Leeds City, the Midland Side, in 4mm.

[danstercivicman]

On 07/03/2019 at 15:18, TheLaird said:

A panoramic view towards the station. A Fairburn Tank is waiting in P6 having brought in the Bradford - Bristol, it will work back with a St Pancras - Bradford due in at 2214hrs.

 

Note the realistically poor alignment of the trackwork along with the subsidence. These telephoto shots really show it up!!

 

Such an amazing photo 

[TheLaird]

On 08/03/2019 at 09:07, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

That frame really is a work of art, very impressive!!

 

If I may be so bold to ask, how do you intend to make the electric locks? When I eventually build my layout I intend to signal it from a frame, but cheat by locking it electrically (à la Westinghouse L Style). I trained on mechanically-locked frames many moons ago, but since then all I've touched is relay-interlocking and solid state....... 

The electric locks are based on relays with an attachment to the armature that locks the mechanical lever. HAB can explain it in more detail if you ask him. 

 

Regards John E.

[Leander]

Photographed on my phone during Saturday's running session are Britannia Pacifics No. 70052 'Firth of Tay' in the foreground and No. 70015 'Apollo' (behind), gathered around the turntable at Engine Shed Junction fiddle yard, otherwise known as the South fiddle yard. Lurking on the right is Ivatt 4MT No. 43039, and beyond are Jubilee 4-6-0 No. 45611 'Hong Kong', B1 4-6-0 No. 61392 and behind that, one of the Fairburn 2-6-4Ts.

[HAB]

On 08/03/2019 at 09:07, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

If I may be so bold to ask, how do you intend to make the electric locks? When I eventually build my layout I intend to signal it from a frame, but cheat by locking it electrically (à la Westinghouse L Style). I trained on mechanically-locked frames many moons ago, but since then all I've touched is relay-interlocking and solid state....... 

 

Personally, I would build the layout first!!

 

There is more detail on page 36, but here is a copy of one of those photos showing the test frame:-

 

The locks are made using custom-designed etches, home-made PCBs and utilise standard Omron power relays, slightly over-voltaged to provide the umph. They come in various varieties to give the different kinds of lock we need. (combinations of Normal, Reverse, and "Backlock" positions). It has to be said that providing an electrically operated physical lock on levers as small as these (10mm pitch) is by no means easy - particularly making them 110% reliable. We are only doing the locks from the track circuits and block instruments this way yet it still requires around 80 relays just for the 70 lever frame at Junction which has 30 electricly locked levers. If we were trying to do the whole lot electrically we would need another shed to house it all in! 

 

Not only that, but each electric lock requires an "Economiser" plunger - like these:-

Which means yet more work for an all-electric solution!

Based on my (fairly extensive!) experience so far, for frames (say up to 75 levers) such as these, mechanical locking  is much "easier" to accomplish than relay locking (not least because of the need to explicitly provide all the reciprocals with a relay design) and if building mechanical locking is beyond one's skillset, or for anything much bigger, I would go a software route - not least because mods are easy!   With the advent of Raspberry Pi with cheap-as-chips interface boards, software solutions are pretty simple these days.

 

BUT there is a bottom line here - complex problems are hard work to solve - no matter how you go about it!  You got to ENJOY this kind of nonesense - which I do: it is just the right combination of intellectual challenge and bright shiny metal!

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

[Dave Holt]

Howard,

It might be the right mixture of intellectual challenge and bright, shiny metal to you, but to most of us it's just jaw dropping complexity, way beyond comprehension. The mechanical locking arrangements alone are way off my scale of understanding and the electrical locks make it even more rarefied. How on earth do you conceptualise all that stuff?

In awe,

Dave.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Dave Holt

[HAB]

2 hours ago, Dave Holt said:

...  to most of us it's just jaw dropping complexity, way beyond comprehension.

 

 

Hello Dave,

 

I think you are too kind!  I have a golden rule in this as in all modelling - just copy what the real thing did because the people who really understood this stuff have solved every possible problem years ago. There are a few challenges in this particular job but mostly it comes down to lots and lots of quite simple bits - the challenge being to be efficient enough in the use of space to fit it all in.

If there is any clever bit in what I have done, then it lies in the design of the etches and, truth to tell, I was a bit surprised at just how well they worked. Even then I copied what the GW did with their VT locking as it is an extremely well thought out design. 

 

And, needless to say, my locos are not one tenth as good as yours!

 

Best Wishes,

 

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, HAB said:

Even then I copied what the GW did with their VT locking as it is an extremely well thought out design. 

And so you should . . . .

but I’m very biased! ! !

The science is knowing what locks you need, the art is in doing it elegantly and efficiently.

Paul.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

15 hours ago, HAB said:

 

Personally, I would build the layout first!!

 

There is more detail on page 36, but here is a copy of one of those photos showing the test frame:-

 

The locks are made using custom-designed etches, home-made PCBs and utilise standard Omron power relays, slightly over-voltaged to provide the umph. They come in various varieties to give the different kinds of lock we need. (combinations of Normal, Reverse, and "Backlock" positions). It has to be said that providing an electrically operated physical lock on levers as small as these (10mm pitch) is by no means easy - particularly making them 110% reliable. We are only doing the locks from the track circuits and block instruments this way yet it still requires around 80 relays just for the 70 lever frame at Junction which has 30 electricly locked levers. If we were trying to do the whole lot electrically we would need another shed to house it all in! 

 

Not only that, but each electric lock requires an "Economiser" plunger - like these:-

Which means yet more work for an all-electric solution!

Based on my (fairly extensive!) experience so far, for frames (say up to 75 levers) such as these, mechanical locking  is much "easier" to accomplish than relay locking (not least because of the need to explicitly provide all the reciprocals with a relay design) and if building mechanical locking is beyond one's skillset, or for anything much bigger, I would go a software route - not least because mods are easy!   With the advent of Raspberry Pi with cheap-as-chips interface boards, software solutions are pretty simple these days.

 

BUT there is a bottom line here - complex problems are hard work to solve - no matter how you go about it!  You got to ENJOY this kind of nonesense - which I do: it is just the right combination of intellectual challenge and bright shiny metal!

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

 

What a magnificent reply, thank you!!

 

How clever to repurpose a relay mechanism, that's not what I expected at all. My own (rather more agricultural) ideas revolved around having a solenoid whose armature is received by a hole in the tappet (for want of a better term) attached to the lever. 

 

Based on my (fairly extensive!) experience so far, for frames (say up to 75 levers) such as these, mechanical locking  is much "easier" to accomplish than relay locking (not least because of the need to explicitly provide all the reciprocals with a relay design) and if building mechanical locking is beyond one's skillset, or for anything much bigger, I would go a software route - not least because mods are easy!

 

It's been many years since I touched a mechanical frame whereas relay and solid state interlocking is my daily bread and butter. That's my excuse for wimping out on a fully mechanical frame and going electric. As you say, the ease of modding software is a nice safety net. 

 

Personally, I would build the layout first!!

 

Yes, that would be a good idea 

 

Thanks again for the reply, most interesting 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

What a magnificent reply, thank you!!

 

How clever to repurpose a relay mechanism, that's not what I expected at all. My own (rather more agricultural) ideas revolved around having a solenoid whose armature is received by a hole in the tappet (for want of a better term) attached to the lever. 

 

Based on my (fairly extensive!) experience so far, for frames (say up to 75 levers) such as these, mechanical locking  is much "easier" to accomplish than relay locking (not least because of the need to explicitly provide all the reciprocals with a relay design) and if building mechanical locking is beyond one's skillset, or for anything much bigger, I would go a software route - not least because mods are easy!

 

It's been many years since I touched a mechanical frame whereas relay and solid state interlocking is my daily bread and butter. That's my excuse for wimping out on a fully mechanical frame and going electric. As you say, the ease of modding software is a nice safety net. 

 

Personally, I would build the layout first!!

 

Yes, that would be a good idea 

 

Thanks again for the reply, most interesting 

That's how the electric locks for Modratec lever frame kits work:

 

https://modratec.com/cart/index.php?main_page=page_4

 

No connection other than as a very satisfied user.

[HAB]

 

Just a couple of further photos of progress on the electric locks.  Here is the current pile of work in progress:-

 

 

Here is one showing the mechanical assembly only to illustrate how alternate locks "point" upwards or downwards to achieve 10mm pitch to enable adjacent levers to be locked.

 

 

This job was quite a design challenge because of the number of constraints (size, robustness, ease of assembly, availability of suitable off the shelf bits, maintainability etc) but most of all becuase they need to be pretty well 100% dependable - if a lock cannot be released, the job is pretty well stopped and the last thing I want is the Laird and 14 of his burly assistants glaring at me with menaces!

 

As of today, about half of the 42 locks needed for the total of 124 levers in the two frames are complete.

 

Hope that is of interest.

 

 

 

[TheLaird]

The Wellington Frame has been fitted in its cabinet and installed on the layout in place of the switches. The release panel has yet to be fitted and so have the electric locks. The pic shows it in its temporary position pending the building of yet another extension to the shed to house it! The installation took place 30 mins before our last operating session and the commissioning took place live so to speak. Apart from a couple of tight pulls, it performed faultlessly and the interlocking made a massive difference to operations, no wrong line movements!

 

[TheLaird]

To compliment the new LCW frame, I have completed and installed the repeater panel. This panel along with the LCJ repeater panel is located on the inside of the layout and is for the benefit of drivers. Not all the signals can be seen from the inside and some of us can't tell if ground signals are Off due to ageing eye sight!! The green LEDs illuminate to show that the respective signal is Off.

 

[TheLaird]

I have another operating session this week, it is in fact the penultimate one before the railway closes for major engineering works, the extension together with some internal modifications.

 

We also have some visitors from the North West coming over to see how things are done the Midland way. Having said that, the Midland Railway along with the LMS are now history and we are in to the British Railways era, but things still keep changing and Leeds City has passed from the Midland Region to the North Eastern Region.

 

So having just taken delivery of a new tripod, I have taken a few snaps around the layout to whet the appetites. Railway time is approaching six in the morning, so as the sun rises on Wednesday 12th Sept 1962 yet again......

 

 

The atmosphere will soon be filled with blue exhaust as the DMUs are fired up for their daily routine. You may notice a figure "9" on the corridor end which is un-prototypical, this is used to identify the sets for timetable purposes and also for the DCC address. The number is added to the class No, this one being a 108 so the ID No is 1089. I use the same idea for carriage sets, the number on the end representing the set No and carriage working No for WTT purposes.

Edited March 23, 2019 by TheLaird

[TheLaird]

Well I was going to upload more shots but it seems I have reached my limit, so no more pics!!

 

Is this a daily limit or wot?

[KeithHC]

Pity about that it means only a small drool. As ever great shots another video soon maybe. So want are the engineering works coming up........

 

Keith

[MrSimon]

It's a limit for each message - bit of a pain if you prefer to take high-res pictures! Good idea putting a number in the unit 

 

Cheers

Simon

[26power]

7 hours ago, TheLaird said:

Well I was going to upload more shots but it seems I have reached my limit, so no more pics!!

 

Is this a daily limit or wot?

You can easily reduce the size of photo files, with no obvious effect on appearance on a computer, e.g. with : http://www.faststone.org/FSResizerDetail.htm

(No interest , just a user).

 

Hope of help, if only so you can post lots of pictures of an interesting layout!

[leopardml2341]

7 hours ago, 26power said:

You can easily reduce the size of photo files, with no obvious effect on appearance on a computer, e.g. with : http://www.faststone.org/FSResizerDetail.htm

(No interest , just a user).

 

Hope of help, if only so you can post lots of pictures of an interesting layout!

An even easier way is, assuming use of MS Office programs, select the photos that you want to use (in file explorer), then right click and select 'send to eMail'.

 

An unaddressed email is created with automatically compressed photos attached. Simply detach the photos to wherever you would like to store them and attach as images here.

[TheLaird]

It would appear that I'm in business again. The station pilot taking a breather at the back of the north carriage sidings.

[TheLaird]

A view across the inner end of the station. The vans are in what will become the parcels dock. Next over is platform 1, the first DMU has been loaded with parcels and forms 3C27 to Knottingley, next out at 0600hrs. Behind that is another 108 that has stabled overnight and will follow out as 3L97, an ECS working to Normanton at 0615. Over in platform 4 we see that the St Pancras - Leeds Sleeping car service has arrived behind a Peak. The day coaches on the rear will work forward to Bradford at 0620 ECS, 3N30. The Peak will continue to heat the sleepers untill after 0700 when the occupants have departed. Beyond is the stock sidings with a 3 coach Sheffield set waiting to be shunted to P1 when the DMUs have departed. Quite a busy start to the day!

 

[TheLaird]

Oh, and not forgetting the Morecambe, Carnforth out of platform 3 at 0604!

 

[danstercivicman]

Very tasty  

[calvin Streeting]

On 23/03/2019 at 21:26, MrSimon said:

It's a limit for each message - bit of a pain if you prefer to take high-res pictures! Good idea putting a number in the unit 

 

Cheers

Simon

there seems to be a minor bug in upload.. if you cancel one or one fails the limit goes wrong...  hit f5 (it should cache your half written post in reply box) and try same photo again

[HAB]

On 23/03/2019 at 15:47, TheLaird said:

To compliment the new LCW frame, I have completed and installed the repeater panel. This panel along with the LCJ repeater panel is located on the inside of the layout and is for the benefit of drivers. Not all the signals can be seen from the inside and some of us can't tell if ground signals are Off due to ageing eye sight!! The green LEDs illuminate to show that the respective signal is Off.

 

 

When I first saw this photo, I assumed (given that the auxilliary switch panel has no locking) that the Laird had casually pulled off a random selection of signals simply to demonstrate the working of the LEDs on the repeater panel.  

 

I should however, have known better, and I now see that he has carefully selected the maximum possible number of parallel movements as follows:-

 

- North Arrival to Platform 2 (signal 37, could also have had distants 34,35)

- South Arrival to Platform 4 (signals 3,8 could also have had distants 1,2)

- North Departure, Shunt to Platform 3 (signals 22, 41)

- South Departure. Shunt to Platform 5 (signals A, 14, 28)

- South Carriage sidings to Loco Sidings (signal 33)

 

So that is five parallel movements, 13 signals off - and not a single lever other than the signal levers needs to be reversed!

 

I think that would consitute a busy day at the office, but I think we came close to that at least once on the last operating day!

 

 

 

 

[Leander]

Here are a few pending new arrivals at LCN. Photographed on John Brighton's 'Millhouses' layout after collection at Scalefour North on Sunday, Sound decoders (Zimo 645Rs), stayalives and sugarcube speakers fitted, and weathering to the black locos by Barry Oliver (Active Weathering). The green 'uns are due to go to Tom Foster to receive his ministrations.