Leeds City, the Midland Side, in 4mm.

[great northern]

Crikey   thats going to require a lot of carriage sidings and a very big fiddle/staging yard

I did notice when The Laird visited me last week that he kept looking at the contents of my fiddle yard and shuddering. Thank goodness for Bachmann Mk1's, without which projects like this one and mine become almost impossible to contemplate.

[Leander]

I also have a vague memory of gresley buffet cars in some of the sets.

 

Jamie

 

Possibly in the summer timetable and/or on Saturdays Jamie. By 1962/63 sufficient numbers of Mark 1 catering stock were available to render most of the pre-nationalisation vehicles redundant from timetable class 1 services. Many LMS catering coaches were being withdrawn around this time, although I'm aware of the longevity of the LNER Buffet Cars which had been rebuilt in the late 1950s. Incidentally one used to work through to Blackpool from Lincoln behind a 40B Brit on Saturdays in summer 1963.

 

So we're planning to use Bachman Mark 1 RUs with a kitbuilt RK for the Thames-Clyde set and an LMS Period 2 RF on the Waverley at the moment.

 

 

 

 

Edited to correct senior moment!

Edited February 6, 2013 by Leander

[TheLaird]

.... and an LMS Period 2 RF on the Talisman at the moment.

The Talisman? I think Leander means The Waverley!!

[Suddaby]

The Talisman? I think Leander means The Waverley!!

Ha ha, he's finally gone ECML - are you sure he hasn't been secretly working on Leeds Central?

                   

[TheLaird]

Hi John

 

Is this going to be an exhibition layout?

 

Ian

I would rather describe it as being exhibitable!!

[westerner]

 

The Devonian was formed as follows on winter weekdays during the same time period (mostly if not all chocolate & cream WR Mark 1 stock) although some evidence points to the RB and one of the BSKs being maroon at some time in the early 1960s.

 

BSK SK SK TSO RB CK SK SK BSK

 

 

                 

 Interestingly Operation Torbay states that in 1957 all the Mk1s in the Devonian were LM stock.

[Leander]

 Interestingly Operation Torbay states that in 1957 all the Mk1s in the Devonian were LM stock.

 

In 1962-63 the stock used was LMR and WR on alternate days - despite Bradford & Leeds being in the NER by then.

 

Rumour has it that the chocolate & cream set ran with a maroon catering vehicle and one of the BSKs was also maroon. I wonder whether the maroon set had any choc & cream in it?

[Leander]

The Talisman? I think Leander means The Waverley!!

 

 

Ha ha, he's finally gone ECML - are you sure he hasn't been secretly working on Leeds Central?

                   

 

Senior moment gents! OP corrected.

[TheLaird]

 

One down - nine to go!!

[leopardml2341]

How are the legs attached, John?

[TheLaird]

How are the legs attached, John?

They just slot in Andy, nice and simple, the triangular pieces keep them vertical. Nice to know you are still keeping an eye on things!

 

Regards John

[Ian_H]

Board E.jpg

 

One down - nine to go!!

Hi John

 

Following with great interest, as I did with Bradfield, any chance of a photograph from the underside?

 

And why aren't you exhibiting yet? :no:

 

Ian

[MichaelW]

The dedication you are showing to getting things correct really is impressive.  This really did show in the quality of operating on Bradfield, so I'm looking forward to seeing this layout come to fruition.

 

Can I ask a question though, where do you get the information for the make-up of the various trains?  Are you closely examining photos, or is there another source for the information?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Can I ask a question though, where do you get the information for the make-up of the various trains?  Are you closely examining photos, or is there another source for the information?

post 57 - Working Time Tables (WTT) and carriage working documents.  The railways documented everything, as long as you know where to look (or whom to ask) you can find out almost anything about what went where.

 

It'll be like a little time machine when it's finished...

[Leander]

post 57 - Working Time Tables (WTT) and carriage working documents.  The railways documented everything, as long as you know where to look (or whom to ask) you can find out almost anything about what went where.

 

It'll be like a little time machine when it's finished...

 

For Carriage Working Diagram (CWD) documents we've used several on theYahoo BRCoachingStock Yahoo group site http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/?yguid=152282886

 

There is a copy of the MML CWD for the winter timetable of 1962-63, the period in which the layout will be set. These cover all the class 1 trains operating south of Chesterfield (i.e. the St Pancras, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol and Paignton trains). What we don't have from that source are the class 2 pasenger trains to Morecambe/Lancaster/Carnforth and also Sheffield, and the morning Leeds-Glasgow train. We're reliant in the most part on photographs on the net and in books and contemporary magazines to get the formations correct. For the Leeds-Glasgow and its return working, we're using the NER CWDs (which are either slightly earlier or later than our period) but it was a well photographed train particularly leaving Leeds and over the S&C. Our other virtual blank are the parcels trains which worked into and out of Leeds, many of these ran overnight so largely went unobserved and unrecorded.

 

TheLaird is fortunate have a WTT for winter 1962-63 and is our 'bible' for the trains that were scheduled to run, and which will form the basis of the sequence that we're starting to develop.

 

All the CWD data has been entered on a spreadsheet and carriage set numbers allotted to the different sets as was the case on Bradfield. We're yet to start on the loco diagrams and parcels vans.

[Barry O]

Leander

Shouldn't the Waverley include a Period 3 ex LMS catering vehicle? Most had gone by 1962.

 

Barry O

[jamie92208]

For Carriage Working Diagram (CWD) documents we've used several on theYahoo BRCoachingStock Yahoo group site http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/?yguid=152282886

 

There is a copy of the MML CWD for the winter timetable of 1962-63, the period in which the layout will be set. These cover all the class 1 trains operating south of Chesterfield (i.e. the St Pancras, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol and Paignton trains). What we don't have from that source are the class 2 pasenger trains to Morecambe/Lancaster/Carnforth and also Sheffield, and the morning Leeds-Glasgow train. We're reliant in the most part on photographs on the net and in books and contemporary magazines to get the formations correct. For the Leeds-Glasgow and its return working, we're using the NER CWDs (which are either slightly earlier or later than our period) but it was a well photographed train particularly leaving Leeds and over the S&C. Our other virtual blank are the parcels trains which worked into and out of Leeds, many of these ran overnight so largely went unobserved and unrecorded.

 

TheLaird is fortunate have a WTT for winter 1962-63 and is our 'bible' for the trains that were scheduled to run, and which will form the basis of the sequence that we're starting to develop.

 

All the CWD data has been entered on a spreadsheet and carriage set numbers allotted to the different sets as was the case on Bradfield. We're yet to start on the loco diagrams and parcels vans.

I'll trawl through some things I've got for info on the northbound workings.  From memory a lot of the Morecambe trains wer DMU's by that time and I may have some of the numbers recorded but I'll let you know.

 

Jamie

[TheLaird]

Leander

Shouldn't the Waverley include a Period 3 ex LMS catering vehicle? Most had gone by 1962.

 

Barry O

 

In the CWD it is shown as having an ex LMS RF. We are not certain of the exact type as in some photographs it looks like it has got square windows aka period2 but I tend to agree that it would be more likely to be a period 3. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated in identifying it. More problematic though is the ex LMS RKB shown in the Bradford -St Pancras set 11.52 Up (1M28) and 12/15 Down (1N33). There were no new build RKBs but the LMS converted some RCs. One type was a period 1 12w based on a LNWR style and the others were period 3 12w shallow vent type. There were very few of them, not even double figures I believe. I think the early type were withdrawn by late 62, the later ones lasting longer. The problem is no kit or sides for the later one but 247 do the sides for the earlier one, so it could be hobsons choice, again if anyone knows more speak up!!

 

John E.

[TheLaird]

The dedication you are showing to getting things correct really is impressive.  This really did show in the quality of operating on Bradfield, so I'm looking forward to seeing this layout come to fruition.

 

Can I ask a question though, where do you get the information for the make-up of the various trains?  Are you closely examining photos, or is there another source for the information?

 

Leander has mentioned the BR coaching stock group, the other yahoo group I use is the British Railways group from whence came some of the WTT details, if you join the group you can download them from the files section.

 

John E.

[TheLaird]

For those of you that are interested in this sort of thing I have attached some drawings of the baseboard construction. There are a couple of discrepancies where the design has been tweaked and no doubt the design will be modified again in the light of experience as the build progresses. Hopefully you will recognise that it is board E that has been completed first.

 

Overview of the whole layout within the outline of the shed.

 

Boards A to D, the front scenic bit!

 

Boards E to F, the corner boards that the others piggyback on to.

 

The double deck fiddle yard boards g to J.

 

Photos of the underside as requested will be added later.

 

John E

[ianwales]

 More problematic though is the ex LMS RKB shown in the Bradford -St Pancras set 11.52 Up (1M28) and 12/15 Down (1N33). There were no new build RKBs but the LMS converted some RCs. One type was a period 1 12w based on a LNWR style and the others were period 3 12w shallow vent type. There were very few of them, not even double figures I believe. I think the early type were withdrawn by late 62, the later ones lasting longer. The problem is no kit or sides for the later one but 247 do the sides for the earlier one, so it could be hobsons choice, again if anyone knows more speak up!!

 

John E.

 

 

Hi John

 

If you are looking for a specific coach then Allan at Worsley works will do custom etches in 4mm scale if you give him the info on what you want, that is what I have done for the LMS 54ft suburban and he is etching sides for me.

 

Ian

[jamie92208]

I've been trawling through my late father's notebooks and hope that the following may be helpful

 

16-8-62 Seen at Leeds whilst traveling home to Settle from Sheffield,

D14 haling 8 coaches and broken down D25.

43140 2-6-0

45625 4-6-0

All the below seen at Settle on the S & C probably on the Waverley and Thames Clyde

17-8-62 D28

19-8-62 D137, D54,

25-8-62 D162

27-8-62 D26

10-9-62 D8500 (Clayton on delivery)

2-11-62 D72

28-12-62 D22

29-12-62 D23

 

1-10-62 trip from Skipton to Bradford

M50606 M.B.S

D61

41266

 

On the return

M50600

 

6-10-62 Leeds to Settle

at Leeds D32

D60

D148

 

22-10-62 Hellifield to bradford

Seen at SKipton E50607 on 2 car unit.

D33

12-4-63at Skipton

E50264

E50254

D51

 

 

Hope these are of interest to you.

 

Jamie

[Leander]

In the CWD it is shown as having an ex LMS RF. We are not certain of the exact type as in some photographs it looks like it has got square windows aka period2 but I tend to agree that it would be more likely to be a period 3. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated in identifying it. More problematic though is the ex LMS RKB shown in the Bradford -St Pancras set 11.52 Up (1M28) and 12/15 Down (1N33). There were no new build RKBs but the LMS converted some RCs. One type was a period 1 12w based on a LNWR style and the others were period 3 12w shallow vent type. There were very few of them, not even double figures I believe. I think the early type were withdrawn by late 62, the later ones lasting longer. The problem is no kit or sides for the later one but 247 do the sides for the earlier one, so it could be hobsons choice, again if anyone knows more speak up!!

 

John E.

 

 

 

With reference to The Laird's comments regarding the RF in the formation of 'The Waverley'. D1718 and D1810 (P2) and the two period 3 diagrams RF (D1900 and the single car to D2120) all had 24 seats as per the CWD. Comet Models list it as being in the formation of The Waverley on their instruction sheet PDF. However, I note in Jenkinson & Essery 'The LMS Coach' that the last withdrawal of the P2 D1857 is given as 9/62, confirmed by Comet, who might have used E&J as their source of information. Therefore, it might well have been the case that a P3 RF  replaced the P2 coach in the train for the winter timetable. The shallow ventilator style RF D1857 is done by Comet. It's 68' long on 12 wheel bogies.The more conventional looking P3 RF to D1900 is done by 247 Developments (sides only).

 

Theser were 4 coaches built to D1857, and16 to D1900, the last of these went in 1966.

 

The LMR had a fleet of Mark 1 RFs to D17 also with 24 seats but that was because of the LMR's practice of replacing like with like, according to Parkin in the HMRS Mark 1 carriages book. 

 

As for the Bradford train, the 1962-3 CWD confirms the RKB in the Bradford -St Pancras set 11.52 Up (1M28) and 12/15 Down (1N33) as being a pre-nationalisation vehicle, marked by the letter 'Y' to indicate an ex-LMS coach with gangway adapters to connect with the British Standard gangway fitted to mark 1 coaches (among others). The rest of the train is identified as mark 1s (shown by the letter 'Z').

 

Essery & Jenkinson (p. 85) state that "seven LMS standard dining cars were converted to RKBs during the 1952-55 period. Six were to D2180 and these involved the pioneer LMS standard diners, the RCs to D1743, period 1 design and described as "LNWR styled". 247 Developments do a kit for D1743. However the conversion involved replacing several seating bays in the centre of the coach on one side with a buffet counter connected to the kitchen. This entailed the removal of several windows on one side of the coach, which was presumably covered with steel sheeting. This one, D2180, is covered by the estimable Mr Wells of 247 in his Kit number C303. It's a 68' long vehicle running on 6-wheel bogies and would no doubt look very impressive in a train. However, all were withdrawn by the end on 1962 in the great accountants' cull. We're doing the autumn though, aren't we?!

 

The other conversion to RKB was a one-off involving P3 RT No.105, also a 68' long 12 wheeler. This was converted along similar lines to the earlier built coaches, this time to D2182. As far as I can see no one does a kit for this one so it's rather problematic to model.

 

Edit - Breaking news

 

TheLaird has uncovered a photograph of E223M at St Pancras in lined maroon livery. It shows the buffet counter side and the styling is most definitely LNWR. It has a BR coach roundel and 'BUFFET' on the lower panelling on the buffet counter side of the vehicle.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Leander

[TheLaird]

As promised for those who asked, here are some images of the underside of board E. Hopefully this makes it clearer how the legs are attached/unattached.

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Very fetching legs.  What size and wood are they made of?  And the frames/tops, is it 6mm ply?  Inquiring minds wish to know, as I have 14'x18'' of boardyness that needs making and I may have a go at it myself if it's a) simple and b) cheap!