Jump to content

TheLaird

Leeds City, the Midland Side, in 4mm.

Recommended Posts

I used good ol' Templot, or rather the latest version that now includes the facility to output the templates as a Track Diagram as shown here. Did you get around to downloading and wrestling with it over xmas?

 

John.

 

No unfortunately - was 'poorly 'ick' for a lot of Christmas - why is it that one is always ill in the holidays? :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Manchester County Record Office has the following:

 

 

LMS - Leeds Wellington Station - Demolition of existing buildings and making up new deck A/LNW/1/156 1935

minus.gif LMS - Leeds Wellington Station - Re-inforcing concrete decking A/LNW/1/157 1936

minus.gif LMS - Leeds Wellington /City Station - Roof details - Parcels Office A/LNW/1/158 1934-46

minus.gif LMS - Leeds Wellington - Plans showing new building line to existing buildings A/LNW/1/159 1936-7

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Parcels office - New doors A/LNW/1/160 1935-6

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - New concourse - details A/LNW/1/161 1935

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Waiting and refreshment rooms Details A/LNW/1/162 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Ironmongery and door furniture A/LNW/1/163 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building details A/LNW/1/164 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building details A/LNW/1/165 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building details A/LNW/1/166 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building details A/LNW/1/167 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building details A/LNW/1/168 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Concourse - Showcases etc. A/LNW/1/169 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building - layout A/LNW/1/170 1937

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building - windows A/LNW/1/171 1937-8

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Concourse & platform details A/LNW/1/172 1937-8

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Concourse and station offices - details and layout A/LNW/1/173 1938

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Concourse and entrance A/LNW/1/174 1938

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Offices A/LNW/1/175 1936-8

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building - details A/LNW/1/176 1938

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building - details A/LNW/1/177 1938

minus.gif LMS - Leeds City - Station - Office building - details A/LNW/1/178 1937-8

Sounds like some of these may be what you are looking for

 

Andy

Hi,does this impressive source of information exist for other places,ie-.my plans for Chesterfield.

I have the Godfrey 1914 map which gives full sidings and stations, however It just misses the sidings north of Chesterfield Central (.GCR Loop)which were behind the Arnold Laver wood yard.tried to source this but failed.Should I open a post in ??...CHEERS for any help

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Transpires we have the signal box diagram for this station somewhere in our new club rooms. Will try and find it, unroll and photo.

 

Noticeable that the photyos of this station have no apparent reasoning on which platforms are used for different trains.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Transpires we have the signal box diagram for this station somewhere in our new club rooms. Will try and find it, unroll and photo.

 

Noticeable that the photyos of this station have no apparent reasoning on which platforms are used for different trains.

Not quite sure what you mean Barry about the platforms being used for different trains? We have been doing a lot of research into the train services, both the timetable and make up of trains etc. Trouble is that a lot of it is copyright so can't always post it on here but if you are interested and want to find out more pm me and I will share what I have.

 

The signal box diagram sounds really interesting. The real holy grail would be if someone had the local appendix and instructions or the station/platform working instructions. I am lead to believe that there were a set of special bellcodes used between Wellington and City Jct boxes and no block instruments!! Do any of your colleagues know of old railwaymen that may have worked there in the sixties?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,does this impressive source of information exist for other places,ie-.my plans for Chesterfield.

I have the Godfrey 1914 map which gives full sidings and stations, however It just misses the sidings north of Chesterfield Central (.GCR Loop)which were behind the Arnold Laver wood yard.tried to source this but failed.Should I open a post in ??...CHEERS for any help

The reason we found this was because someone told me that the LMS drawing office for the Leeds area was based in Manchester and Andy Rush did a search and came up with this. There may be other stuff relevant to you so give it a try!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to Andyrush's research back in November, I have just spent half a day in Manchester County Records Office following up the leads on the list of drawings. Suffice to say (cos The Laird hasn't seen the fruits of my labours yet), it has been a most useful piece of help. Thanks Andy. Turned up some really good stuff, which will really help the project along. Although Andy came up with just over 20 references, each ref, constututed a roll of drawings, and said rolls could contain up to 30 individual drawings.

 

Tired, but happy,

 

Kevin

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meanwhile, while Suddaby was on a jaunt round the fleshpots of Manchester, The Laird and I have been working on the WTT and carriage workings documents to work out the coaching stock requirements. Needless to say, we'll need a lot of stock to run one day's sequence.

 

As far as Mark i coaches are concerned we will require getting on for 100 individual coaches to run the class 1 services; the most numerous typs used being BSKs, SKs and CKs. Perhaps surprisingly, very few full first class coaches were used, except for a very small number of FKs and FOs on the London trains conveying business travellers to and from St Pancras. Otherwise CKs were used for the first class on most services. R-T-R covers most requirements, or will cover when Bachman releases the Sleeping Cars, but we will need also one BSO, an RB and three RKBs, plus the LMS period 2 RF on 'The Waverley' rake.

 

All in all a good day's work (and the baseboards have arrived in CKD form).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apologies I am trying to sort out the info I have but too much to do at the mo - will be back soon!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

 

As far as Mark i coaches are concerned we will require getting on for 100 individual coaches to run the class 1 services; the most numerous typs used being BSKs, SKs and CKs. Perhaps surprisingly, very few full first class coaches were used, except for a very small number of FKs and FOs on the London trains conveying business travellers to and from St Pancras. Otherwise CKs were used for the first class on most services. R-T-R covers most requirements, or will cover when Bachman releases the Sleeping Cars, but we will need also one BSO, an RB and three RKBs, plus the LMS period 2 RF on 'The Waverley' rake.

 

Crikey :O  thats going to require a lot of carriage sidings and a very big fiddle/staging yard

Edited by westerner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crikey :O  thats going to require a lot of carriage sidings and a very big fiddle/staging yard

Carriage sidings not such a problem as only a few local services originate or layover at Leeds. Most of the trains pass through, all reversing and changing locos, usually in about 6 mins!! You are right about the fiddle yard of course, that is why I am working on a double deck setup to accommodate everything. All the heavy trains of 8 coaches or more will use the lower yard and the lighter stuff 7 coaches and less the upper yard because the gradient to the upper yard will be nearly twice as steep. This is why so much planning is going into the WTT so we can be sure that this will work and all trains can be accommodated.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crikey :O  thats going to require a lot of carriage sidings and a very big fiddle/staging yard

Could you re-marshall stock for different trains, rather than modelling each train in its entirety?  It would give the fiddle yard operator something to do, in between drinking coffee, eating bacon butties and reading the Daily Mirror ;)

Edited by Dr Gerbil-Fritters
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you re-marshall stock for different trains, rather than modelling each train in its entirety?  It would give the fiddle yard operator something to do, in between drinking coffee, eating bacon butties and reading the Daily Mirror ;)

 

Coffee ?

Bacon Butties ?

Reading ?

 

There's precious little time left after deciphering The Lairds cryptic operator notes on the train describer and the paper WTT.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a thought, but if there was a slight incline down to the lower fiddle yard and a slight incline up to the upper fiddle yard that would lessen the gradient.

Edited by westerner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you re-marshall stock for different trains, rather than modelling each train in its entirety?  It would give the fiddle yard operator something to do, in between drinking coffee, eating bacon butties and reading the Daily Mirror ;)

In 1962-63 there was very little standardisation, Dr G-F, and set rakes were almost unheard of on the MML, at least as far as the trains serving Leeds were concerned. I originally thought that a six-coach set BSK/SK/CK/CK/SK/BSK could be used for several trains. However, upon studying the CWD, there was just one train so composed listed. We can double up on two trains by swapping over a TSO for an SK and doing a very minor re-marshalling job on it but otherwise all the trains on the long-distance workings will have to be modelled because they were different and distinct. Remember that virtually all the trains appear twice in a day's sequence, e.g. up and down Thames-Clyde, Waverley, Devonian, Leeds - Glasgow and the two Anglo-Scottish sleeping car trains. All the Bradford FS -St Pancras trains worked on an out and back basis starting out from Bradford in the morning.

 

Where we will be able to double up is on the Sheffield locals and on the Leeds-Morecambe/Carnforth workings, where three coach sets (BSK/CK/BSK or CK/BSK/SK) were the norm.

 

Just a thought, but if there was a slight incline down to the lower fiddle yard and a slight incline up to the upper fiddle yard that would lessen the gradient.

 

That's what The Laird is planning to do (see Post #60), with a steeper gradient, for the lighter trains and trains which require re-marshalling, giving access to the upper fiddle yard, whilst the heavier stuff which will stay in set rakes goes 'down below' "because the gradient to the upper yard will be nearly twice as steep".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 1962-63 there was very little standardisation, Dr G-F, and set rakes were almost unheard of on the MML,

Sounds as though you will be making Bachmann shareholders very happy, or Ian Kirk or someone.

 

Any idea yet what proportion of the stock will be MK1 and what won't?

 

I suspect you may start to attract carriage spotters with their smudgy notebooks...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 1962-63 there was very little standardisation, Dr G-F, and set rakes were almost unheard of on the MML, at least as far as the trains serving Leeds were concerned. I originally thought that a six-coach set BSK/SK/CK/CK/SK/BSK could be used for several trains. However, upon studying the CWD, there was just one train so composed listed. We can double up on two trains by swapping over a TSO for an SK and doing a very minor re-marshalling job on it but otherwise all the trains on the long-distance workings will have to be modelled because they were different and distinct. Remember that virtually all the trains appear twice in a day's sequence, e.g. up and down Thames-Clyde, Waverley, Devonian, Leeds - Glasgow and the two Anglo-Scottish sleeping car trains. All the Bradford FS -St Pancras trains worked on an out and back basis starting out from Bradford in the morning.

 

Where we will be able to double up is on the Sheffield locals and on the Leeds-Morecambe/Carnforth workings, where three coach sets (BSK/CK/BSK or CK/BSK/SK) were the norm.

 

 

That's what The Laird is planning to do (see Post #60), with a steeper gradient, for the lighter trains and trains which require re-marshalling, giving access to the upper fiddle yard, whilst the heavier stuff which will stay in set rakes goes 'down below' "because the gradient to the upper yard will be nearly twice as steep".

I'm looking forward to seeing this as I was a regular user of the Thames Clyde to get home to Settle.  From memory both trains were often in Leeds at the same time with all their associated light engine workings with the correct headcodes on the peaks.

 

Jamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may need some Ex LMS 12 wheel sleepers - when I can get it sorted into sense the info I have indicates the trains with "BR" sets - which may or not have had an ex LM kitchen vehicle - but for example the 21:15 ex St Pancras to Glasgow has 1 SLT and 2 SLF - never yet found a photo of this one so if you see i

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also looking forward to seeing this project progress. When I was a child I used to spend much of my summer holidays with relatives in Yorkshire, usually travelling to Leeds and back on the Devonian so this has great sentimental interest for me.

Edited by HSB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interestingly according To Operation Torbay The Devonian in 1957 was the only complete rake of Mk 1's that operated the Torbay branch which at the time, on the Paignton-Bradford journey appears to made up of a Brake third corridor, 2 Third corridors, 2 composite corridors, Dining car, Third open, 2 Third corridors and Brake third corridor All Mk 1s and a Third corridor (Lm design added at Newton Abbot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I should have warned you about this. The GC and CLC stuff (which was what I was interested in and looked at in detail) was the same - I spent three days there....!

Although Andy came up with just over 20 references, each ref, constututed a roll of drawings, and said rolls could contain up to 30 individual drawings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any idea yet what proportion of the stock will be MK1 and what won't?

 

All the Bradford - St Pancras (& return) and the Anglo-Scottish trains were Mark 1 stick in the 1962-63 CWD, with the notable exception of the ex-LMS Period 2 Restaurant First in the two 'Waverley' sets. The 21.30 Bradford - St Pancras was made up of of LMS stock (its return working being the 00.05 St Pancras - Leeds which conveyed the Leeds sleepers. (see below). The Leeds - Morecambe/Carnforth and the Leeds-Sheffield trains were made up of LMS stock. The morning train from Cudworth could have almost anything with wheels in it!

 

Several trains, including the overnight class 1 workings and the morning Leeds-Glasgow and its return in the afternoon, conveyed pre-nationalisation BGs or bogie vans..

 

 

 

You may need some Ex LMS 12 wheel sleepers - when I can get it sorted into sense the info I have indicates the trains with "BR" sets - which may or not have had an ex LM kitchen vehicle - but for example the 21:15 ex St Pancras to Glasgow has 1 SLT and 2 SLF - never yet found a photo of this one so if you see i

 

One of the sleepers in the 00.05 St Pancras - Leeds was an LMS design (the SLF); the SLSTP was a mark 1 coach. All the sleepers in the Up and Down Glasgow and Edinburgh sleeping car trains were diagrammed for mark 1s.

 

They were in Leeds between 2.00 and 3.3o. I wonder why photos of the Sleepers are as rare as hen's teeth? :dontknow: 

 

So we'll definitely be in the market for the Bachman sleepers of both types.

 

Interestingly according To Operation Torbay The Devonian in 1957 was the only complete rake of Mk 1's that operated the Torbay branch which at the time, on the Paignton-Bradford journey appears to made up of a Brake third corridor, 2 Third corridors, 2 composite corridors, Dining car, Third open, 2 Third corridors and Brake third corridor All Mk 1s and a Third corridor (Lm design added at Newton Abbot

 

 

The Devonian was formed as follows on winter weekdays during the same time period (mostly if not all chocolate & cream WR Mark 1 stock) although some evidence points to the RB and one of the BSKs being maroon at some time in the early 1960s.

 

BSK SK SK TSO RB CK SK SK BSK

 

 

I'm looking forward to seeing this as I was a regular user of the Thames Clyde to get home to Settle.  From memory both trains were often in Leeds at the same time with all their associated light engine workings with the correct headcodes on the peaks.

 

Jamie

 

Both Thames-Clydes were in the station simultaneously at one time, now that must have confused people. By 1962-3 there had been some retiming and the up train called between 13.40 and 13.46, while the down rain was in the station from 14.25 to 14.32. During which time train locos were uncoupled and a new loco was attached to the rear, now front, of the train. All through workings reversed in Leeds City North of course.

 

                 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also have a vague memory of gresley buffet cars in some of the sets.

 

Jamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A momentous occasion - the first sod is cut!!

 

As Leander reported earlier, I took delivery of the baseboards in CKD form on Monday morning. What he failed to say was that this consisted of 11 sheets of 6.5mm birch ply! However, undaunted and with my courage clutched firmly in both hands I armed myself with a cutting list and the wood butchery began in earnest yesterday. Despite being defeated at one stage by settling snow, at the end of the afternoon 6 sheets had been slaughtered. The remaining 5 will be attacked today and then the moment of truth, did I get the measurements right!!!

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.........6.5mm birch ply..............

 

Heavier than Bradfield then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.