Static Grass Tips and Techniques

[allan downes]

Hi Giles.

 

If I were commenting on my Noch grassmaster I would have to amend your sentence to -

 

"Allan, just between you and me, I don't think the Noch GrassMaster is necessarily all it's cracked up to be – and in the best of hands it still leaves ALL of the grass lying flat..."

 

Cheers.

Allan.

 

BTW Giles, we do have a gardener but in the wrong scale so - interested ?!!!

Edited November 28, 2013 by allan downes

[Campaman]

I don't have any of the expensive kit, just a home made flyswatter applicator which does a reasonable job, bit I still find that a 50p pack of balloons helps get more of it standing up.

 

Method:

 

Apply grass using applicator, admire nice Flat grass, leave for a few minutes for glue to start to go off, blow up a balloon and tie off, rub on your cardy to generate static, hold balloon close to your flat grass and watch grass stand on end.

 

Simples...

[Re6/6]

I find that I get good results from my Noch GrasMaster. I have also used the cheaper GreenScenes 'Flockit' machine with equally satisfactory results.

 

I have tried both sorts of glue, GreenScenes 'tacky' stuff and 'Wudcare' fast set PVA (an excellent product sold to the marine industry) with perhaps marginally better results from the 'tacky' stuff. Not much in it really.

 

I've replaced my original Noch machine with their new higher voltage 2.0 version (20,000v) obtained from German suppliers  http://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/produkt/NOCH/27-7-0-188565-010001-0-0-0-0-0-0-grp-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html at an agreeable price (unobtainable over here at the time..probably available by now). This new machine does have an extra 'sieve' with a larger mesh specifically for the new 10mm/12mm fibres and works very well (but strangely the very useful cone accessory is not supplied for getting into those 'difficult little places'!. I've kept the one from the original.)

 

Regarding the flat grass problem, I find that it's important to ensure that the glue medium is in good wet contact with the croc clip on the wire. When it's thoroughly dry (I leave it for a couple of hours..more maybe with the tacky stuff) a gentle vacuum over with an old piece of ladies tights over the end to save losing the inevitable excess up the pipe.This will also pull the fibres into a more vertical position.

 

Andy, I do like your balloon method for upstanding the grass.

 

Being a bog standard amateur I need all the 'technical' assistance that I can get to obtain reasonable results.

 

I can only point people to Gordon Gravett's new 'Modelling Grassland' book, which is a mine of information on grasses and methods etc..

 

 

6mm fibres were used here.

 

6mm with 'flower' ground foam added.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Re6/6

[allan downes]

I don't have any of the expensive kit, just a home made flyswatter applicator which does a reasonable job, bit I still find that a 50p pack of balloons helps get more of it standing up.

 

Method:

 

Apply grass using applicator, admire nice Flat grass, leave for a few minutes for glue to start to go off, blow up a balloon and tie off, rub on your cardy to generate static, hold balloon close to your flat grass and watch grass stand on end.

 

 

 I tried that on the wifes cardy while she was still in it and she got excited.

 

Highly recommended !

[Shepard]

Having recently returned to the hobby after a very long break, I discovered and joined this most valuable site. Unfortunately, like most activities on the web I tend to find there is so much information that it can be a case of the 'woods for trees syndrome' - sorry no pun intended. So I apologise in advance for any laziness on my part in not mining the wealth of information already posted.

I realise modelling has moved on in the last 20 or so years, especially in the area of landscape construction and the materials and techniques now available. This topic on static ground cover I find particularly fascinating and the various examples on the site are indeed impressive. So much so it has kick started me into actually doing something rather than reading about it. Thank you all. 

To that end and noting Alan Downes  post, and here's the laziness kicking in, with all the options that seem to be available, can anyone out there advise on the most sensible option in terms of the actual static applicator and materials available on the market now, or is it you pays your money and takes your choice?

 

Only problem I suspect with sites like this, is that one can spend all ones time surfing not actually doing. But as they say in the forces, "time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted".

 

Sorry for the rambling post, all have a great Xmas and keep up the great work.

 

Shep

[Re6/6]

....... is it you pays your money and takes your choice?

Indeed it is! I find my Noch GrasMaster invaluable, but it is at the 'high end' pricewise, but does give me superb results. Maybe it might be worth you looking at one of these:

http://www.buffersmodelrailways.com/products/scenery-9/scatter-inc-static-grasses/static-grass-applicators/finescale-model-railways-fmrsga-static-grass-applicator/item and start with some short 2mm fibres which are generally available and see how you get on.

 

I haven't tried one myself but it does come highly recommended by a friend who creates quality scenics professionally.

[Shepard]

John,

 

Many thanks for the advice. But it does prompt a further question that's been on my mind since I started following this topic. 

As an engineer, I appreciate that a static system requires some sort of 'electrical potential field' to be set up. I also understand how one can generate static from  friction, with jumpers etc, indeed any movement or activity of the body has the potential to create a static build up, but how does this occur with just a puffer bottle?? Is it just friction through the nozzle? I cannot imagine this to be very effective??

 

Shep

[Giles]

Re 'you pays your money- you takes your choice...'

 

I used to have a Noch GrassMaster, but I sold it and bought the much better (in my opinion) Green Scenes Flock-it for only £75. Interestingly, this is also exactly what another highly respected scenic modeller did as well!

[Re6/6]

Came across this:   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Grass-Carpet-Applicator-Machine-Flocking-for-Plantings-Railway-Landscape-Model/350756333219?_trksid=p2045573.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D16581%26meid%3D3538010280090832685%26pid%3D100034%26prg%3D7839%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D221335081281%26

 

Amazingly cheap. I'm wondering how good it is. It works off 3v batteries so it may be low powered compared to the GrasMaster and Flockit machines which operate using 9v batteries.

 

I'm tempted to gamble the £22.50....It is from Hong Kong but a friend has successfully bought quite high cost Chinese Bachmann stuff....several £100s of stuff which came quite quickly as well.

 

Anybody with any experience of purchasing from China?

 

PS previously posted in 'bargains' thread.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Re6/6

[McRuss]

Hello John,

 

I purchased one of these from a german ebay shop. For me it is well worth the money.

 

Markus

[55F]

I seem to remember reading or being told about an applicator manufactured for the miniature soldier battlescene enthusiasts.....by a company with 'war' in its title. Somewhat cheaper I believe, can anybody help with the correct company name and more to the point, what kind of job does it make?

55f

[Campaman]

 

 

Anybody with any experience of purchasing from China?

 

PS previously posted in 'bargains' thread.

 

 

I have two broken Android 10.2" Tablets purchased from China via amazon, the first one lasted about 3 days, the replacement lasted about a week, luckily got a full refund from Amazon.

 

Delivery took around 3-4 days but I would not purchase anything electronic direct from China again.

 

I did get the first one working again as the charger plug had come un-soldered from the main board, but it died again about 3 weeks later.

[The White Rabbit]

I seem to remember reading or being told about an applicator manufactured for the miniature soldier battlescene enthusiasts.....by a company with 'war' in its title. Somewhat cheaper I believe, can anybody help with the correct company name and more to the point, what kind of job does it make?

55f

 

Are you thinking of War World Scenics? I've had a look on their web-site and could only find http://www.war-world.co.uk/www.war-world.co.uk/info.php?p=4 though I thought they did do a cheaper one. I can't remember if that's from when I spoke to Martyn Rees last year or I saw it reviewed somewhere (or I just dreamt it...). I know sometimes things change, GreenScene used to do a cheaper version around the £25 price point but currently they concentrate on their £75 version. (Incidentally, we've no intention of developing our own device - I'm busy enough already!) 

 

Re performance, generally the higher the voltage the better the results. The sieve fitted also seems to have an effect (the longer the fibres, the wider the mesh needs to be). I've not used a 'fly-swatter' device myself but have seen others (including 'highly respected scenic modellers'   ) use them - they are OK for shorter fibres but I've never seen them work well with longer fibres. 

[55F]

Many thanks for information White Rabbit. Appreciated.

[model-trains]

This is an excellent thread.

 

The grass is so real I was going to fetch the weedol.

 

I cannot wait to get to the position where I can buy one and play with it but, as I look at all the examples and read the messages on here it raises a question for me.

 

I have a river winding below my track it too has banking, steep in places, gradual in others. My question is... would I be best to add the static grass before the realistic water, or add part of the water then the grass then the rest of the water or add all the water then add the grass.

 

Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

[Giles]

I would generally suggest adding the grass afterwards.

There are two reasons for this. Unless you are using a plain sheet of Perspex or similar, you are likely to be using a resin or varnish - and this will probably form a meniscus, and creep up the sides. I therefore like to be able to work on the banks after the water has dried, in order to hide this as much as I can.

Secondly, grass so often over-hangs water, and it's very easy to do it this way round, without again having water creeping up what would otherwise be dry grass.

 

There are bound to be exceptions where doing it the other way round makes sense, but this is certainly my preference!

 

[model-trains]

I would generally suggest adding the grass afterwards.

There are two reasons for this. Unless you are using a plain sheet of Perspex or similar, you are likely to be using a resin or varnish - and this will probably form a meniscus, and creep up the sides. I therefore like to be able to work on the banks after the water has dried, in order to hide this as much as I can.

Secondly, grass so often over-hangs water, and it's very easy to do it this way round, without again having water creeping up what would otherwise be dry grass.

 

There are bound to be exceptions where doing it the other way round makes sense, but this is certainly my preference!

 

 

Thank you for your reply Giles.

 

I thought it best to add the static grass to banks afterwards but having not yet done it and not used realistic water I thought I would float the question. I did wonder whether to add small clumps in odd places as I add the water but do the rest of the grass when the water had dried. Adding the clumps in the water would be guess work having not done any static grass before but I guess the best way is to practice on card and plastic first.

 

Thank you for your suggestions.

 

Your image looks good, I can see the various sizes and your mix of colours.

[The White Rabbit]

For modelling clumps of grass half in the water, if you use pre-made clumps, you may be able to add these while the water is setting, depending on the product you use - Deluxe Materials, whose water I'm using at the moment on a diorama, say after 8-10 hours at room temperature the resin can be textured. I'm guessing if it can be textured, it's flexible enough to take some clumps of grass and - hopefully - sufficiently viscous not to form the meniscus Giles mentions. I've not tried this myself yet, all my water so far has been neatly bordered by quayside walls...  I'm going to find out soon though, as the next but one diorama to build includes a marsh.

 

Noch & Heki do packs of XL fibre clumps and you can also make your own using loose fibres, an electrical applicator and a non-stick surface. For a marsh/bog, I suggest Noch as Heki's tufts are rather wide angled - see my picture in post 11.

 

Another alternative is to let the water dry/set completely and then drill a small hole into it for the grass/reeds. However, I've tried this in the past and if you use a high speed drill, depending on your water product, you can end up with a visible white mark round the hole - presumably from the heat of the drill. 

 

I was going to say never apply static grass using an applicator before the water is completely dry/set, otherwise it's a recipe for disaster, but I have just wondered if a bold and skilfull modeller¹ could apply a light coat over partially set water and the water might hold the fibres firmly enough without letting them sink? I think a little experiment is called for... I'll let you know how I get on. 

 

 

1) What we call someone reckless enough to try a crazy idea and lucky enough that it works... 

[Kal]

John,

 

Many thanks for the advice. But it does prompt a further question that's been on my mind since I started following this topic.

As an engineer, I appreciate that a static system requires some sort of 'electrical potential field' to be set up. I also understand how one can generate static from friction, with jumpers etc, indeed any movement or activity of the body has the potential to create a static build up, but how does this occur with just a puffer bottle?? Is it just friction through the nozzle? I cannot imagine this to be very effective??

 

Shep

The static is only important at the time of application to the glue, because. It polarises the strands, one end is attracted to the device and one to the earth spike, so they stand up.

With the puffer bottle you are just hoping that the force of the air sends the strands at the glue like spears, no static is involved.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Kal

[model-trains]

The static is only important at the time of application to the glue, because. It polarises the strands, one end is attracted to the device and one to the earth spike, so they stand up.

With the puffer bottle you are just hoping that the force of the air sends the strands at the glue like spears, no static is involved.

 

So if one end was attached to the device (bottom of puffer bottle) and the other to the earth spike in the wet glue would that not work as the puffer bottle is turned over and the current is sent through the fibers to the glue and the earth spike?  The next question is what voltage is required, would power from the track to the puffer bottle be sufficient?

[Kal]

So if one end was attached to the device (bottom of puffer bottle) and the other to the earth spike in the wet glue would that not work as the puffer bottle is turned over and the current is sent through the fibers to the glue and the earth spike?  The next question is what voltage is required, would power from the track to the puffer bottle be sufficient?

Hmmm

 

Maybe I did not explain myself properly....  The puffer bottle does not use static*. It relies on the force of the air and aerodynamics of the strands as they travel through the air to force one end of the strand into to the glue and hopefully stand up. 

 

The Static Grass applicators use a high voltage charge to polarise the strands, so that one end of each strand is attracted to the sieve and the other to the earth connection/glue.

 

Two separate physical techniques to achieve the same task.

 

 

* The puffer bottle may add some static, but no more than a plastic bag would.

 

A static Charge is in the order of 10-50kV

Edited January 8, 2014 by Kal

[model-trains]

Hmmm

 

Maybe I did not explain myself properly....  The puffer bottle does not use static*. It relies on the force of the air and aerodynamics of the strands as they travel through the air to force one end of the strand into to the glue and hopefully stand up. 

 

The Static Grass applicators use a high voltage charge to polarise the strands, so that one end of each strand is attracted to the sieve and the other to the earth connection/glue.

 

Two separate physical techniques to achieve the same task.

 

 

* The puffer bottle may add some static, but no more than a plastic bag would.

 

A static Charge is in the order of 10-50kV

 

Hi Kal

 

I did understand what you were saying but, as some plastics can create some static electricity I wondered what charge of electric was required to create the static electricity needed for the static grass.

 

Thank you for your reply

[Kal]

Hi

 

Ok I misunderstood. sorry.

 

10-50kV is the general range if I recall,  I think the DIY fly swatters are about 10K. 

 

For physical, it depends on the two materials and how much static opposition they have.  I understand Rabbit Fur and Silicon are at the far opposite ends of the scale and can make a good charge.

 

I think they sell the bottles on the basis of what you are saying but, from experience of using them, it seems negligible, though that is not a scientific appraisal and so many factors can affect the result. I find it is as i said previously.

 

The One thing that will make the biggest difference is the air condition where you are doing it, in order to obtain a high Static Charge and retain it, you need a very low humidity environment. Any moisture in the air will dissipate the charge very quickly.

 

I suppose people already know this, but I just posted it on the off chance it is useful to someone

Edited January 8, 2014 by Kal

[model-trains]

Hi

 

Ok I misunderstood. sorry.

 

10-50kV is the general range if I recall,  I think the DIY fly swatters are about 10K. 

 

For physical, it depends on the two materials and how much static opposition they have.  I understand Rabbit Fur and Silicon are at the far opposite ends of the scale and can make a good charge.

 

I think they sell the bottles on the basis of what you are saying but, from experience of using them, it seems negligible, though that is not a scientific appraisal and so many factors can affect the result. I find it is as i said previously.

 

The One thing that will make the biggest difference is the air condition where you are doing it, in order to obtain a high Static Charge and retain it, you need a very low humidity environment. Any moisture in the air will dissipate the charge very quickly.

 

I suppose people already know this, but I just posted it on the off chance it is useful to someone

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain what you have.

[model-trains]

Ok two very quick questions;

 

1. If I've applied the first layer of static grass and want to do another layer, do I wait for the first lot to dry, slosh more PVA over the grass and re-apply or should I try and do all the layers with one lot of glue?  Just occured to me that putting more glue on top of the grass may flatten it; happy to be proved wrong though!

 

2. Do I need to put ground cover underneath the static grass first ie a grassmat or other greenery, or just paint the surface green/brown and put the grass straight onto it?

 

 

Thanks

 

David

 

I am not experienced enough to answer your questions but I assume with static grass you add the different sizes and different colours into your container, well mixed and then apply them all in one go.

 

The reason I leave this message is because I too am unsure if the base should be coloured green prior to adding the grass.

 

We look forward to replies from those who know more and have used the system.