Bad advice on rail fares.

[Re6/6]

In the latest 'Rail' magazine, Barry Doe in his 'Fare Dealer' column has a headline "Be wary of booking sites and ill-informed staff". The article slammed the Trainline.com for wrong (high) pricing on tickets enquired about and purchased. Indeed he said "..my advice remains two-fold: never use the Trainline; and always check the price of a return before buying any singles"

 

He also wrote " I think the Trainline should be forced to have a warning, such as 'Beware, our charges mean you can always buy your tickets elsewhere' He also wrote about a load of anomalous and incorrect (higher) ticket enquiry quotes (too many to mention here). All pretty damning stuff. ....And it doesn't stop with these ticket booking sites who also charge card and booking fees, but with some of the TOCs. He quote a bad example from Virgin calling the info on one particular enquiry "disgraceful".

 

He concludes with "However, it does show that we all have to beware of poor websites, station staff who don't offer advice or refuse to sell correct tickets, and even Customer Services staff who have no idea of the rules. Isn't it disgraceful that our industry tolerates this?"

 

Currently there is a TV ad with passengers being shouted at by a 'guard' that they would've saved money on their ticket if they bought it with Trainline. ...not according to this article from someone who is a professional fares writer.

 

Strong stuff, but an informative and interesting read. 'With old fart retired railwayman hat on'... that sort of thing would never have been acceptable in my BR days.

[JohnR]

There are so many websites out there, I'd like to see Barry (or some other expert) do a comparison of the various websites - eg ease of use, ability to show best fares, alerts for when cheap fares are available, splitting tickets etc...

 

I am currently using redspottedhankey.com, which seems good, but who really knows?

[Raffles]

Remember this:

 

1. The Trainline do not have access to anything special - no one has.

2. All of the fares are set by the TOCs and the quotas for the Advance Purchase ones are set and reviewed by them as well.

3. All the seat reservations ( and therefore, the cheaper fares) come from one system/database.

 

The beauty of the system is that the prices quoted are available through any channel and at any outlet. Incidentally, the local ticket office has no booking fees or card charges...

[John_Miles]

It also often pays to book via an intermediate station. For example if travelling from Birmingham to Cardiff, it is cheaper to book Birmingham Cheltenham and then Cheltenham Cardiff. You need to pick a station which is served by more than one TOC or is relatively unpopular as the intermediate station.

[Raffles]

If you do that, make sure you are clear on how this affects your rights if you miss a connecting train, especially with Advance Purchase fares. Whilst the like of Martyn Lewis spout on about how much you can save, they don't often mention the pitfalls.

[royaloak]

Currently there is a TV ad with passengers being shouted at by a 'guard' that they would've saved money on their ticket if they bought it with Trainline.

Which states in the writing that pops up on the screen for a few seconds "compared to tickets bought on the day"

Thetrainline are comparing advanced fares (bought from them) with on the day tickets (bought at the station).

Apples and pears, apples and pears.

 

Thetrainline is about the most expensive way of buying THE SAME TYPE of ticket (by the time you add on thetrainlines booking fee, delivery fee etc).

 

Oh did you know "Thetrainline" is a virgin group company.

 

Sorry about the shouting.

 

edited for the pedantic.

[royaloak]

If you do that, make sure you are clear on how this affects your rights if you miss a connecting train, especially with Advance Purchase fares. Whilst the like of Martyn Lewis spout on about how much you can save, they don't often mention the pitfalls.

But with split tickets you usually stay on the same train so cannot miss a "connection", its just that the train needs to call at that station to make the split valid, you dont actually get off the train at the splitting station.

[Raffles]

You'd think, wouldn't you?

 

I took no pleasure in telling a chap that his late night connection wouldn't be honoured, probably resulting in a hefty taxi fare for him because he split his ticket. I asked him why he opted to do this for the last twenty miles or so - he said he thought he was saving money. Well he isn't now.

 

Some people will come up with all manner of convoluted options to save a few quid but don't like it when it backfires...

[melmerby]

 

 

Thetrainline is about the most expensive way of buying THE SAME TYPE of ticket.

 

 

I bought two tickets from the Trainline and then a few weeks later the same tickets from the TOC. The price was exactly the same, the difference: the TOC didn't add any extra charges (postage,booking fee etc.

 

Keith

[Bernard Lamb]

Remember this:

 

1. The Trainline do not have access to anything special - no one has.

2. All of the fares are set by the TOCs and the quotas for the Advance Purchase ones are set and reviewed by them as well.

3. All the seat reservations ( and therefore, the cheaper fares) come from one system/database.

 

The beauty of the system is that the prices quoted are available through any channel and at any outlet. Incidentally, the local ticket office has no booking fees or card charges...

 

Not quite true.

Various reincarnations of the outfit that runs trains on the ECML have given discounts from time to time.

The main problem that I find with the system is that you are forced to accept the choice of route and change of train points that the system decides upon.

There are often far better options available.

I have never "lost" a booking when buying from a TOC but have had bad experiences with The Train Line. Soon gave up using them when I discovered that there were other options available.

Even when using a ticket bought from the TOC I have had staff suggest changing at a different station to the one written on the ticket.

They have then given me a note to inform the train staff on the next train as to a valid reason why I should travel on a train other than the one I had booked on.

Again the various ECML companies have been excellent in getting me to my destination with the minimum amount of hassle.

The shambles during the summer when you could not book certain journies was a nightmare.

Some event in East London seemed to throw the whole system out of order.

Some ticket office staff seem to be excellent in offering routes that the computer does not suggest.

The fares might indeed be set, but that does not mean that they are the cheapest fares available.

By contrast to the main line railway system TfL has a superb set up that allows just about any permutation to suit the needs of the individual traveller.

Bernard

[Edwin_m]

The TOCs see online ticket sales as a means of reducing their costs (fewer booking office transactions) and increasing their revenue (another sales channel probably means more tickets sold) so are likely to sell at list price. East Midlands Trains even knocks £1 off the advertised price of their London advance tickets if sold via their own website, which like most of the TOCs booking sites is run by trainline under contract so works in very much the same way apart from a different appearance.

 

The third party resellers don't have these incentives to sell tickets, and I believe they are also on the lower rate of commission that applies to travel agents. Hence they will try to make some money by adding extra charges. Another advantage of booking via your local TOC website is that there is always the option of complaining at the ticket office if things go wrong (though it's possible they will just refer you to the helpline).

 

CrossCountry has realised that people hate changing at New Street and their publicity advertises alternatives at Derby, Cheltenham and Leamington. So why do the websites give you a change at New Street for journeys where one of the others is possible with no time penalty?

[lmsforever]

I use London Midland,s site for their services and find it easy to use and clear site layout helps,long distance I tend to buy national rail site as they again offer a good service.Have used Virgin,s site and no problems,Red Spotted Hankercheif is also good and you build up bonus points as well.Find B Doe a bit of a curious journalist in that his articles are all convoluteded and he has a fixation on the gold card ,also he has a downer on Chiltern mereley because they dont have first class not deserved at all.He claims to buy on the day and save money and always goes first class recently he derided bus pass users and suggested we should lose it because we have to much money ,I certainly dont take any notice of this person any more.

[Raffles]

Not quite true.

Various reincarnations of the outfit that runs trains on the ECML have given discounts from time to time.

GNER always had their own web sales system. The same could not be said of other TOCs.

 

Even when using a ticket bought from the TOC I have had staff suggest changing at a different station to the one written on the ticket.

You might find that the person you spoke to has the knowledge and experience to inform you better.

 

Some ticket office staff seem to be excellent in offering routes that the computer does not suggest.

I rest my case.

 

The fares might indeed be set, but that does not mean that they are the cheapest fares available.

Elaborate?

 

The third party resellers don't have these incentives to sell tickets, and I believe they are also on the lower rate of commission that applies to travel agents. Hence they will try to make some money by adding extra charges. Another advantage of booking via your local TOC website is that there is always the option of complaining at the ticket office if things go wrong (though it's possible they will just refer you to the helpline).

 

Which, as you suggested, is probably The Trainline anyway. It is worth pointing out, that with pre-booked tickets collected from self-service machines, the responsiblity only shifts to the company operating the machine once the tickets are printed. Up until that point, any problems muist be resolved by the people that sold you the tickets.

[DavidB-AU]

There are so many anomalies in the fare structure it's not possible for staff to know about all of them. For example look up a fare from Newton Abbott to Birmingham. National Rail says the cheapest Standard Class Advance fare is £63 if you're not fussed about the time you travel with most fares being £79. But look up Paignton to Birmingham and the cheapest fare is £32. Pick the right day and it can cost as little as £24... for First Class!

 

Cheers

David

[Gwiwer]

Train operator sites often have special discounts only available with that operator and usually only available online. There are numerous "cheapest fare finder" type sites but they do not have access to operator-specific special discounts for example the Southern south coast to London fares which are often available for around £4 (restrictions apply) against a walk-up fare of perhaps £35 (open - use any train; apples not compared directly with other apples).

 

I make a fair number of bookings for myself and manage enquiries from friends based upon my personal knowledge of the systems. Those bookings are made online and usually from Australia for UK travel.

 

I do not use thetrainline.com Some years ago i took issue with some of their requirements and quirks plus the fact that the fares I sought were often offered more cheaply elsewhere. I have no argument with Barry Doe but have found some of his previous writings in numerous journals to be abrasive and somewhat confrontational.

 

National Rail is the first place I look: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/farefinder/search

That link only offers single fares but in many cases two singles can be bought for less than a return.

Next stop is their Journey Planner which does offer the option to price a return: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/planjourney/search

Having then determined (if I did not already know) who might run the trains I propose to use I then go to their own web site and look for their own fares. Sometimes they are cheaper - sometimes not.

 

As a matter of course I also check every fare against what Southern would charge even if they are not the operator. I once found them offering Liverpool Street - Clacton for £4.50 as an example when the others all wanted more like £25. Guess who got the business?

 

Also handy to keep in your "favourites" are that nice chap in seat 61 http://www.seat61.com who offers world-wide advice as well, and http://www.splityourticket.co.uk for advice on the pros and cons of split-ticket journeys. The ruling on those is that if you travel with split tickets to obtain a cheaper fare then your train MUST stop at the station where the fare is split. Technically you are supposed to alight and re-board but that is never enforced! Note that split ticketing may require split seat reservations and there is no guarantee that you will be allocated the same seat for both / all legs of your journey.

[Coach bogie]

I book East Coast tickets on a weekly basis and thier own web site has always been the most economical way to book. They have 'web only'fares that I cannot match elsewhere.They also include all the Grand Central and Scotrail services.

 

Major bonus I, they run a booking points system that accumilate to free tickets

 

Major bonus II is the 'delay-repay' system. If they are more than 30 mins late (which they often are) then compensation is paid. (Record is 14 hours late, including being dumped at midnight onto a locked Dundee station to wait for the first Aberdeen train at 6am - got 4x free 1st class to anywhere on EC for that one)

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

Elaborate?

 

 

I don't know why you have an axe to grind and I do not realy want to waste my time getting involved but as it is raining and I can't go out here goes.

 

Watford Junction to Kew Gardens.

It is cheaper tp buy a ticket from North Watford and not use the first part.

The booking office staff at Watford Junction will offer you this option.

The computer will not.

 

The system running the ECML tickets will at times come up with a ticket to Hatfield from the north via London rather than change at Peterborough to FCC.

 

Then there is the classic situation between various local stations on London Midland WCML services where an off peak return is dearer than an any time return.

The computer will highlight this but who would expect it to be that way round and bother to ask the question.

Hemel Hempstead - Berkhamsted for example.

Probably others but these are examples that I have come across recently.

Bernard

[jonhall]

But most examples of the ticketing problems seem to be people (including railstaff) not understanding the fare system because it is monsterously complicated, or wanting to make an 'unusual' (perhaps counterintuitive is a better phrase) journey, rather than the journey that best obeys the compuers 'rules'.

 

The Traineline make their charges clear, I use a debit card so I don't pay the credit card fee, and last time I used them I used the collect from ticket machine option that worked really well so didn't pay postage. They do have a link that shows 'cheaper fares on slower routes may me available' and these seem to be offered. I'll use EastCoasts booking system quite often if it will give an extra pound of discount for their own fares, and I've used London Midland, and Chilterns booking systems to get special fares, so I've seen what most websites have to offer - as with almost everything else in life, if you know your way around there are bargains to be had.

 

I've also had some really good examples of railstaff knowing their job, a cleark at Burton sold me a Derbyshire Wayfarer and a Sheffield-York return as cheaper than the Burton-York return. SWT have a good phone support desk for their ticket offices, and once I had got passed the 'no I don't want a travelcard' and asked them to phone it, the clerk at Hampton Court sold me a Freedom of North Wales Rail Rover by following instructions relayed over the phone.

 

How an 'ordinary' member of the public manages I do wonder, but the online routing&ticketing probably does help.

 

Jon

[jonhall]

Watford Junction to Kew Gardens.

It is cheaper tp buy a ticket from North Watford and not use the first part.

The booking office staff at Watford Junction will offer you this option.

The computer will not.

 

 

I think that *might* actually be defrauding London Overground, who I think would share more of the ticket office revenue from sales of that route from Watford Junction, but wouldn't from North Watford.

 

Jon

[Xerces Fobe2]

I went to book a weekend return from High Wycombe to Stourbridge Jct for my partner a year or so ago on Trainline. con com and the fare came to @ £45 including booking fee and debit card fee, with a choice of @ 3 trains in each direction for the times I had selected. I then went to Chiltern Railways website and got the fare of £19.50 with a choice of 5 trains in each direction. Never again will i use Trainline.com!

 

XF

[Gwiwer]

the clerk at Hampton Court sold me a Freedom of North Wales Rail Rover by following instructions relayed over the phone.

 

That should be possible by using the manual supplied to all ticket offices and scanning the relevant bar-code. It should not need a phone call.

 

I find most booking office staff are very helpful when not under undue pressure and will ask appropriate questions if they think it may lead to the passenger paying less. I can't blame those same staff for not knowing every fare (it takes a massive computer database to do that) and neither can I blame them for simply issuing the requested ticket on demand when they are busy.

 

As an example the Southern staff at Victoria rarely see the end of the queue and are under constant pressure to minimise transaction time for each customer. In most cases they will simply issue the ticket requested on the assumption that it is for the next available train and (where available) by a direct route. Thus a request for a "ticket to Brighton" at 8am might be met with a terse "£24.60 please" rather than asking if the person intends to return and if so at what time and on which day. The ticket back might cost as much but a "Return to Brighton" issued at the same time would only be £27.80 not £49.20.

 

On a very rare occasion when I did find the ticket office with no queue the staff member there very helpfully suggested that if I had a smartphone or laptop with me, wasn't in a rush and cared to book online I could save something like 34% over the cheapest fare he could sell me. And I could collect the ticket from the machine after an hour or so. Service over and above the call of duty, I thought, and took him at his word. Some of the money I saved on the fare was duly invested in a pint while waiting for the cheaper fare to kick in and the machine to be able to issue the ticket

[cromptonnut]

SWMBO is coming back from Chichester this afternoon, Brixton is the most convenient station. Looked up singles prices/times at National Rail.

 

Chichester - Brixton via London Victoria £27.90

 

Chichester to London Victoria £15.90

London Victoria via Brixton £2.80

 

So how come it's a tenner cheaper for the same journey but with two tickets?

 

Of course it'll be cheaper for her as she only needs a ticket to boundary 2, plus the Gold Card discount... just interesting what a mess the ticketing options are.

[Guest Belgian]

You'd think, wouldn't you?

 

I took no pleasure in telling a chap that his late night connection wouldn't be honoured, probably resulting in a hefty taxi fare for him because he split his ticket. I asked him why he opted to do this for the last twenty miles or so - he said he thought he was saving money. Well he isn't now.

 

Some people will come up with all manner of convoluted options to save a few quid but don't like it when it backfires...

 

Would his connection have been honoured if he had bought a single ticket for the whole journey? (I'm sorry that I don't know the answer myself, as I have to travel by car since I can't afford rail tickets any more, so I don't understand the complexities).

[Fat Controller]

Would his connection have been honoured if he had bought a single ticket for the whole journey? (I'm sorry that I don't know the answer myself, as I have to travel by car since I can't afford rail tickets any more, so I don't understand the complexities).

Yes, I believe.

[Raffles]

Yes Belgian, it would have, and if the train had gone a taxi would have been provided as he had paid for a thorugh journey.