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Static Grass Tips and Techniques


MichaelW
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Opinion varies on this, but I would suggest:

 

You don't need to put groundcover down but it certainly doesn't hurt. When putting a base coat of paint down, I use a coat of water-based paint - either GreenScene's textured paint or cheap emulsion depending how thick a coat of fibres I plan to apply [on top]. This is very much the 'slosh it about' application, you don't need to be fastidious. I then throw some scatter and or textured material on and let the paint stick it down. This helps build up colour and texture, but most of this layer will be hidden, so don't put much on or worry about being tidy. When that's dry, time for the glue and first coat.  

 

Second coats are tricky to do, as unless you are only doing tufts here and there, it's not easy to apply the second coat without flattening the first - you are right. If you are careful, you can apply glue to the tips of the existing grass either with a brush or a spray adhesive, but it's not as easy as the first coat. I'd always suggest you make the first coat a good one and as thick as possible - assuming that's the effect you're going for, sometimes you might want sparse grass. Some of the groundcover will show through, how much depends on how good an applicator and glue you have, how thickly you apply the fibres, how closely you look and how good the lighting and your eyes are!

 

It's always better to have just one layer of fibres instead of several - ie if you want 12mm long grass, use XL 12mm fibres not 2/3 layers of 5mm long ones. Second and third layers can be useful to represent very long, tangled grass. But do put other things in there, small plants and weeds as well as bigger bushes. I was looking at an old copy of BRM last week and Re 6/6 had built a diorama of a disused branch which had great vegetation in the cutting and on the hillside, he'd used all sorts of things. (Some pictures in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69876-a-couple-of-snaps-of-netherhope-halt/?hl=netherhope ). And if you go back on this thread you can see Giles hasn't just used grass fibres on his siding diorama either.

 

 

 

Edited to add a link.  

Edited by The White Rabbit
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I make no apologies for reviving an old thread, because one this useful deserves being given a bump to bring it to the attention of those who might not have seen it before.

 

The question I've got that prompted the revival is to ask what others do when trying to apply static grass when in close proximity to things like backscenes, bridge abutments, retaining walls and the like because I've found I simply cannot get the applicator close enough to where I want it to go to do a good job. 

So far, the best results I've had have involved chucking a generous pinch of "grass" at the glue then waving the charged applicator as close to the scene of the action as I can get it in the hope of getting the threads to stand on end  The results have, at best, been no more than okay, and never good enough to get away without introducing some kind of scenic break (a fence, a bush, a clump of weeds or undergrowth) between them and the areas where the applicator could be wielded the way the manufacturer intended.

Hi Mike

 

You have raised the thread in case newby's like me haven't seen it. What you have also done is raised awareness of obstacles which is also very good. As newbies we are probably to busy finding out how to do it and what with we probably would thing of many of the obstacles until we are confronted by them. Hopefully your message will encourage others to share how they have round fencing or fencing posts, close to buildings etc. My thoughts for trees, shrubs and fencing is put them in after the grass but there are bound to be times, particularly if we change things, that we will come across items that are in the way.

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Hi Mike

 

You have raised the thread in case newby's like me haven't seen it. What you have also done is raised awareness of obstacles which is also very good. As newbies we are probably to busy finding out how to do it and what with we probably would thing of many of the obstacles until we are confronted by them. Hopefully your message will encourage others to share how they have round fencing or fencing posts, close to buildings etc. My thoughts for trees, shrubs and fencing is put them in after the grass but there are bound to be times, particularly if we change things, that we will come across items that are in the way.

 

Have a look at posts #28 and #40 on page 2. In the snaps (#40) the 6mm grass was added using the cone attachment  (strangely sold as an accessory and not supplied with the new GrasMaster 2.0). This was added after the fencing was built. When I rebuild the layout more attention will be paid to the cess area.

 

Also the very useful suggestion of using heat to create the 'holy grail' of naturally bending long grasses will be tried! 

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Have a look at posts #28 and #40 on page 2. In the snaps (#40) the 6mm grass was added using the cone attachment  (strangely sold as an accessory and not supplied with the new GrasMaster 2.0). This was added after the fencing was built. When I rebuild the layout more attention will be paid to the cess area.

 

Also the very useful suggestion of using heat to create the 'holy grail' of naturally bending long grasses will be tried! 

 

It looks good :good:

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  • 4 weeks later...

More than one person on this thread has suggested adding salt to the glue in order to improve its electrical conductivity.

I have since tried that on several occasions and have always ended up with a lump of rubbery gloop that caused more problems than it solved.

 

All those who have ever had to endure the ordeal of ballasting will be aware of how adding a squirt of washing up liquid to the glue destroys the surface tension to aid matters and I wonder if it could have a similar effect when using a static grass applicator.

Could anyone with a scientific background advise?

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Hi chaps

 

No scientific answers here, but having just used the FMR applicator for the first time with 2mm grass and 1 part PVA to 2 parts water with perfectly acceptable results I'd say salt was completely unnecessary!

 

Keep it simple, I say...

 

 

David

 

I agree David

 

My concern with salt was not just the reaction with it but unsightly effervescence later.

 

My grass hasn't arrived yet (frustrating) cannot wait to play. Hopefully have it tomorrow or Friday

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  • 1 month later...

1 ml STATIC GRASS

 

I am looking to do a manicured lawn in N gauge and think 1 ml static grass should be the longest fibre as this will create a 6" high lawn.

 

Are there any recommendations for 1 ml static grass. I have conducted searches but only found Deco manufacture to 1 ml. Any ideas?

 

The grass is to go on my layout at:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71151-north-welsh-coast-railway-welsh-dragon-rail/

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

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At that sort of length, is it worth thinking about using Woodland Scenics' fine turf? I know static grass is a great scenic tool - and I am usually an enthusiastic proponent of it - but there are times when it's not right. You mention a "manicured lawn". I think of our village bowling green and how long that is. I appreciate sometimes people use products which are out of scale to get the texture and/or colour, but my suggestion would be to either use WS fine turf or even just green paint, possibly in alternating strips of green and darker green the way some 'formal' lawns are mown? 

 

For short static grass, Noch do some 1.5mm lengths, my suggestion for a lawn colour would be 08214 http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=N08214&r=1

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Anthony, I would have thought that you would have to have a very fine mesh on the applicator for 1mm fibres (if they're obtainable!). My GrasMaster doesn't have one as fine as might be required.

 

Perhaps using the 'old fashioned' dyed surgical lint might be an easier option. Although it is hard to find these days it does have very short fibres on it. It could either directly glued down or glued on fibre side down, let dry and ripped off.

 

Just an alternative thought!

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In the last 18 months fibres became available suitable for N scale and now short fibres are available from Noch, W W Scenics and DoubleO Scenics.

 

Noch's latest version of the GrasMaster does have a very fine mesh that is ideal for working with the shortest of fibres. The mesh on the previous version of the GrasMaster allowed the fibres to fall through before the device was turned on which was no help at all! The latest version of the W W Scenics Pro Grass device also has a fine mesh suitable for working with the shortest fibres.

 

I mm grass does look like a cricket pitch in OO scale!

 

I hope this helps.

 

Peter

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Dear White Rabbit, John and Peter,

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

I have ordered some Noch 08214 and shall experiment with it once delivered. I think 1 ml is feasible in N gauge with the difference in scale. I have borrowed an applicator with a fine sieve and shall see how it goes. Again I shall do some experimentation and see how it goes.

 

I also have some grass mat which I shall lightly spray with paint to vary its colour and see what it looks like. All results will be published.

 

Thank you again for the advice. As a novice train modeller but experienced modeller there has been much to learn. If interested my layout is at

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71151-north-welsh-coast-railway-welsh-dragon-rail/

 

It will comprise Conwy, Penmaenmawr and Bangor when completed. I am focussing on Conwy at eh moment. Planned size is 35 feet by 16 feet.

 

regards,

 

Anthony

Edited by Anthony Ashley
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Anthony,

 

Spread the adhesive on the landscape with a wide flat paintbrush in areas of about 100 square cms a time. If the area is any larger the adhesive will start to dry out before the fibres have been planted.  With the adhesive still wet use the tool to apply static grass fibres.

 

If your layout calls for tall grass or weeds repeat the process a second or third time over the whole or parts of the area to be treated. Just keep on painting adhesive onto planted grass fibres then adding more fibres to build up the height of the grass.

 

If you want to just plant a few areas of taller grass try spraying extra hold hairspray in the area of already planted grass. It acts as a good adhesive for static grass fibres.

 

With a layout that big you'll need an industrial GrasMaster!

 

:-)

 

Your idea of spray colouring grass mats is a good one. Very few folks do it.

 

Look forward to seeing your pictures.

 

Peter

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Dear White Rabbit, John and Peter,

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

I have ordered some Noch 08214 and shall experiment with it once delivered. I think 1 ml is feasible in N gauge with the difference in scale. I have borrowed an applicator with a fine sieve and shall see how it goes. Again I shall do some experimentation and see how it goes.

 

I also have some grass mat which I shall lightly spray with paint to vary its colour and see what it looks like. All results will be published.

 

Thank you again for the advice. As a novice train modeller but experienced modeller there has been much to learn. If interested my layout is at

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71151-north-welsh-coast-railway-welsh-dragon-rail/

 

It will comprise Conwy, Penmaenmawr and Bangor when completed. I am focussing on Conwy at eh moment. Planned size is 35 feet by 16 feet.

 

regards,

 

Anthony

 

Yes, I had a quick look last night, that's a fair size project you have... 

 

Re spraying, if you select a lighter shade of grass fibres than you want to end up with, you can use Model Mates spray dye in Moss Green to darken it. (Usual advice, practice first on an expendable piece, get the feel of the 'break point' of the button, spray pattern etc., etc....) I've been using it this week to tone down some GreenScene scatter I've applied to trees and hedges (I've some photos to take next week) and have also applied it to some grass fibres to see how it looked - OK so long as you have a very light touch. Recommendation comes with not quite the usual disclaimer, we are a trade seller of it but I was a satisfied [retail] customer first, that's why we sell it! I think a lot of modelshops stock it. 

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Dear Peter and White rabbit,

 

Thanks for the information. Peter I was wondering about applying glue of the top of an existing area done with static grass, so you r advice is very helpful and will assist as I continue down the scenic route.

 

White rabbit I shall have to see if I can get the Model mate dyes in Australia. No luck looking on the internet to date but have emailed model mates direct. The internet is a powerful tool and one I could not have started the research for the towns without.

 

Thanks for the advice it is all appreciated.

 

Regards,

Anthony

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Hi Anthony.

 

You can fix static grass fibres to existing scenic finishes BUT in N scale if the underlying texture is rough that will show through any (short) grass fibres. 

 

To remove existing scenic finishes is usually pretty simple by soaking the area in nearly boiling water and scraping off the old materials after a few minutes. This is a good way of lifting unwanted ballast too. This of course depend on the base material for the landscape.

 

If you cannot get Model Mates dyes you can use matt acrylic aerosols holding the can a little way from the scene so it lightly colours it.

 

Looking forward to seeing your pictures idc.

 

Peter

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Dear Peter,

 

More great tips. Thanks again. The base board base board is generally ply painted with primer and top coat. I have been made paranoid about the material warping so have sealed it with paint.  I have contacted model mates and at this time no one imports the spray dye. I might experiment with a very light coat of flat enamel out of a spray can. Only a fait touch to add a little variation to the grass matt I have. 

 

Thanks again.

 

If you have not seen pictures of my layout they are at:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71151-north-welsh-coast-railway-welsh-dragon-rail/page-13

 

Latest pictures are of Conwy castle.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

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  • 3 weeks later...

A report back. Yesterday I did a static grass workshop for members of my local club. Static grass is not readily available here and the electric flyswatters have only just started to appear in local supermarkets.

 

We found that we got good results with a flyswatter with FRESH batteries, this is important because the flyswatter seems to go through batteries very quickly. We had to hold the flyswatter close to the fibres to make them stand up properly. I made an earthing "pin" to go into the glue out of a strip of brass.

 

The Noch puffer bottle only seems to work as a very expensive dispenser and none of us could get very good results with it.

 

The star of the show was the balloon! After using the flyswatter I went over the grass with the balloon. The swatter + balloon combination worked as well as a Noch Grassmaster that someone had brought along.

 

I added a pinch of salt to the water I used to water down the PVA glue. If too much salt is added the glue will dry opaque. I have no idea if the salt makes any difference but a small amount doesn't do any harm.

 

As mentioned by a previous poster, weather does make a difference and getting a good static charge in damp weather will be more difficult.

 

As an N gauge modeller I prefer the medium length fibres even if they are a bit over scale for N. For short grass I don't use static grass but use Woodlands Scenics fine turf. I tend to use static grass on embankments, riversides and other overgrown areas.

 

I've had a lot of fun experimenting with static grass and the flyswatter, something I would not have tried if the expensive Noch Grassmaster had been the only option.

 

Regards

 

Veronica.

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I have been mocked for suggesting the balloon in my previous post on this thread but as you have found it works and works well.

 

I use rechargeable batteries in my fly swat as they stay at full power for longer but drop off quicker at the end, then cheap Poundland balloons, use the long thin ones for hard to reach areas :-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well this is a fascinating thread, especially as I am finally approaching the point of doing some grass areas on my own layout. I don't have any kit to do it with yet but I'll keep following this with interest.

 

As a scientist (actually a biologist rather than a chemist or physicist so I may not quite have the whole picture) I might make the following observations.

 

Scenic glues like PVA are (as I understand it) basically water based so any ionic compounds (such as salt) added to the water will improve electrical conductivity (assuming the other ingredients cannot form ions or are too large to move freely in the solution). The more viscous (sticky) the solution is the more the movement of larger ions is likely to be hindered. So simple watering down may be sufficient to improve the conductivity of the glue alone. Only a small amount of salt will contribute significantly to the conductivity of the water (you cannot pass a current through absolutely pure water but even tap water has enough ions in to pass a current. Maybe here the ionic status of your local water supply might even have an effect). 

 

I assume :scratchhead: the puffer bottles are supposed to work on the same principal as the baloon clearly does. Shake the bottle of fibres vigorously and you can generate a static charge (just like rubbing the ballon) by knocking electrons off one of the two materials and onto the other. This may be enough to cause some alignment of the fibres as they will reply one another. The seive encourages them to start out in line and the charge helps to keep them there. However as commented above, moisture in the air will dissipate the charge so try on a nice cold, clear day. Cold air holds less moisture. Static applicators presumably just increase the charge applied to the fibres making them less susceptible to the effects of moisture in the air.

 

Bring on the physicists to shoot me down in flames :triniti:  .

 

Oh and something I've not noticed modelled yet. If you have livestock in a field surrounded by a wire / rail fence notice that the grass will be cropped short on the outside of the fence as far as the animals can stretch their heads through :jester:.  No long grass along the bottom of the fence on the inside.

 

Adrian

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Well this is a fascinating thread, especially as I am finally approaching the point of doing some grass areas on my own layout. I don't have any kit to do it with yet but I'll keep following this with interest.

 

As a scientist (actually a biologist rather than a chemist or physicist so I may not quite have the whole picture) I might make the following observations.

 

Scenic glues like PVA are (as I understand it) basically water based so any ionic compounds (such as salt) added to the water will improve electrical conductivity (assuming the other ingredients cannot form ions or are too large to move freely in the solution). The more viscous (sticky) the solution is the more the movement of larger ions is likely to be hindered. So simple watering down may be sufficient to improve the conductivity of the glue alone. Only a small amount of salt will contribute significantly to the conductivity of the water (you cannot pass a current through absolutely pure water but even tap water has enough ions in to pass a current. Maybe here the ionic status of your local water supply might even have an effect). 

 

I assume :scratchhead: the puffer bottles are supposed to work on the same principal as the baloon clearly does. Shake the bottle of fibres vigorously and you can generate a static charge (just like rubbing the ballon) by knocking electrons off one of the two materials and onto the other. This may be enough to cause some alignment of the fibres as they will reply one another. The seive encourages them to start out in line and the charge helps to keep them there. However as commented above, moisture in the air will dissipate the charge so try on a nice cold, clear day. Cold air holds less moisture. Static applicators presumably just increase the charge applied to the fibres making them less susceptible to the effects of moisture in the air.

 

Bring on the physicists to shoot me down in flames :triniti:  .

 

Oh and something I've not noticed modelled yet. If you have livestock in a field surrounded by a wire / rail fence notice that the grass will be cropped short on the outside of the fence as far as the animals can stretch their heads through :jester:.  No long grass along the bottom of the fence on the inside.

 

Adrian

Thanks for taking the time to explain that Adrian. Always helps to get the 'theory' behind the practice. :)

 

Trevor

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  • 6 months later...

As somebody new to static grass I'd like to add my twopennorth. I bought a fly swat from Poundland (it only cost a £1) and a kitchen sieve from Poundland (it only cost a £1) and a tub of PVA glue from Poundland (it only cost a £1). I butchered the swat and sieve and added a 4mm socket in the handle (from my scrapbox) as used by multimeters etc. This means I can plug in different length leads and put a croc clip or other appropriate end on. I mix a little PVA with brown or green acrylic, or even a mixture. I mix them on the surface to be grassed. Spread the mixture fairly thin. Insert any old nail, panel pin, screw etc into the glue, probably somewhere in the middle. Now, BEFORE I put any grass in the sieve I connect the croc clip, turn on the swat and touch the edge of the sieve on the paint/glue mixture at the furthest point from the nail. You should see a small spark. It will depend on glue/ paint/distance/electronics..........but that spark tells me the circuit is working. Now I put the grass mixture in the sieve and grass away. Pedants may like to investigate the verb 'To grass', as opposed to 'To grass up'.

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I finished up bolting the sieve to the swat, mainly because when I attempted to bend the sieve handle, intending just to tape it on, the welds gave way and it fell off. The hardest part of the whole operation was making the two holes in the stainless steel frame of the sieve. I broke two drills, then gave up and bashed them through with a 3mm punch over a slightly open metalwork vice. It was still a pain to file the burrs down.

I'm an OAP (cue violins) so everything has to be done reasonably cheap. I haven't bought any long grass yet, but it seems to work ok with the short stuff.

PS Looking at the close up of the test piece, the grass doesn't seem to be sticking up much. I think this is because the press button on the swat was very iffy. If you notice the press button in the pictures is a new one. This was replaced after the test and before the pictures.

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post-15258-0-44648000-1417080582.jpg

post-15258-0-10264800-1417080600.jpg

post-15258-0-14706500-1417080616.jpg

Edited by cliff park
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