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Leeds City, the Midland Side, in 4mm.


TheLaird
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Hi John,

 

Sorry that the gradient testing didn't work out for you.

 

You mention that there are a number of strategies to overcome the problem, some that you didn't mention are:

 

 - keep Leeds City in your initial time frame of 1962 and abandon 1957 but of course that would be disappointing if you wanted to run steam which I assume you do.

 - make both gradients the same, I guess that would be 1 in 53, but again I'm not so sure the steam engines would even cope with that if pulling a long train.

 - segregate the existing fiddle yards, lower level for Steam and the upper for Diesel

 

Good luck.

 

Ian

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Morning John. My pathological hatred of gradients will now be easier to understand! I have always had the same problems whenever I've tried them, and concluded that for most steam locos 1/100 is the limit, though nearly all diesels have no difficulty with much steeper grades. I wouldn't want to see you abandon the steam element, but I would say that, wouldn't I? As you know, some of my Pacifics have had extra weight added, and provided it goes in the right place it does improve performance considerably. Hornby locos which have tender pick ups can be a problem, as they are prone to sticking and acting as a very efficient brake. I know at least one person who advocates disabling them altogether. 9f's will haul anything by the way, but that won't help you much. The absolute worst of course is a gradient on a curve, but that isn't the case with you, is it?

 

The cassette solution is proving to be brilliant for me though. I can confirm that 6mm MDF, well braced, is surprisingly light and manoueverable, even in four foot lengths, and the potential for more flexible and interesting operating is huge. With your layout in exhibition mode you can even arrange to have spare cassettes on the same level, and avoid the bending down under the baseboard to lift them into place which looks like being the only minor drawback for me. By all means come and have another look when you have time if that might help you to make  a decision.

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 I'm being serious here, just trying to come up with some ideas in case The Laird et al are looking for suggestions. I might be way off the mark, but sometimes, it can be good to look at things from my "over simplified" angle.......

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

 

Always grateful for suggestions Sean, no matter how off the wall they may appear. In my experience it is surprising how often an off the wall remark can trigger thoughts that lead to good solutions!

 

John.

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Further testing continues but just to clear up a few points: Unfortunately Gilbert, the gradients are on curves and there is no way of avoiding that; It was always the intention to run predominantly steam loco's, the diesels being a stop gap solution because they run better and are easier to convert; All the locos and stock are to be converted to EM so fitting different size wheels is not an issue; The testing has been done with rtr Bachmann stock which whilst not lightweight is a lot lighter than some kit built stuff that I would like to be able to run.

 

John E

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Hi John.

 

 

I've followed this thread with great interest after your last effort with Bradfield Gloucester Square which looked fantastic.

 

 

I’m not surprised that the gradients proved too much but you probably guessed that anyway.

 

I can see why you would want an upper & lower storage yard.

 

Eliminate or modify the gradients if possible. Having them on a curve doesn’t help but again I can see the need why.

 

 

I suppose you could shorten the upper yard thereby reducing the gradient. Anything else like adding weight or using stock of a lighter nature will only be a stop gap. Maybe fine for a home based layout but for anything on exhibition would surely be just trouble waiting to happen. The cassette idea would work but where to put them is the problem.

 

 

You could go with only one storage yard on the flat which would enable you to start the approach pointwork earlier & thus increasing the yard length.

 

 

I look forward to seeing what you decide & good luck with your project. I can only admire your skill level. :good:

 

 

 

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Thanks for your reply John.

 

I've had another "off the wall thought".....

 

Perhaps lowering the lower fiddle yard which would mean you could halve the gradient into the upper yard by increasing the, (falling), gradient into the lower yard. Probably a bit too much work involved in this, but again, just a thought.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

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Anything else like adding weight or using stock of a lighter nature will only be a stop gap. Maybe fine for a home based layout but for anything on exhibition would surely be just trouble waiting to happen

 

Totally agree with that, I don't want to do anything at this stage that may cause problems or restrictions later!

 

"The cassette idea would work but where to put them is the problem."

 

The redundant upper yard area!!

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Thanks for your reply John.

 

I've had another "off the wall thought".....

 

Perhaps lowering the lower fiddle yard which would mean you could halve the gradient into the upper yard by increasing the, (falling), gradient into the lower yard. Probably a bit too much work involved in this, but again, just a thought.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Only thing is, it would increase the climb out of it and the lower yard is for the longer, heavier trains.

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Totally agree with that, I don't want to do anything at this stage that may cause problems or restrictions later!

 

"The cassette idea would work but where to put them is the problem."

 

The redundant upper yard area!!

 

Would that cause restrictions in viewing & dealing with stock in the main yard underneath ?

If you had a derailment or problem you would have to take the cassettes off & the cassettes would need to be pretty long to be of any real use in the first place.

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Do you really need all the capacity when you are playing at home, or just for exhibitions? If the latter, then space ought not to be such a huge constraint - just have everything on one level, but remove a portion when at home.

We run the same at home as at exhibitions!

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Would that cause restrictions in viewing & dealing with stock in the main yard underneath ?

If you had a derailment or problem you would have to take the cassettes off & the cassettes would need to be pretty long to be of any real use in the first place.

The problem would be the same if I had the two level fiddle yard, at least with cassettes I could move them. The length would be about 4ft, trains being split and stored in two halves.

 

Some positive news, the class 40 has had its springs adjusted and now performs as well as the other diesels taking 11 to the upper level.

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The problem would be the same if I had the two level fiddle yard, at least with cassettes I could move them. The length would be about 4ft, trains being split and stored in two halves.

 

Some positive news, the class 40 has had its springs adjusted and now performs as well as the other diesels taking 11 to the upper level.

But you still can't get steam up there ?

If the cassettes are only 4ft long then that may be the way to go.

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Genst

 

I mentioned gorilla(snot) glue for use as a traction tyre - trust me it works and will sort out some  (if not all ) of  your problems.  Can I suggest you PM Mike Ede as he has a good way of testing draw  bar pull on most locos. Changing gradients may not solve the problem...

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Genst

 

I mentioned gorilla(snot) glue for use as a traction tyre - trust me it works and will sort out some  (if not all ) of  your problems.  Can I suggest you PM Mike Ede as he has a good way of testing draw  bar pull on most locos. Changing gradients may not solve the problem...

I didn't know that Gorilla Snot had made it over here.   When I was in El Salvador in 2010 some teenagers were joking about Gorilla Snot and it turned out to be a brand of high strength hair gel.  When I was shown some in a shop and saw the lovely graphic on the side of the tub of a gorilla with it's thumb to it's nose, I just had to buy a tub for each of my 3 kids.

 

 

Jamie

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John - Here IS an off the wall idea !

 

Why not try making the fiddle yards as a double deck tray and raise / lower the whole lot on a chain driven mech, a bit like the old Dinky Toys shop carousels..............

 

Andy

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A four foot cassette will comfortably hold four MK1 coaches, in fact there are at least three inches to spare. I don't have the gradient problem, but I was running out of fiddle yard space, and splitting a few eight coach rakes into two cassettes has been a real help. It's really good for parcels trains too - four cassettes gives the ability to create several different trains, which I would think is of even greater benefit on a layout which is going to be exhibited.

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After a meeting on Monday of some of the Ops Team, I have decided to abandon the gradients and go for Gilbert's train cassette idea!! So today, the FY boards have been taken down and we are now back on the level. Just need to re do the board alignment dowels on one joint and raise the legs by 25mm. Of course the approach point-work will all need re designing so back to good old Templot - but not whilst the sun is shining, beer time!!

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After a meeting on Monday of some of the Ops Team, I have decided to abandon the gradients and go for Gilbert's train cassette idea!! So today, the FY boards have been taken down and we are now back on the level. Just need to re do the board alignment dowels on one joint and raise the legs by 25mm. Of course the approach point-work will all need re designing so back to good old Templot - but not whilst the sun is shining, beer time!!

 

Sounds like the sensible option.

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After a meeting on Monday of some of the Ops Team, I have decided to abandon the gradients and go for Gilbert's train cassette idea!! So today, the FY boards have been taken down and we are now back on the level. Just need to re do the board alignment dowels on one joint and raise the legs by 25mm. Of course the approach point-work will all need re designing so back to good old Templot - but not whilst the sun is shining, beer time!!

 

This is undoubtedly the sensible option as the alternative could have proved an operational nightmare in time. There will be more work involved for the FY operator(s) with handling both loco and train cassettes but the trade-offs justify this.

 

It was impressive watching (and listening to) the Fairburn lifting 11 Bachmann mark 1s up the 1:35 but none of the other locos would take 6 up there without being given additional weight. We reckoned we'd need the steam locos weighting up to 12oz./350g approximately for the original plan to be feasible.

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I don't know if the idea is a total non starter due to space considerations but is there any mileage in looking at some of Frank Dyer's "kick back" fiddle yard ideas? That would enable one of the fiddle yards to be built properly and the other (which could be on the same level, is just a pair of tracks (so only using about 4" of baseboard width) with the actual sidings going back, perhaps parallel to and behind the main layout.

 

I have designed quite a few exhibition layouts and I find the work involved with cassettes for long trains is an absolute nightmare, to the extent that I won't have them again unless I am totally out of other ideas!

 

Even with a four carriage train plus a loco, which will fit on a single 4' cassette, a cassette type fiddle yard need so much more attention than a fan of sidings. It is so much easier to be able to have all the trains set up and run them in and bak out again before they require much attention.

 

Just a thought to throw into the pot!

 

Tony

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While working on my layout yesterday I wanted to get a cassette in place to find out how many mineral wagons will go into 4ft. I haven't got round to making racks for the cassettes to sit on yet, so they were all on the floor, and not easy to get at. I discovered that I could lift a 4ft cassette, loaded with 4 MK1 coaches, initially with one hand, and raising it diagonally from the floor. The stock is secured only by pieces of foam as an interference fit at each end. I had no problem getting it far enough up to then get both hands under to transfer it to the baseboard, and the stock didn't move at all. If that can be done with a 3ft 6 inch lift involved there should not be too much trouble if all is being done on the level.

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I think there is always a problem with long cassettes if they have to be lifted and possibly turned rather than slid around on a flat board. It was one of the reasons we got rid of them on Potterbourne and introduced a fan of sidings. There was always the fear that an accidental nudge from another operator  or just catching the end of a cassette would send the lot onto the floor, thus increasing stress levels which became quite tiring over a 2 day show.

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few problems on Herculaneum - 6 car Blue Pullman could be moved on a cassette with no sides - and 16th minerals with a loose coal load are also moved about - better to slide than to lift...

 

just make sure you have easily accessible storage for loaded cassettes and somewhere to put empty ones!

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