Chris Higgs Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 So how much are going to pay for this then, and not do file sharing as well because you and your friends are too mean to all pay, or are you expecting somebody to make pittance so you can have your cheap engine etc. It will take many hours to do an engine of skilled time at say at least £25.00 per hour for a skilled computer operator to do it. I just wonder how many people are going to own the printer capable of this. Surely simpler to put it up on Shapeways (or et al) and people print it from there. Oh wait, that's what people already do... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 So how much are going to pay for this then, and not do file sharing as well because you and your friends are too mean to all pay, or are you expecting somebody to make pittance so you can have your cheap engine etc. It will take many hours to do an engine of skilled time at say at least £25.00 per hour for a skilled computer operator to do it. If/when home 3-D printing of commercial designs takes off, I'd expect there to be some kind of digital rights protection to ensure that your printer can only print the design once for each purchase made. It's probably one of the simpler technical challenges which need overcoming before 3D printing takes off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I enjoy building kits and my favourite is buying poorly made lash ups on ebay for as small fiscal outlay as possible and trying to get them into a passable condition. But if a R-T-R Loco gets released that I am after I am more than happy to purchase and save me the job of construction ! If I have a kit of a new R-T-R release it will still get built. Don't know about anyone else but I am never completely happy with anything I make ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If/when home 3-D printing of commercial designs takes off, I'd expect there to be some kind of digital rights protection to ensure that your printer can only print the design once for each purchase made. It's probably one of the simpler technical challenges which need overcoming before 3D printing takes off. technically it could be done today. but there is no incentive for a printer company to do and no incentive for the buyer to buy it. which more then likely means that high quality 3D designs will be bureau printed , rather like today and be retained under the control of the designer and author. I see little future for home 3D printing in that regard. ( i.e. the low cost production of someone else's work ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 There's a lot in this thread, and I haven't read all 57 pages of it, so apologies if I'm repeating things that have already been said. Seems to me that there are three things to be considered: 1) the effort of research, design and mastering that goes to create a kit; 2) the manufacture of the components of the kit; and, 3) building a kit. Assume for a moment that various software-managed production processes will advance to the point where the second of these becomes both simple and of high quality (I don't count current 3D printing as "high quality", and I think a few more materials need to come into play). Assume also that every large town will have a couple of "manufacturing bureaus", containing a whole stack of different software-controlled "makers" - lathes, printers, moulders, mills etc. The design files will be hosted on some server goodness only knows where, and you will command a set of parts to design XYZ, to be turned-out at your nearest "makery", paying to use said file, unless it is registered to you. The effort that goes into (1) for an etched kit, for instance, could easily be redeployed to design for whatever production processes and materials are used in (2). Added to which, kit-designers will increasingly find using "digital design processes" much more ordinary, natural to them, than breaking out the ruler and drafting pen - my guess is that they already do. The designers will upload their files to the library. The kits that result could be across a whole range of styles from what I call "scratch building in a box" (very basic shapes formed/cut from material, but lots and lots of work left to do) to something approaching the old CKD versions of r-t-r models, which would have different appeals to different people. This implies a blurring of the lines between "kit" and "r-t-r" in some cases, because "r-t-r" is nothing more than a very well designed kit, assembled by other people and/or robots. It is possible to imagine "open" libraries of parts, which can be drawn upon to be assembled in different combination to create, with the addition of some new parts to the library, kits representing different prototypes. In short, my personal expectation is that kits won't disappear, but the way they are produced will continue to change, and the form of what is produced will continue to change. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I enjoy building kits and my favourite is buying poorly made lash ups on ebay for as small fiscal outlay as possible and trying to get them into a passable condition. But if a R-T-R Loco gets released that I am after I am more than happy to purchase and save me the job of construction ! If I have a kit of a new R-T-R release it will still get built. Don't know about anyone else but I am never completely happy with anything I make ! Lofty Totally agree with the pleasure obtained by buying an old kit built loco and making something out of it. It could be as simple as a quick tidy up Added detailing Re-painting Or dismantling and re-build With Southeastern Finecast willing to sell spares, rebuilding old Wills kits is easy as parts are readily available, their etched chassis are excellent and improve a well made model on a RTR chassis no end This is also a very cost effective way of buying parts, with Markit wheels costing £5+ each, motors £15 at worst a badly made kit could yield £50+ worth parts On the other hand I just bought a Peco/Branchlines un-made Hunslet kit for 2/3rds of the RRP. Also bought a K's 55xx and a Wills Collet goods (no tender), both have Romford wheels with the Collet Goods having both a re-wheeled Jinty chassis and an older cast Wills chassis, there is also an old Triang TT chassis block and motor. All for just under £31. I do have a spare whitemetal tender Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 ... Assume also that every large town will have a couple of "manufacturing bureaus", containing a whole stack of different software-controlled "makers" - lathes, printers, moulders, mills etc. ... Somewhat like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Guy Very much indeed like that! However, my cod-futurology foresees "Makeries" being commercial enterprises, rather than NFP-bodies, because my guess is that most potential users will simply want the components that a "Makery" could provide, rather than the "deep immersion" of fiddling around with setting materials on cutting-beds etc. Right now, anyone can easily mail-order a little bag of 16BA screws; what I envisage is mail-ordering, or popping down to the "Makery" to collect, a "bespoke thingummy" that I designed on my iPAd, while loafing on the sofa, and a few other "bespoke thingummies" that other people designed similarly, and for which I have paid the design-use-fee. This collection of "thingummies", plus a bag of 16BA screws, being the "kit", which I will assemble over the next few evenings. Real pity that I live just that bit too far from Cambridge to justify joining Makespace! Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Try: https://www.shapeways.com https://i.materialise.com http://www.sculpteo.com/en/ https://www.ponoko.com ...and lots of smaller local companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 BB Thanks. I was aware of 3D printing and very-thin-sheet cutting services (actually, I can see a place that offers both, if I turn round and look out of the window); what I'm hoping is that "Makeries" will also offer easily accessible CNC milling, drilling, and turning; cutting of thicker sheets, including plywood and metals; maybe etching; maybe moulding etc. At the moment, services for all of these things are obtainable, but they seem to be aimed at the professional rather than the amateur, and, from what I can see, one has to "shop around", because providers specialise in one area, rather than offering capability for a range of services as a "one stop shop". Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Does 'Makery' = 'Workshop' or 'Manufacturer'. If so why invent a new word, particularly as I sounds as though it has been invented by a six year old. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 What you express Kevin is a pipedream, but it sounds good to me too. Providers usually offer within their expertise, or at least knowledge, base. The techniques you describe are numerous and varied. A CNC operator may have some limited experience of moulds and not know the first thing about etching, for example. The idea of having additive (read 3D print) subtractive (CNC mill/turn) and measurement processes in one machine are being worked on apace in the professional space. The aim would be a high specification net part with quality built in throughout without human intervention. It's a long way from the maker space though. Theres a recent article about this on Develop 3D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Penrith Beacon It doesn't quite = either as we understand them now, hence using a new word. I'm glad you think it sounds as if it was invented by a six year old, because that probably means that it will catch on. You might well be hearing it everywhere next month. On the other hand, I doubt that omitting question marks from sentences will catch on, because it creates a little too much ambiguity. Rich I did say it was cod-futurology ;-) Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drgj Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Building something yourself can be a satisfying experience and I think you treasure things more when a lot of your own work has gone into it. Also, a kit built loco, especially one made of sheet brass, still looks different to an rtr even when painted. It has an engineered quality about it. Having said that I also like the instant "fix" available in buying a ready to run model! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Building something yourself can be a satisfying experience and I think you treasure things more when a lot of your own work has gone into it. Also, a kit built loco, especially one made of sheet brass, still looks different to an rtr even when painted. It has an engineered quality about it. Having said that I also like the instant "fix" available in buying a ready to run model! Dave I can certainly echo the sentiment above, re a loco built from sheet brass. It's probably a function of the fact that sheet brass is so much thinner than an equivalent model made in plastic or white metal. I have been lucky enough to test build quite a number of etched brass and nickel silver kits, from the pre-production etches, and they have all been a joy to build, even if the lack of instructions and some initial problems do occasionally pose a challenge. I started building etched kits only about five years ago and, I guess, have now built around twenty, very much learning as I have gone along. The photo, below, is the third of these LNER A6's I have built - this one not yet completed - from the production run, having also test built the initial set of etches. There is just something about brass and nickel silver, especially in the unpainted state. With only ever ten locomotives in the class and with a very limited geography, then it's unlikely that any r-t-r manufacturer would produce a model of one of these very elegant tank locos! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Building something yourself can be a satisfying experience and I think you treasure things more when a lot of your own work has gone into it. Also, a kit built loco, especially one made of sheet brass, still looks different to an rtr even when painted. It has an engineered quality about it. Having said that I also like the instant "fix" available in buying a ready to run model! Dave Dave You are spot on with the satisfaction making something gives you, and certainly metal locos do look and feel better, though I do prefer composite material locos, brass for footplates cabs etc, whitemetal for fireboxes etc I can certainly echo the sentiment above, re a loco built from sheet brass. It's probably a function of the fact that sheet brass is so much thinner than an equivalent model made in plastic or white metal. I have been lucky enough to test build quite a number of etched brass and nickel silver kits, from the pre-production etches, and they have all been a joy to build, even if the lack of instructions and some initial problems do occasionally pose a challenge. I started building etched kits only about five years ago and, I guess, have now built around twenty, very much learning as I have gone along. The photo, below, is the third of these LNER A6's I have built - this one not yet completed - from the production run, having also test built the initial set of etches. There is just something about brass and nickel silver, especially in the unpainted state. With only ever ten locomotives in the class and with a very limited geography, then it's unlikely that any r-t-r manufacturer would produce a model of one of these very elegant tank locos! Cheers Mike Mike What a nice job, getting kits for free and building them, a super job you have made with the loco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Dave You are spot on with the satisfaction making something gives you, and certainly metal locos do look and feel better, though I do prefer composite material locos, brass for footplates cabs etc, whitemetal for fireboxes etc Mike What a nice job, getting kits for free and building them, a super job you have made with the loco Many thanks for the kind words. Yes I get the test etches for free but I do pay for any that I build from the production runs. The second etched kit that I ever built was a test build (an LNER Q5/2) and that one took me the best part of six months to get right; now they take perhaps three weeks. It really is a case of just having a go at it; that and being prepared to do something again (and again and again, sometimes) until it looks right!! If you look at the number of relatively recent entrants (the last five years, or so) producing etched kits, then the future, certainly short to medium term, looks bright and, at the moment, the future looks 'etched' though who knows where 3-d printing might go? Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 You are spot on with the satisfaction making something gives you, and certainly metal locos do look and feel better, though I do prefer composite material locos, brass for footplates cabs etc, whitemetal for fireboxes etc Anything but resin (it makes such a mess of the soldering iron) What a nice job, getting kits for free and building them, a super job you have made with the locoI think there can be a few downsides. It can actually be more rewarding to get paid for doing it. Though you do get to miss the children as they depart the workshop for a far flung paintshop and distant railway often never to be seen again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Anything but resin (it makes such a mess of the soldering iron) I think there can be a few downsides. It can actually be more rewarding to get paid for doing it. Though you do get to miss the children as they depart the workshop for a far flung paintshop and distant railway often never to be seen again. I'll go along with both comments above. I've actually done a couple of commission builds, for money, but dividing the price (which can be several hundred pounds) by the hours taken to do a thorough job leaves an hourly rate that ain't that good. I build for 4mm (mostly P4) whereas building 7mm kits, which commands much higher prices, is far more lucrative and not that much more difficult. The pricing precedent for 4mm hand built models is very much set by the r-t-r suppliers, plus the obvious premium for the model being hand built rather than mass produced. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 As a last comment on this, for now, there are interesting parallels in many other areas :- The Kindle and similar e-book readers were forecast to be the death of the printed book. Yet sales of books are now rising. Similarly, digitally stored and produced music, cd's, downloads, etc., should have presaged the death of the vinyl record, yet sales of those are also on the increase. Perhaps, when anything becomes so easily available and demands little or no participation (I'll refrain from using skill or aptitude) and is so intangible, then we naturally revert to something which, though more difficult, does require a much more active participation. I even hear that some kids are beginning to build Airfix model aircraft, again; this in preference to simply playing video games!! I'll leave this with another photo of one of the A6's, this the test build, as it hurries back to Hull through Hessle Haven on the down fast line, in the lengthening shadows and late sun of evening. That light really is sunlight!! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Mike, love the photo. I think you might be right with a small move by kids back to "traditional" toys. Lego, the ultimate in modelling materials, is one if not the most purchased toy now. My 12 year old boy enjoys his lego but as you mention he too enjoys the building Airfix style plane kits. There may be a small move as some kids will take on these and continue the modelling. Others will have the attention span of a goldfish! Which unfortunately is encouraged by so many electric devises. Ipods having access to Games and Youtube let alone console games which last all of 3minutes! I have seen my boy spend a long time building Legos and Airfix kits.... so may be he is one of the lucky ones with a family that encourage having a go and trying to build these things. OK he has seen me take 200hrs + building loco kits and other things for the railway. So he accepts that things take time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikks Posted October 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2015 As a last comment on this, for now, there are interesting parallels in many other areas :- The Kindle and similar e-book readers were forecast to be the death of the printed book. Yet sales of books are now rising. Similarly, digitally stored and produced music, cd's, downloads, etc., should have presaged the death of the vinyl record, yet sales of those are also on the increase. Perhaps, when anything becomes so easily available and demands little or no participation (I'll refrain from using skill or aptitude) and is so intangible, then we naturally revert to something which, though more difficult, does require a much more active participation. I even hear that some kids are beginning to build Airfix model aircraft, again; this in preference to simply playing video games!! I'll leave this with another photo of one of the A6's, this the test build, as it hurries back to Hull through Hessle Haven on the down fast line, in the lengthening shadows and late sun of evening. That light really is sunlight!! Cheers Mike Mike, That is simply stunning....the whole picture. I have never seen main line ballasting that is so convincing, I dips me lid to you Rgds........Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Mike, That is simply stunning....the whole picture. I have never seen main line ballasting that is so convincing, I dips me lid to you Rgds........Mike Mike, Many thanks for the comments. As I model in P4, all of my track is hand built and I use 1/16th Obechi sleepers, which I cut myself (I cut about 15,000 over about two months plus about two hundred feet of point sleepering) stained with various white spirit Colron wood dyes. I did write a posting, now a few years ago, as to how I did that ballasting but, basically, it is 'N' gauge granite ballast ('OO' is too coarse). Firstly, all of the ballasting was done before any rails were laid. Once the ballast is in place, and I do about ten sleepers at a time just using fingers to drop it in place, the ballast is misted with a plant mister just using water, this to eliminate the surface tension. Then a very dilute PVA solution is dribbled onto the ballast using an eye drop applicator. At this point, the granite ballast turns a very unprototypical shade of green!! Once dry and when all the ballast is fixed, I then painted the whole lot with a very diluted white emulsion (ordinary emulsion; I bought a sample pot) coloured with water colour paint down to a light grey. When this is dry I then 'flick' over the whole lot with various colours, again using the diluted white emulsion as the base and coloured with water colours; normally white, light brown, dark brown and dark grey. This gives the impression of individual stones being different colours. The beauty of using the white emulsion paint as the base is that once dry, the whole lot is then waterproof; the colours are sealed. Again, using this very dilute emulsion, then the stones actually colour but the ballast bed doesn't fill with paint; I don't finish up with an amorphous mass between the sleepers. This sounds like a very tortuous process but the painting of seven feet of four track main line, including the ballast between the turnouts (twenty eight feet of track) took a day from applying the light grey base colour to finishing off with the highlighting clours. I know this thread is about kit building, so apologies for drifting off thread, but you mentioned the ballast on here, so best to answer the query, on here. The picture below (the Q5/2, a week before its withdrawal and very much tired and weather worn; that first test build I ever did) perhaps shows the result of this ballast painting. I made the brickwork on the bridge and used the same painting techniques on that. Once again, many thanks for the kind words. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Mike, love the photo. I think you might be right with a small move by kids back to "traditional" toys. Lego, the ultimate in modelling materials, is one if not the most purchased toy now. My 12 year old boy enjoys his lego but as you mention he too enjoys the building Airfix style plane kits. There may be a small move as some kids will take on these and continue the modelling. Others will have the attention span of a goldfish! Which unfortunately is encouraged by so many electric devises. Ipods having access to Games and Youtube let alone console games which last all of 3minutes! I have seen my boy spend a long time building Legos and Airfix kits.... so may be he is one of the lucky ones with a family that encourage having a go and trying to build these things. OK he has seen me take 200hrs + building loco kits and other things for the railway. So he accepts that things take time! Last year, when recovering from illness, my lady partner bought me a Revell kit for the Lancaster; surely with the Spitfire, one of the most iconic aircraft ever made. So I had to do it justice; I hope I did. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHertsGER Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Last year, when recovering from illness, my lady partner bought me a Revell kit for the Lancaster; surely with the Spitfire, one of the most iconic aircraft ever made. So I had to do it justice; I hope I did. Cheers Mike Now that has hit it on the head for me; kitbuilding vs. scratchbuilding sometimes depends on the model you want, so you go after it as a kit that gives you the result you need or just build it yourself as it is a prototype you actually need for a project, so it is driven by the prototype. On the other hand, as with the Lancaster (and I am guessing here as I have no idea what somebody might be thinking or feeling from this distance) it would seem to me to be the pleasure of building it (OK, it is a beautiful, iconic aircraft too) the kit and being happy with the pleasure of building it as well as the end result. So, two separate motivations for this 'building' lark (apart from the money, mentioned above. I am trying to keep a level viewpoint here)? Need for the 'object' (prototype) vs. desire for the 'experience'? Best, Marcus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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