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Leeds City, the Midland Side, in 4mm.


TheLaird
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Are the signals switched with the points and interlocked or seperately operated by a signalman on the Wurlitzer?

 

Mike.

Mike, at this moment in time there is very little interlocking apart from the electrical release of points between LCJ and the South Side. However, soon to be revealed will be a fully mechanically interlocked lever frame for City Jct that will interface with the electrically operated points and signals! A similar one for Wellington box is also planned for a later stage. I must admit that I am not the builder of said frames, he may "come out" at some stage but I leave that decision to him. 

 

Regards John E.

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. I must admit that I am not the builder of said frames, he may "come out" at some stage but I leave that decision to him. 

 

 

Well, given such a build up, I ought to say a few words!

 

I suppose the first thing to say is that many people would think that building a mechanically interlocked lever frame is a long way "off topic" in a model railway forum.  And I might well agree! But equally, anyone who has tried to operate a large and complex layout knows that some form of interlocking between points and signals is essential, and since John and many of his crew have an interest in full-size signalling, they expect it done properly! Other large layouts we are involved in have used electrical or computerised locking systems and for very large installations this might be the only practical way.  However, on my own layout, "Minories", which some RMwebers may have seen at Warley 2 years ago, I used a fully mechanically locked frame of 25 levers.  After discussion with John, it seemed only a small step from there to the 125 required for his two signal boxes...

 

My own lever frame was based around the 5-lever "kit" sold by the Scalefour Society - it is by far the best available at reasonable cost, and has been available to anyone via their on-line sales for several years now. I married this to an etched locking solution of my own design.  This is what the result looked like:-

 

 

post-11380-0-60552600-1522317682.jpg

 

This arrangement worked well enough but it has to be said that the original design of the frame was not intended to suit interlocking and so a bit of knife and fork work was needed to make it function - fine for 25 levers, not so for 125!  After some discussion with the Officials in the Scalefour society, it was agreed that I would re-design the lever frame and that the Society would make the frame and the locking available for sale to the public - so the good news is, if anyone fancies having  a go at this nonsense they can get hold of all the bits needed - in fact, they will be on sale at Scalefour North in Wakefield in 2 weeks time.

 

So, with all the logistics sorted out, it remained only to do the design work, gets some bits etched, and put it all together...   Well, it was not quite that simple and a couple of design iterations were needed to get the thing spot on, but at least that was the "mechanics out of the way...   Then there was the matter of working out the locking - given that we have not (so far!) come across any details of the locking on the "real" Leeds City Junction, though John does have an "official" box diagram which has plenty of clues about how the layout was worked.  In fact the Midland Railway had slightly eased the job for us as all the Facing Point Locks are "economical" - that is they are worked off the point levers - but despite that, a degree of reverse-engineering was need to "guess" how the Midland might have done the job. 

 

I have a personal view that if you are going to lock a frame, then it should be done properly so the design includes all the features that the real locking would have included such as the conditional locking, sequential locking and the electrical locks - though the last bit is still something of a work in progress.

 

After few weeks of battle, the frame for LCJ has made some progress - here are some shots of progress so far:-

 

firstly, this is what 55 levers look like (only 15 to go for LCJ ...) amongst the clutter of my work bench...

 

post-11380-0-85034000-1522319048_thumb.jpg

 

Secondly, here is the locking table just about half finished - behind you can see the working drawing which I am working to - it is already at version 6 ...

 

post-11380-0-33077000-1522319023_thumb.jpg

 

If people are interested to know more, I will post further details of how it is all done - though in a separate thread to avoid distracting from John's words on the rest of the layout - which is much more interesting!

 

The good news about all this is that it has encourage John to make progress with his excellent signals ... the bad news is that he needs to extend his shed to fit is all in!

 

Best wishes,

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If people are interested to know more, I will post further details of how it is all done - though in a separate thread to avoid distracting from John's words on the rest of the layout - which is much more interesting!

 

 

Howard

 

I would be very interested to see the progress on this lever frame; the process of creating the locking table has always been one of the dark arts in my book. ;)

 

As an aside are you doing anything about detection at the remote end?

 

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 the process of creating the locking table has always been one of the dark arts in my book. ;)

 

As an aside are you doing anything about detection at the remote end?

 

I can hardly claim to be an expert in the design process but there are quite a few on-line resources to help and the Signalling Record Society has plenty of real examples to study.  Regarding detection, it does not really apply in this case as the ground equipment is all worked electrically (via servos),  I have have often thought about the detection of point blades but - at least in 4mm - I have not get any practical answer so fer.

 

Best wishes,

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  • 2 weeks later...

Excellent work John!

 

Just to mention that if any RMWebbers are near Wakefield this weekend (14/15th) Scalefour North is being held at the Queen Elizabeth Grammar School in Northgate. Details here:- https://www.scalefour.org/scalefournorth/2018/

 

I will be demonstrating all this interlocking nonesense, and the frame and locking for Leeds City Junction will be with me for all to look at.

How to meet a few new faces!

 

Best wishes,

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  • 2 weeks later...

The final piece of the jigsaw for now:-

 

post-10660-0-18380300-1524640671_thumb.jpg

 

This amalgamation controls the exit from the south fiddle yard as these signals controlled by the junction box are off scene. I have an operating session tomorrow so that all of the signalling described so far can be thoroughly tested. The railway will be shut down afterwards for a period to allow some 12in to the foot construction work to commence. I need to extend the shed so that the new lever frame can be accommodated!!

 

post-10660-0-01920600-1524640648_thumb.jpg

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One for the DMU enthusiasts.....

 

post-10660-0-67049500-1524676766_thumb.jpg

 

From right to left, the 108 is standing on the Down Fast waiting for the dolly to clear so it can back across the Up Fast and into the North Carriage Sidings its duties completed for now. The 101 forming a service from Darlington is being held on the Up Slow to allow the late running 101 from Sheffield to enter the platform first as they are due out in the reverse order. The Darlington and the Sheffield are for City South. Time is just after 11am.

 

The eagle eyed among you will have spotted that the single signal on the Up Slow is incorrect and is in fact temporarily placed as the actual signal, a three doll bracket, is not constructed yet!

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Those signals are very impressive. I like your method of connecting the servos as it seems that all you have to do is place the signal and connect it up - the amount of under board work is minimal. Where do you get the base pieces (MDF?) from or do you cut them yourself? A bit more detail on how you assemble them would be good!

 

Ian

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Might a video be seen of the operation.............

 

Keith

I'm intending to position a camera in the Leeds - Liverpool canal (should give a good view of the Junction) for a couple of hours during today's operating session. With John's permission (and a following technology wind), I will upload it, probably at the weekend. Edited by leopardml2341
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I'm intending to position a camera in the Leeds - Liverpool canal (should give a good view of the Junction) for a couple of hours during today's operating session. With John's permission (and a following technology wind), I will upload it, probably at the weekend.

 

A waterproof camera hopefully?

Looking forward to the footage.

 

Mike.

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Great running day yesterday - many thanks to John and the whole team.   The new signals make a huge difference albeit that they make working City Junction even more stressful!  What we need is a fully interlocked lever frame - well, at least it did put in an appearance even it it was not working...

 

Here are a few snaps of it going together the day before.  

 

I mentioned that one of the objectives when I worked out the design for these etches was to make the building - and particularly the assembly - of longer frames much easier than with the original Scalefour Society design.

Those who came to look at the components at Scalefour North in Wakefield [many thanks for some very interesting discussions ladies and gents] will have seen that a 70 lever frame involves a lot of metal, so I approached this stage with some trepidation - "theory" is fine, but the practice might be different.

Well, I am pleased to say that it all went pretty well - here are a few photos showing what it is all about.

The first step is to break all the frame units down to their component parts for painting

 

post-11380-0-49273400-1524822934_thumb.jpg

 

Next,starting at the high-number end, each of the five-lever frame units is added to the locking table, its levers inserted and the pivot rod slid into place.

 

post-11380-0-72250500-1524823006_thumb.jpg

 

Then it is just a case of working down towards the low end

 

post-11380-0-30802300-1524823098_thumb.jpg

 

post-11380-0-77468200-1524823131_thumb.jpg

 

post-11380-0-80472900-1524823165_thumb.jpg

 

Getting the whole job done only took about 3/4 of an hour in the end, after which the frame can be fitted to a base.  This is a temporary job as the final one will incorporate the electrical switches, the elcric locks and all the wiring.

 

post-11380-0-97909100-1524823322_thumb.jpg

 

Now the testing can begin - so far not too bad: just a couple of "stiff" locks to "ease".  Oh, and one missing lock - but then I fitted the "last" bit of locking last Sunday - since when I have had to fit four more...  Good job the design makes partial disassembly and modification fairly easy!

 

Now I have had a chance to have a play with it, I have learned quite a lot more about how it must have worked in the real box and very interesting it is as well.

 

hope that is of interest.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Those signals are very impressive. I like your method of connecting the servos as it seems that all you have to do is place the signal and connect it up - the amount of under board work is minimal. Where do you get the base pieces (MDF?) from or do you cut them yourself? A bit more detail on how you assemble them would be good!

 

Ian

 

Ian, they say a picture paints a thousand words so hopefully this will help explain....

 

post-10660-0-16116500-1524824822_thumb.jpg

 

On the left is the parts for a single servo tower, then an assembled two servo tower and finally a three servo tower showing where the servo goes. Reference to the previous shots of complete towers with signals should make it clear. The top plate is cut to accept the wooden post signals I am doing currently. All parts cut by me on the laser.

 

John E.

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Great running day yesterday - many thanks to John and the whole team.   The new signals make a huge difference albeit that they make working City Junction even more stressful!  What we need is a fully interlocked lever frame - well, at least it did put in an appearance even it it was not working...

 

Here are a few snaps of it going together the day before.  

 

I mentioned that one of the objectives when I worked out the design for these etches was to make the building - and particularly the assembly - of longer frames much easier than with the original Scalefour Society design.

 

Those who came to look at the components at Scalefour North in Wakefield [many thanks for some very interesting discussions ladies and gents] will have seen that a 70 lever frame involves a lot of metal, so I approached this stage with some trepidation - "theory" is fine, but the practice might be different.

 

Well, I am pleased to say that it all went pretty well - here are a few photos showing what it is all about.

 

The first step is to break all the frame units down to their component parts for painting

 

attachicon.gifLevers.jpg

 

Next,starting at the high-number end, each of the five-lever frame units is added to the locking table, its levers inserted and the pivot rod slid into place.

 

attachicon.gifFirst 5.jpg

 

Then it is just a case of working down towards the low end

 

attachicon.gifFrame Assy 2.jpg

 

attachicon.gifFrame Assy 1.jpg

 

attachicon.gifFrame Assy 3.jpg

 

Getting the whole job done only took about 3/4 of an hour in the end, after which the frame can be fitted to a base.  This is a temporary job as the final one will incorporate the electrical switches, the elcric locks and all the wiring.

 

attachicon.gifAssy Complete.jpg

 

Now the testing can begin - so far not too bad: just a couple of "stiff" locks to "ease".  Oh, and one missing lock - but then I fitted the "last" bit of locking last Sunday - since when I have had to fit four more...  Good job the design makes partial disassembly and modification fairly easy!

 

Now I have had a chance to have a play with it, I have learned quite a lot more about how it must have worked in the real box and very interesting it is as well.

 

hope that is of interest.

 

Best wishes,

Simply lovely.

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