danstercivicman Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 Amazing workmanship Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share Posted March 24, 2018 Are the signals switched with the points and interlocked or seperately operated by a signalman on the Wurlitzer? Mike. Mike, at this moment in time there is very little interlocking apart from the electrical release of points between LCJ and the South Side. However, soon to be revealed will be a fully mechanically interlocked lever frame for City Jct that will interface with the electrically operated points and signals! A similar one for Wellington box is also planned for a later stage. I must admit that I am not the builder of said frames, he may "come out" at some stage but I leave that decision to him. Regards John E. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 . I must admit that I am not the builder of said frames, he may "come out" at some stage but I leave that decision to him. Well, given such a build up, I ought to say a few words! I suppose the first thing to say is that many people would think that building a mechanically interlocked lever frame is a long way "off topic" in a model railway forum. And I might well agree! But equally, anyone who has tried to operate a large and complex layout knows that some form of interlocking between points and signals is essential, and since John and many of his crew have an interest in full-size signalling, they expect it done properly! Other large layouts we are involved in have used electrical or computerised locking systems and for very large installations this might be the only practical way. However, on my own layout, "Minories", which some RMwebers may have seen at Warley 2 years ago, I used a fully mechanically locked frame of 25 levers. After discussion with John, it seemed only a small step from there to the 125 required for his two signal boxes... My own lever frame was based around the 5-lever "kit" sold by the Scalefour Society - it is by far the best available at reasonable cost, and has been available to anyone via their on-line sales for several years now. I married this to an etched locking solution of my own design. This is what the result looked like:- This arrangement worked well enough but it has to be said that the original design of the frame was not intended to suit interlocking and so a bit of knife and fork work was needed to make it function - fine for 25 levers, not so for 125! After some discussion with the Officials in the Scalefour society, it was agreed that I would re-design the lever frame and that the Society would make the frame and the locking available for sale to the public - so the good news is, if anyone fancies having a go at this nonsense they can get hold of all the bits needed - in fact, they will be on sale at Scalefour North in Wakefield in 2 weeks time. So, with all the logistics sorted out, it remained only to do the design work, gets some bits etched, and put it all together... Well, it was not quite that simple and a couple of design iterations were needed to get the thing spot on, but at least that was the "mechanics out of the way... Then there was the matter of working out the locking - given that we have not (so far!) come across any details of the locking on the "real" Leeds City Junction, though John does have an "official" box diagram which has plenty of clues about how the layout was worked. In fact the Midland Railway had slightly eased the job for us as all the Facing Point Locks are "economical" - that is they are worked off the point levers - but despite that, a degree of reverse-engineering was need to "guess" how the Midland might have done the job. I have a personal view that if you are going to lock a frame, then it should be done properly so the design includes all the features that the real locking would have included such as the conditional locking, sequential locking and the electrical locks - though the last bit is still something of a work in progress. After few weeks of battle, the frame for LCJ has made some progress - here are some shots of progress so far:- firstly, this is what 55 levers look like (only 15 to go for LCJ ...) amongst the clutter of my work bench... Secondly, here is the locking table just about half finished - behind you can see the working drawing which I am working to - it is already at version 6 ... If people are interested to know more, I will post further details of how it is all done - though in a separate thread to avoid distracting from John's words on the rest of the layout - which is much more interesting! The good news about all this is that it has encourage John to make progress with his excellent signals ... the bad news is that he needs to extend his shed to fit is all in! Best wishes, 14 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted March 29, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 29, 2018 If people are interested to know more Yes please! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gz3xzf Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 If people are interested to know more, I will post further details of how it is all done - though in a separate thread to avoid distracting from John's words on the rest of the layout - which is much more interesting! Howard I would be very interested to see the progress on this lever frame; the process of creating the locking table has always been one of the dark arts in my book. As an aside are you doing anything about detection at the remote end? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 the process of creating the locking table has always been one of the dark arts in my book. As an aside are you doing anything about detection at the remote end? I can hardly claim to be an expert in the design process but there are quite a few on-line resources to help and the Signalling Record Society has plenty of real examples to study. Regarding detection, it does not really apply in this case as the ground equipment is all worked electrically (via servos), I have have often thought about the detection of point blades but - at least in 4mm - I have not get any practical answer so fer. Best wishes, 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Thanks for the likes and comments chaps. Just to mention that there is a topic on the Scalefour society forum to which I have added a few detail photos:- https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5813&p=60239#p60239 You do not have to be a member to view. Cheers, 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TheLaird Posted March 30, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2018 The results of this weeks efforts:- The Down Fast and Slow starters for Leeds City Jct. The splitting distants belong to Whitehall Jct. The Shunt Ahead subsidiary was added at a later date. Nearly all of the signals are original Midland Wooden post but the arms have been updated to Upper Quadrant LMS type, not sure what date but I think early BR. The models have been tested on the bench but they are not yet connected up to the layout. 20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Excellent work John! Just to mention that if any RMWebbers are near Wakefield this weekend (14/15th) Scalefour North is being held at the Queen Elizabeth Grammar School in Northgate. Details here:- https://www.scalefour.org/scalefournorth/2018/ I will be demonstrating all this interlocking nonesense, and the frame and locking for Leeds City Junction will be with me for all to look at. How to meet a few new faces! Best wishes, 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TheLaird Posted April 16, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted April 16, 2018 The signal building continues:- 24 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 The final piece of the jigsaw for now:- This amalgamation controls the exit from the south fiddle yard as these signals controlled by the junction box are off scene. I have an operating session tomorrow so that all of the signalling described so far can be thoroughly tested. The railway will be shut down afterwards for a period to allow some 12in to the foot construction work to commence. I need to extend the shed so that the new lever frame can be accommodated!! 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I'm gonna be one of the guinea pigs, doing the afternoon shift in Leeds City Junction 'box' Which will probably result in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 One for the DMU enthusiasts..... From right to left, the 108 is standing on the Down Fast waiting for the dolly to clear so it can back across the Up Fast and into the North Carriage Sidings its duties completed for now. The 101 forming a service from Darlington is being held on the Up Slow to allow the late running 101 from Sheffield to enter the platform first as they are due out in the reverse order. The Darlington and the Sheffield are for City South. Time is just after 11am. The eagle eyed among you will have spotted that the single signal on the Up Slow is incorrect and is in fact temporarily placed as the actual signal, a three doll bracket, is not constructed yet! 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHC Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Might a video be seen of the operation............. Keith 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianh1 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Those signals are very impressive. I like your method of connecting the servos as it seems that all you have to do is place the signal and connect it up - the amount of under board work is minimal. Where do you get the base pieces (MDF?) from or do you cut them yourself? A bit more detail on how you assemble them would be good! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) Might a video be seen of the operation............. Keith I'm intending to position a camera in the Leeds - Liverpool canal (should give a good view of the Junction) for a couple of hours during today's operating session. With John's permission (and a following technology wind), I will upload it, probably at the weekend. Edited April 26, 2018 by leopardml2341 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted April 26, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 26, 2018 I'm intending to position a camera in the Leeds - Liverpool canal (should give a good view of the Junction) for a couple of hours during today's operating session. With John's permission (and a following technology wind), I will upload it, probably at the weekend. A waterproof camera hopefully? Looking forward to the footage. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanddman54 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 The signal building continues:- LCJ 20,21,22,25front.jpgLCW 20,21,22,25 - 65.JPG LCJ 20,21,22,25rear.jpg IMG_0883.jpg Apologies if this has already been asked but what servos do you use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 Apologies if this has already been asked but what servos do you use? Tower Pro SG90s or clones. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Might a video be seen of the operation............. Keith Sorry folks, cr@p camera (supposed to be 1080P HD dash cam) coupled with inept operator means there's nothing to see here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted April 26, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 26, 2018 Sorry folks, cr@p camera (supposed to be 1080P HD dash cam) coupled with inept operator means there's nothing to see here. Boo hiss. Consider yourself a failure! Maybe another day? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Great running day yesterday - many thanks to John and the whole team. The new signals make a huge difference albeit that they make working City Junction even more stressful! What we need is a fully interlocked lever frame - well, at least it did put in an appearance even it it was not working... Here are a few snaps of it going together the day before. I mentioned that one of the objectives when I worked out the design for these etches was to make the building - and particularly the assembly - of longer frames much easier than with the original Scalefour Society design.Those who came to look at the components at Scalefour North in Wakefield [many thanks for some very interesting discussions ladies and gents] will have seen that a 70 lever frame involves a lot of metal, so I approached this stage with some trepidation - "theory" is fine, but the practice might be different.Well, I am pleased to say that it all went pretty well - here are a few photos showing what it is all about.The first step is to break all the frame units down to their component parts for painting Next,starting at the high-number end, each of the five-lever frame units is added to the locking table, its levers inserted and the pivot rod slid into place. Then it is just a case of working down towards the low end Getting the whole job done only took about 3/4 of an hour in the end, after which the frame can be fitted to a base. This is a temporary job as the final one will incorporate the electrical switches, the elcric locks and all the wiring. Now the testing can begin - so far not too bad: just a couple of "stiff" locks to "ease". Oh, and one missing lock - but then I fitted the "last" bit of locking last Sunday - since when I have had to fit four more... Good job the design makes partial disassembly and modification fairly easy! Now I have had a chance to have a play with it, I have learned quite a lot more about how it must have worked in the real box and very interesting it is as well. hope that is of interest. Best wishes, 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLaird Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 Those signals are very impressive. I like your method of connecting the servos as it seems that all you have to do is place the signal and connect it up - the amount of under board work is minimal. Where do you get the base pieces (MDF?) from or do you cut them yourself? A bit more detail on how you assemble them would be good! Ian Ian, they say a picture paints a thousand words so hopefully this will help explain.... On the left is the parts for a single servo tower, then an assembled two servo tower and finally a three servo tower showing where the servo goes. Reference to the previous shots of complete towers with signals should make it clear. The top plate is cut to accept the wooden post signals I am doing currently. All parts cut by me on the laser. John E. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted April 27, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 27, 2018 Great running day yesterday - many thanks to John and the whole team. The new signals make a huge difference albeit that they make working City Junction even more stressful! What we need is a fully interlocked lever frame - well, at least it did put in an appearance even it it was not working... Here are a few snaps of it going together the day before. I mentioned that one of the objectives when I worked out the design for these etches was to make the building - and particularly the assembly - of longer frames much easier than with the original Scalefour Society design. Those who came to look at the components at Scalefour North in Wakefield [many thanks for some very interesting discussions ladies and gents] will have seen that a 70 lever frame involves a lot of metal, so I approached this stage with some trepidation - "theory" is fine, but the practice might be different. Well, I am pleased to say that it all went pretty well - here are a few photos showing what it is all about. The first step is to break all the frame units down to their component parts for painting Levers.jpg Next,starting at the high-number end, each of the five-lever frame units is added to the locking table, its levers inserted and the pivot rod slid into place. First 5.jpg Then it is just a case of working down towards the low end Frame Assy 2.jpg Frame Assy 1.jpg Frame Assy 3.jpg Getting the whole job done only took about 3/4 of an hour in the end, after which the frame can be fitted to a base. This is a temporary job as the final one will incorporate the electrical switches, the elcric locks and all the wiring. Assy Complete.jpg Now the testing can begin - so far not too bad: just a couple of "stiff" locks to "ease". Oh, and one missing lock - but then I fitted the "last" bit of locking last Sunday - since when I have had to fit four more... Good job the design makes partial disassembly and modification fairly easy! Now I have had a chance to have a play with it, I have learned quite a lot more about how it must have worked in the real box and very interesting it is as well. hope that is of interest. Best wishes, Simply lovely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted April 27, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2018 Simply lovely. Most definitely. Guaranteed to start a wishfroth. Mike. PS. Me first!!!!!!!!!!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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