RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted November 6, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 6, 2012 Hello all The NGS is planning to produce a model of the GW Collett 57' BG. We are wavering between Diag K41 or K42. Obviously we'd like to maximise on the possible liveries, but I am no expert on the GWR. One example I am proposing is GW plain chocolate seen here: Is this accurate? Should it have mahogany droplights? Is it good for both K41 and K42? What other liveries are appropriate for these vehicles? cheers Ben A. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 6, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 6, 2012 There are photos of both types in the Russell books shewing the livery on these and very nice they look too.I assume they had mahogany droplights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Interesting! Gives me some ideas - making/modifiying RTR with sides is on my list and a single colour would be easier for a 1st painting attempt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 The K41 gives more options, the first ones dating from 1934 in Chocolate and cream liveries. The K42 are later vehicles (1937 onwards) and limit the liveries and options with original batches entering service in all over chocolate livery, though there were examples in BR departmental use until the 1980's.The K42 only appeared in Chocolate and cream post 1945 and not every coach was so treated. W272W, amongst many others, made it to all over rail blue and was in regular use in Newspaper and parcels trains until the late 1970's You may also wish to consider the K40 which has been discussed at length due to the additional TPO variations http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37586-collett-k40-passenger-brake-van-tpo-conversion/page__fromsearch__1 Mike Wiltshire 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Hi Ben please go with the earlier K41 option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) You may also wish to consider the K40 which has been discussed at length due to the additional TPO variations The K40 is an interesting and long-lived vehicle. However a decent conversion kit is available from TPM for N gauge, I have built a couple myself. Also the K40s were built more with cross-country use in mind whereas the K41/42s were definitely built for top-link duties. Also I am not aware of any K40s surviving into rail blue (I am prepared to be proved wrong on this point). Personally I think the K41 is the best choice as it was the most numerous and had a slightly wider range of liveries. Givent the similarity between the 2, I think that a K41 painted and branded as K42 would still satisfy most modellers if there turn out to be any livery variants that were unique to the K42. Edited November 7, 2012 by Karhedron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I would agree one may fit both types, but the K42 will not sell as well in fake choc and cream. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) K41/42s were definitely built for top-link duties. Not sure about the 'top link duties' They were built as replacements for life expired vehicles. Prior to the K41's appearing there were still significant numbers of Dean era 4, 6 wheel and 40ft bogie brakes in use that were life expired. It was a period of out with the old,with funds allocated to replacement rather than repair, which included parcels vehicles and even a totally new TPO vehicles to replace the clerestory vehicles. Many of the old vehicles werestill gas fitted and expensive to keep repairing. I agree that some vans were branded for specific passenger duties but a significant number of K41 vans were branded to dedicated routes rather than a particluar service that had them attched/reattched to various parcels and passenger trains to reach thier destination. Few crack expresses had full vans included. The K42 were deliberatley built to 1" narrower to allow them to work further north, whereas the 9ft wide K41's were not allowed on certain off system routes. A major advantage of the K41/2 is in there were so many of them. Despite a new design to K44 appearing in 1941 the K42's continued to be built until 1945. Good excuse to buy more than one. I am just please that a K38 Ocean mails van was not the preferred choice. I see so many of them on layouts (including mine) often in multiple and they only built 6! Nice choice Mike Wiltshire Edited November 7, 2012 by Coach bogie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I would agree one may fit both types, but the K42 will not sell as well in fake choc and cream. Not so much fake as the 1945 K42 batches appeared in Hawksworth GWR chocolate and cream. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Just to muddy the waters further, I believe that the narrower profile of the K42s gave them a wider route availability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I bit of digging has produced the following pictures. The Great Western Railway in the 1930s - Fraser/Geen/Scott Plate 126 show a mixed parcels train containing (among others): 2x K42 in brown K41 in brown The Great Western Railway in the 1930s Volume 2 - Geen/Scott Plate 259 shows a K41 in brown in mid-1937 - caption notes that the brown livery for vans was introduced a couple of years earlier Based on these, all-over brown seems a valid livery for both diagrams. Sadly I cannot determine running numbers but I will have another look and see if I can make out any route branding. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 The NGS is planning to produce a model of the GW Collett 57' BG. We are wavering between Diag K41 or K42. I am confused. December's Railway Modeller has just arrived and the NGS announcement is for a Hawksworth Full Brake K45/6. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I am confused. December's Railway Modeller has just arrived and the NGS announcement is for a Hawksworth Full Brake K45/6. The NGS changed their plans a week after announcing the K45. After checking it was found that none of the Hawksworth BGs carried GWR livery in service, all were introduced in BR days. It was felt that producing a model that could legitimately carry true GWR colours would appeal to a wider range of modellers than one that was exclusively post-nationalisation. I do not know if it had an bearing but a good range of Hawksworth kits are available from Ultima/Etched Pixels. Whereas the K41/42 is not available in any form as far as I know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Plate 126 show a mixed parcels train containing (among others): 2x K42 in brown K41 in brown The Great Western Railway in the 1930s Volume 2 - Geen/Scott Plate 259 shows a K41 in brown in mid-1937 - caption notes that the brown livery for vans was introduced a couple of years earlier Based on these, all-over brown seems a valid livery for both diagrams. Sadly I cannot determine running numbers but I will have another look and see if I can make out any route branding. I have a 20x14 blow up of plate 126 (courtesy of Mr Geen) and unfortunately the brandings cannot be made out. The trains has two K42's both relatively new from the first batch. The last vehicle is a K41 as built and be seen to be in Chocolate and Cream on the larger shot. Plate 259 is a bit of a boo boo (David Geen is aware). It is almost likely to be K40, identified by windows to every door (K41/2 only have window to left hand door) 7ft bogies (K41/2 have 9ft) and different window fixed window layout. There appears to be unusual shadows around the door handles indicating possible recessed (K41/2 are flush). If they are not recessed it may well be K37 1165. It is diificult to include the bow/flat end arguement due to the angle of the shot All over brown is valid for the K42 as the earlier batches were all built that way. The K41's were built in Chocolate and Cream era, though some would have received all over brown as they came in for overhaul, I suspect vehicles from the 1934 lot. I would have to check the registers for actual numbers, but any receiving major work including new doors (a common requirement on parcels stock) then a new paint job would be required. Mike Wiltshre Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted November 7, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2012 Hello all, This is really helpful information, many thanks to all who have contributed so far. I think that the decision for us really is between the K41 and the K42. Advantages of K41: introduced earlier, so correct in GWR pre-war choc and cream. Disadvantage: All withdrawn from revenue service by early 1970s, though some remained in departmental use. Advantage of K42: lasted longer in revenue service (1978) and improved route availability meant they were seen on other metals. Disadvantage: Correct choc/cream only post-war. Does this make sense? cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Advantages of K41: introduced earlier, so correct in GWR pre-war choc and cream. Disadvantage: All withdrawn from revenue service by early 1970s, though some remained in departmental use. Advantage of K42: lasted longer in revenue service (1978) and improved route availability meant they were seen on other metals. Disadvantage: Correct choc/cream only post-war. Does this make sense? Short and sweet. I model the post-war GWR so both diagrams are quite acceptable to me. That being so I will try to offer some unbiased advice. Dapol's experience seems to have been that the "shirtbutton" variant is the least popular of the GWR liveries. Being able to offer 2 variants of choc and cream livery (in addition to shirtbutton chocolate) seems to me to be a distinct advantage for the K41. Both diagrams received rail blue so although the K42s lasted longer in service it does not open up more livery variants. Modellers looks for some interesting NPCCS are more likely to base their choice on the liveries available rather than the exact date of withdrawal. I am sure a blue K41 will satisfy most modellers, even if they did not last as long as a blue K42. My gut feeling is that the more numerous K41 is a slightly better choice. Here is another suggestion though. The marginal difference in body profile is unlikely to be noticable in N gauge. The biggest visual difference between the 2 diagrams is the continuous rainstrip on the K42. Would it be possible to design this part of the model with a slide to accomodate both variants with a single tooling? I know this is technically possible but I do not know how it would affect costing. If it could be done, it might give the best of both worlds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2012 ...... The biggest visual difference between the 2 diagrams is the continuous rainstrip on the K42..... Did all K42s have a continuous rainstrip though? Or if they did were they removed soon after construction? The reason I ask is that I have nearly finished a K42 in 00 without this rainstrip and your comments threw me. So I went back to the books to have a look. In Russell's coaches pt2 there is a picture of a K42 on p257 and I can't see a continuous rainstrip. In Russell's coaches appendix volume2 on p159 there are 3 pictures of K42 and I can only see the rainstrip on one of them. On p160 there are 2 pictures with no rainstrip visible, In Kevin Robertson's Great Western Coaches in colour there is a picture of a K42 on p28. Again I can't see any rainstrip. So what is the story here? Do I need to go back and modify my model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 The difference in rainstrips on the K42s could be down to could be different Lots. Might be a good idea to match up observations to Lots and see if there's any pattern. Though perhaps not as noticable as the different style of rainstrips, the windows on the K41 are set higher and are less tall than those on the K42 (matching the high-waisted 1934 style corridor stock). According to Harris, the last K41s were withdrawn from normal service in 1974, however the Fison's weedkiller train included coaches from diagrams K41, K42 & K44, so they were around in some kind of use just as long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) Woohoo, I think I have just found what we are looking for. Here is a shot of K42 124 in all-over chocolate livery (originally posted by Chris Leigh). The photo is not dated but it looks ex-works so I suspect this shot is as-built in 1940. Edited November 8, 2012 by Karhedron 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Good pic, Karhedron. Note the pressed-steel bogies (cf the ones in the OP, which aren't.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 The comet website claims that some K42s were built in chocolate and cream and only 124 and 126 carried all-over chococlate. I have to admit I am sceptical about this claim as the photos we have found so far have not shown any chocolate and cream K42s from the 1937 or 1940 batches. My personal feeling is that it is probably only the 1945 batch that carried choc and cream from new and this would have been the post-war "Hawksworth" version of the livery as applied to 276 in preservation. I have yet to find a chcoclate and cream K42 in 1930s "shirtbutton" livery but I will keep looking. http://www.southdevonrailwayassociation.org/Coach-276.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold A Murphy Posted November 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2012 Great looking coaches. Does the team think any K41s or 2s would have lasted into the early 1950s in overall brown livery? I really fancy one of these for my largely exLNER parcels trains, which will include aging teak and crimson... best wishes, Alastair M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Great looking coaches. Does the team think any K41s or 2s would have lasted into the early 1950s in overall brown livery? I really fancy one of these for my largely exLNER parcels trains, which will include aging teak and crimson... I believe one or two K40s made it into the early 50s in hybrid brown livery but with BR(WR) style lettering. Not sure about any K41/42s. As always, the difficulty is proving it from a period when most photographers preffered to shoot express engines rather than "waste" the film on humble brake vehicles. Swindon took works shots of vehicles including that of 124 above. Does anyone know if this was done for every vehicle constructed or was it just certain specimen examples? Does an archive of these works shots survive anywhere as it would certainly answer some questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 contact Steam Museum in Swindon or I think a lot went to NRM at York. Outside possibility are National archive also at Swindon. Kidderminster photographic archive is another option although I have a feeling that has moved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) Does anyone know if this was done for every vehicle constructed or was it just certain specimen examples? I think most diagrams probably got a 'works shot', but I'm not sure there was a hard and fast rule. Repaints in newer liveries were generally not photographed as far as I know, but no doubt there were exceptions. Edited November 8, 2012 by Miss Prism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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