have built think about how many hours it would take multiplied by a sensible hourly rate.

Like John, I'm booked about nine months ahead.

 

Jerry

[Thane of Fife]

I hate to think how many hours I spend in building a kit.

If I were doing it as a profession, I would have to charge less than the minimum hourly rate.

However, I do it for enjoyment, and in one way, the more hours that I spend on a kit, the more enjoyment that I get.

I recently bought an assembled kit to modify and repaint (for a price less that a new kit without wheels, motor, etc). When I put the model into the stripping bath, I found that it only had one coat of paint, with no primer. The kit was very well built, but I imagine that the single coat of paint was to speed up the construction.

The model now has a new cab, and a new tender. It will shortly be resprayed with primer and probably two top coats, before transfers are added, and finally varnished.

 

Thane of fife

[Horsetan]

....The most expensive bit is time.....

 

..as anyone who has ever instructed a litigation Solicitor (or paid for Counsel) will confirm.....

[queensquare]

..as anyone who has ever instructed a litigation Solicitor (or paid for Counsel) will confirm.....

I'm considerably cheaper than that mind ......:-)))

 

Jerry

[Kenton]

 

..as anyone who has ever instructed a litigation Solicitor (or paid for Counsel) will confirm.....

If a kitbuilder charged those sort of rates they could retire and get on with that layout of their dreams

[Horsetan]

 

If a kitbuilder charged those sort of rates they could retire and get on with that layout of their dreams

 

I believe there is at least one who does...

[CKPR]

So what are the best and the worst kits that we have collectively tackled?

 

My vote for the best would have to go to a Judith Edge LMS Jackshaft drive shunter. It was the first time that I have ever built a kit and not had to alter a single part. Around 20 hours of fairly hectic modelling to complete it to a deadline. If anything had gone wrong, my friend wouldn't have got his birthday pressie in time. But it didn't!

 

The worst...... several candidates but for an etch, the already mentioned Jidenco Claughton and for a cast kit, the abominable McGowan GCR Atlantic. There are a small number of parts that can be used with modification and the chimney is pretty close. everything else is only good for chucking out or using as a guide as to how not to make the replacement bits. Still unfinished but one day I will beat the sodding thing........

 

Tony

Best kit  - The PC LNWR carriage truck

Worst kits - probably the Ks LNWR Coal Tank, of which I ended up using only the smokebox and cab roof (to be fair, it was an Autocom casting) and the MTK (oh yes, them again) Cl 17 Clayton in w/m and the Peter K FR / Cambrian "Sharpie "0-6-0 in etched brass(I recall this was used by Iain Rice in one of his articles as an example  of just poor etched kits could be !)

 

My kit-built engines are mostly from the fair to middling Millholme kits for the FR D5 and M&CR 0-6-0s and the surprisingly good McGowen FR L2  0-6-2t (now available from SEF)

[Arthur]

The K's Coal Tank was my first ever kit, built around 1980. It wasn't a bad kit as I recall, reasonable castings which fitted well enough. I guess that by Autocom days the moulds were rather worn.

[hayfield]

Best kit  - The PC LNWR carriage truck

Worst kits - probably the Ks LNWR Coal Tank, of which I ended up using only the smokebox and cab roof (to be fair, it was an Autocom casting) and the MTK (oh yes, them again) Cl 17 Clayton in w/m and the Peter K FR / Cambrian "Sharpie "0-6-0 in etched brass(I recall this was used by Iain Rice in one of his articles as an example  of just poor etched kits could be !)

 

My kit-built engines are mostly from the fair to middling Millholme kits for the FR D5 and M&CR 0-6-0s and the surprisingly good McGowen FR L2  0-6-2t (now available from SEF)

 

 

I have a K's one in my pile to build,  always had the impression that Nucast improved the kits. The only Nucast kit (B1) I bought I sold on without building

 

The K's Coal Tank was my first ever kit, built around 1980. It wasn't a bad kit as I recall, reasonable castings which fitted well enough. I guess that by Autocom days the moulds were rather worn.

 

 

My K's lit looks to be OK, but is an older one (unbuilt) as its a non blister pack era. I was able to buy a Nucast chassis side frames which are far superior to the K's ones. Normally K's castings were quite good, suffered with whitemetal motion parts which other manafacturers used as well, and later style wheels and motors were not as good as the early ones.

 

I have 2 McGowan kits with whitemetal side-frames and unlike Wills cast ones which had brass bearings cast in them. They are un-useable

[Kenton]

OK I'll add mine:

 

Best: The last kit I built without any complications or additional/fabricated parts.

 

Worst: The last kit I didn't build.

 

Some kits - and happily most modern ones go together just like a kit of parts should - and for that I am thankful.

 

AFAIC the rest cannot be called kits!

 

and although I can often find fault with most kits (usually in the instructions and build sequence) most "faults" can be resolved or worked around with the aid of experience.

[84A]

I personally have a number of loco kits waiting to be built, but just finding the time to do them stops me having a real go. I've built a number of coach, wagon and scenic kits in the past, and own kit built locos that i've bought over the years from friends or family. One loco I havent started is a K1, and my initial thought when Hornby annouced their products for the coming year was to sell it and reclaim some money back to put to an RTR version. However, having thought about it, the model is still in my collection. My personal opinion is that kitbuilt models offer a sense of individuality that cannot be bought over the counter. I find that use of white metal and brass provides a sense of realism that just isn't there with Hornby/Bachmann locos - surely capturing the real thing as much as possible is the aim of the game? Whilst I agree that certain RTR produced models are works of art, I find (for example) when lining a Bachmann City up against a NuCast Duke kit I have, i'd take the Duke. Admittedly, the model hasn't just been thrown together, having been built by someone who has put a lot of effort into it with a decent motor/gearbox set up, but I prefer it to the Bachmann offering. Not only will it pull more (much more!) on inclines, for me it captures what the real thing should look like. Also, I like the fact that it is my model - i'm not going to go to an exhibition and see the same thing on about half a dozen layouts.

 

For me, it seems that the longer you are prepared to spend on a kit, the better the end result will be - probably the reason why I havent started any yet, but also the reason why I wont just sell all kit models and buy RTR. I dont appear to be alone in this either - the kit built market is very much alive on eBay, even for models that have been mass produced at some point.

[EHertsGER]

Is it just me or is there a preponderance of LNER prototypes falling into the 'worst kit' category? What did the LNER (Gresley et al) do to make kit design so difficult?

[Thane of Fife]

Posted Today, 03:40

Is it just me or is there a preponderance of LNER prototypes falling into the 'worst kit' category? What did the LNER (Gresley et al) do to make kit design so difficult?

Edited by EHertsGER, Today, 03:41 

 

I personally am a LNER fan, and so build LNER prototypes. The LNER never had the money to replace old classes that were still capable of useful work, so there were more types of LNER locos than other companies of the time. 

Gresley (and others) did not build to suit us modellers. The P2 chassis is a prime example. It is only just possible to build a chassis without the driving wheel flanges touching. 

 

Thane of fife

[hayfield]

Wills and SEF made/make some very good ones, DJH are excellent and K's could be built. Jedinco did everything and I don't remember MTK making LNER stock !!

 

In the bad old days of larger flanges you just used smaller wheels

[jwealleans]

 

I don't remember MTK making LNER stock !!

Oh, but they did, John... photo to follow.

[hayfield]

Jonathan

 

Now that would have been a difficult loco to build!!. Did the lid go back on the box?

[Horsetan]

Aaarrrgghhhh MTK Steamcast Aaaarrrggghhh

[Thane of Fife]

Hayfield said: In the bad old days of larger flanges you just used smaller wheels

 

That's how I built a Kays P2, I tried to replace the Kays wheels (which just fitted) with Romford 24mm wheels, and the flanges overlapped so I then fitted 23mm wheels which never did look right. It now runs on Markits wheels. 

 

Thane of fife

[ArthurK]

MTK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I bought two LNER coaches. A steel full brake and another I forget which. The latter was impossible to build. The coach body was ready formed (good you say?). However the lowest beading on the coach side was underneath the coach bottom and quite impossible to correct. After a feeble attempt to correct it went straight into the bin! The full brake was equally bad but I was able to remove the sides for possible reuse later. Never did. They were disposed of on the club sales stand.

 

ArthurK

[jwealleans]

Buffet Car, Arthur?  I'll put a photo up when the wife gets herself off the other computer.  You're quite right about the bottom beading, though.

 

... and here it is:

 

 

Probably destined for a club stand in the future. Life's too short.

[hayfield]

My first coach kit was a Westfield (thats wrong and I have a mind block) and I think they pre-date MTK. Off topic as its a thread on locos, first kit a K's Dean Goods

 

Edit Westdale coach, but they were copies of earlier  Exley build style

[Coach bogie]

Now F1 is over and Jenson didn’t quite make it, I have had time to read through this thread. My thoughts on the future of kit building is the over reliance on the past to fill in the gaps of today. For the engines I want, there is little/no choice but to consider historic kits that are from a technological world forty+ years old.

I have many built many and still have some unbuilt K’s kits. Merits have been discussed many times on this forum but for some prototypes there is no choice but to source these old kits, some of which are as old as me. Below is the K’s GWR Beyer. It has not been produced by anyone since the demise of K’s/Nucast. These kits had the benefit of being reasonably priced, straight forward and, as can be seen, easily modified into other engines. The GWR rebuilt some Beyer’s as Panniers, and I followed suit with spare castings that were readily available.

 

To put things in perspective, when I bought these I was driving this.

 

And the red boxes Hattons shifted had a K’s logo on.

 

Reading through comparisons are being made in an era where, unless you are on your way to a Sweeney/Life on Mars convention, we can now all drive electric and hybrid cars. Different worlds.

 

Here is a Jidenco curved frame Bulldog. At the time it was the only game in town. Yes it was a pig to build, Yes I spent far too long trying to get it to look like a Bulldog,  but Finney was yet to enter the market and rtr was unlikely to go near it.  Would I buy one now  NO. Should Falcon bring it back NO (in my opinion). And will engines like the Jidenco/Falcon 3521 ever be a candidate for rtr? Doubtful.

 

Another area I have brought up before is adhesion. The 28xx is a particular favourite of mine and I was bitterly disappointed with the lack of pulling power. I had an unbuilt K’s 28xx, the Hornby was sold and I built the kit. It hauls the length of trains I want to run and looks as good as modern high detailed models. In my experience the kit builds have much better pulling power.

 

And finally, personal satisfaction. I never really considered this in the early days as I just wanted engines I could not buy off the shelf. Satisfaction certainly grew with modifying kits to versions/one offs that are highly unlikely to be covered by the main manufacturers. Below is a Nucast Hall. In my opinion no rtr (or other kit) has come near it in terms of look/accuracy. The Bachmann Hall came and went. A second unused Bachmann will be sold on when I get chance. This one has been modified to the prototype Saint Martin by reducing the boiler height and a few other subtle changes. Again, I cannot see Hornby/Bachmann going to the trouble of a new tooling for a one off. This did give me satisfaction, especially as it set of with ten heavy kit built coaches with which the Bachmann just sits and spins.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Edit as images failed

[EHertsGER]

Now F1 is over and Jenson didn’t quite make it, I have had time to read through this thread. My thoughts on the future of kit building is the over reliance on the past to fill in the gaps of today. For the engines I want, there is little/no choice but to consider historic kits that are from a technological world forty+ years old.

I have many built many and still have some unbuilt K’s kits. Merits have been discussed many times on this forum but for some prototypes there is no choice but to source these old kits, some of which are as old as me. Below is the K’s GWR Beyer. It has not been produced by anyone since the demise of K’s/Nucast. These kits had the benefit of being reasonably priced, straight forward and, as can be seen, easily modified into other engines. The GWR rebuilt some Beyer’s as Panniers, and I followed suit with spare castings that were readily available.

IMG_1648.JPG

 

To put things in perspective, when I bought these I was driving this.

Cortina MKIII001.jpg

 

And the red boxes Hattons shifted had a K’s logo on.

Cortina MKIII002.jpg

 

Reading through comparisons are being made in an era where, unless you are on your way to a Sweeney/Life on Mars convention, we can now all drive electric and hybrid cars. Different worlds.

 

Here is a Jidenco curved frame Bulldog. At the time it was the only game in town. Yes it was a pig to build, Yes I spent far too long trying to get it to look like a Bulldog, but Finney was yet to enter the market and rtr was unlikely to go near it. Would I buy one now NO. Should Falcon bring it back NO (in my opinion). And will engines like the Jidenco/Falcon 3521 ever be a candidate for rtr? Doubtful.

IMG_1656.JPG IMG_1657.JPG

 

Another area I have brought up before is adhesion. The 28xx is a particular favourite of mine and I was bitterly disappointed with the lack of pulling power. I had an unbuilt K’s 28xx, the Hornby was sold and I built the kit. It hauls the length of trains I want to run and looks as good as modern high detailed models. In my experience the kit builds have much better pulling power.

IMG_1655.JPG

 

And finally, personal satisfaction. I never really considered this in the early days as I just wanted engines I could not buy off the shelf. Satisfaction certainly grew with modifying kits to versions/one offs that are highly unlikely to be covered by the main manufacturers. Below is a Nucast Hall. In my opinion no rtr (or other kit) has come near it in terms of look/accuracy. The Bachmann Hall came and went. A second unused Bachmann will be sold on when I get chance. This one has been modified to the prototype Saint Martin by reducing the boiler height and a few other subtle changes. Again, I cannot see Hornby/Bachmann going to the trouble of a new tooling for a one off. This did give me satisfaction, especially as it set of with ten heavy kit built coaches with which the Bachmann just sits and spins.

IMG_1644.JPG

 

Just my thoughts

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Edit as images failed

Sweeney/Life on Mars...? LPs on the turntable, reel to reel recordings of Radio Caroline...marmite for tea...twenty year old car in the driveway (OK, It's not a Cortina, but you don't get many of those in New Jersey - though we do have a yellow three wheeled Reliant Van that putters about locally. No kidding.) and vintage motorcycle in the garage. Welcome to my world! I think, however, it is rather like my hankering for Blue diesels (see another post) in that I am so far away from what is (modern UK) and spend a bit too much time in a delirious state of what was (the UK I left behind) as a result. I don't think it's nostalgia, it's what I was doing way back then, just as building those kits was what we were all doing way back then. I wonder if those coming new to the hobby, regardless of age, look at the need for 'missing' locos the way we did - go and build a kit. With the ease of RTR do they close their eyes and pray, reach for the phone and commission a build, give up and live with what they have or...well, a poll of those entering the hobby in the last five years would be interesting.

 

So, newcomers, (and I had to get this one in...) 'answers on a postcard, please..' (and when I was at Uni I worked at the sorting office that handled the 'Radio One Offers' postcards...'

 

TTFN

best,

Marcus

[Smiffy2]

I'm a newcomer in a way, yet I dabbled in O 16.5 a long time ago, so my railway kitbuilding is restricted to Peco white metal and plastic, some etched brass carriages and a scratch built 0-6-0 based on an IoM loco. And some wagons. I've never been a layout builder. At one time I considered making some O gauge brass kits as static models, but couldn't justify the cost.

 

Wherever possible I have adapted r-t-r rather than scratchbuild. That goes back to some of my exploits as a kid which I've mentioned, essentially repainting and decalling to backdate r-t-r stuff and Kitmaster kits.  I'm happy cutting and soldering brass, bashing in rivets and so on, but not confident about soldering white metal. I've done a lot of stuff in plastikard and I'm just setting out to make some SR containers to go on Dapol Conflats, possibly as masters for resin casting. I've done some casting (starting with the disastrous attempt to weight a Kitmaster Truro with molten lead when I was about 10) in white metal, but that was largely figures. I've cast some wall sections for 54mm figures in plaster from rubber moulds. How hard can it be?

 

So when Great British Locomotives came along I was in my element. Static models are fine by me, cheap so that I can make alternative versions (an early Schools and a late CoT are on my shelf, an A3 is slowly going into wartime black and something may happen to Mallard, or one of them. Winston Churchill will become a West Country and there will be versions of the T9 with and without cross-tube boilers. The N may become an N1.)

 

I've just repainted a Hornby E2 in plain black with new handrails and I'm debating buying an Easy Liner lining pen. Another E2 is on its way and will have the elongated tanks fitted in plastikard, and a coat of black paint. I've acquired an airbrush and I love it.

 

So that's what I've been doing. I think I'm an example of why you can't categorise!

Oh, and I've got an E4 on pre-order...

[John_Hughes]

Ah, but which one?

 

Well, the 2014 one at the moment! A couple of possible commissions didn't appear: I managed to dodge the Leek and Manifold Tank, which would have been interesting (perhaps in more than one way) but there's a London Road Models Coal Tank in the list (BR livery, thankfully), a High Level 03 chassis, a chassis for the Austerity J94 and some others for later. Ooh, and a Canadian Pacific D4g ten-wheeler, which I'm really looking forward to.

 

Just polished off a complete rebuild of an ancient K's Terrier (I seem to see quite a few of these, for some reason!) and as always with these the interesting stuff was preventing the coupling rods clouting both the cab steps and the brake rodding; the original K's wheels (long since gone the way of all flesh) just managed to avoid the former, and solved the latter by not having any brakes; but even the correct Gibson wheels with their small crank throw come within a whisker of making illicit contact!

 

Lovely engines, though - perhaps my all-time tank-engine favourite. We could do with a really good modern kit for them, as the Hornby effort just doesn't cut the mustard. That might cut down my workload, though!