RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2015 There has been a bit of a debate on GN main line reporting numbers somewhere on RMWeb recently. I didn't take much notice of the details as it is a bit remote from South or Mid Wales, but one thing I do remember was that there was one rule for trains purely on the main line and another for those which crossed regional boundaries; also that the codes changed at some point in the late 1950s. It might have been on one of the threads where photographers put up their photos. There are two I look at regularly and both are near the top of the list in the Prototype discussions section as they have both posted new photos today (one recently posted photos of High Dyke, so it may have been in his thread). Yes, 1B66 or 2B66 for Cambridge, at least in the 1970s. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The wonders of the Internet. Will anyone out there help me, please? I've been commissioned to write (at least) one more book by Irwell on diesel days. Apparently Into The Blue has sold very well (despite a missing caption), and a follow-up is planned. This time it's more Region-specific, in fact line-specific. It's also going to include green diesels. The line (of course) is the GN main line, and the period 1960-1980. I'm providing the blue diesel pictures and a few of the green ones. The majority of the green ones were taken by the late Andrew Forsyth. These are superb, showing every type of class (including the one-offs). My request? Though I have the GN four-digit train-reporting numbers for most of the main line Down trains, my lists for 1960-1967 don't include the Up. The convention was (is this right?) even for Down and odd for Up. I've also come across some confusion as to which departure-point/destination the letters refer to. 'A', I think, is an express to and from Newcastle/Edinburgh and 'B' and 'E', the West Riding. 'S' (again, I think), refers to a service going further into Scotland. This is what my lists suggest, but then 'The Master Cutler' appears in one picture as '1G' something. 'B', also appears to refer to Cambridge trains. So, can anyone out there supply me with the appropriate lists, please? Or, point me in the direction of a suitable publication, please? I can't offer much in the way of royalties, apart from copies of the book. Many thanks in anticipation. Please PM me if you think it's easier. Chronicles of Napier is a good source for East Coast Class 1 headcodes: http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/report.htm Until the codes all changed in May 1969, A was an East Coast express, so typically King's Cross-Newcastle or beyond (even numbers down, odd numbers up seems to have been the system). B was for trains from within the ER to the King's Cross district. King's Cross-West Riding trains were N and in the up direction were E, as they were going to the NER and to the ER respectively. Lots of codes changed in March 1967. In 1963/4 Winter, the up Master Cutler Pullman was 1B20 and the untitled later up working of the stock - unofficially referred to as the Sheffield Pullman - was 1B21. The down trains were 1G60 ('Sheffield Pullman') and 1G61 (Master Cutler Pullman). I have some WTTs from the 1960s and most of the King's Cross ones for the 1970s too so can probably answer most questions about headcodes. As headcodes are not 100% reliable, cross-checking against other sources such as carriage workings is advisable for the passenger trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 There has been a bit of a debate on GN main line reporting numbers somewhere on RMWeb recently. I didn't take much notice of the details as it is a bit remote from South or Mid Wales, but one thing I do remember was that there was one rule for trains purely on the main line and another for those which crossed regional boundaries; also that the codes changed at some point in the late 1950s. It might have been on one of the threads where photographers put up their photos. There are two I look at regularly and both are near the top of the list in the Prototype discussions section as they have both posted new photos today (one recently posted photos of High Dyke, so it may have been in his thread). Yes, 1B66 or 2B66 for Cambridge, at least in the 1970s. Jonathan Although trains to Cambridge became P in the mid-1970s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hi Tony To add to Robert's posts, here is a table of ER headcode second figures that I done for a headcode article for DEMUs Update magazine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Chronicles of Napier is a good source for East Coast Class 1 headcodes: http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/report.htm Until the codes all changed in May 1969, A was an East Coast express, so typically King's Cross-Newcastle or beyond (even numbers down, odd numbers up seems to have been the system). B was for trains from within the ER to the King's Cross district. King's Cross-West Riding trains were N and in the up direction were E, as they were going to the NER and to the ER respectively. Lots of codes changed in March 1967. In 1963/4 Winter, the up Master Cutler Pullman was 1B20 and the untitled later up working of the stock - unofficially referred to as the Sheffield Pullman - was 1B21. The down trains were 1G60 ('Sheffield Pullman') and 1G61 (Master Cutler Pullman). I have some WTTs from the 1960s and most of the King's Cross ones for the 1970s too so can probably answer most questions about headcodes. As headcodes are not 100% reliable, cross-checking against other sources such as carriage workings is advisable for the passenger trains. Robert, My most grateful thanks. Trains in question to be identified include (in no particular order)... 1A37, summer '64. 1B24, summer '67 1E04, spring '63 1B66, summer '68 1A13, spring '64 1L59, spring '64 2B66, summer '64/'65 1A31, summer '67 1A30, spring '64 1E10, spring '64 1A03, spring '64 3B14, spring '63 - this is a Pullman working. Empty stock, though it's at Oakley Park? 2B65, spring '64 2B66, spring '68 (2B66 in 1965 was gangwayed stock; this is non-corridor. 1A66, spring '62 1G60, spring '64 - a Pullman 1N10, spring '61 1B06, spring '62 1E36, 'spring '67 1E08, summer '62 1E10, spring '64 1N21, autumn '63 1L60, summer '63 - Kings +-Cleethorpes? 1A01, spring '63 As mentioned, these are fantastic pictures, and will make a great book I'm sure (even if half of those included will be mine). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Hi Tony The 1B and 2B headcodes were for "suburban" trains within the Knigs Cross division. The last two digits were for the route. 60 Kings Cross and New Barnet 61 Kings Cross and Potters Bar 62 Kings Cross and Hatfield and Dunstable Branch 63 Kings Cross and Welwyn Garden City 64 Kings Cross and Hitchin 65 Kings Cross or Hitchin and Baldcock or Royston 66 Kings Cross or Hitchin and Cambridge 67 Kings Cross and Gordon hill 68 Kings Cross and Crews Hill to Hertford (North) 69 Kings Cross and Finsbury Park If the third digit was a 7 the train was to or from Moorgate, 8 substitute Kings Cross with Finsbury Park or Ferme Park service and a 9 was for Broad Street workings. As they were for the route a train with the headcode 2B66 was an ordinary passenger, corridor stock, non-corridor stock or a DMU travelling between Kings Cross and Cambridge either up or down. This makes the working quite hard to identify. DMUs only had 2 figure headcodes and showed 2B, ordinary passenger working within the Kings Cross Division. Huntington and Peterborough trains also had B as their second figure with the 3rd and 4th digits applying to individual trains. Edited February 11, 2015 by Clive Mortimore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I could use some help on what the head codes were for the Liverpool St suburban services, just after the 1960 electrification. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 I could use some help on what the head codes were for the Liverpool St suburban services, just after the 1960 electrification. Andy Hi Andy The GER lines also used the last two digits for indicating the route with an O for fast trains and a L for stoppers, up until 1965. When the second figure, the letter was used to indicate the route and the last two figures the train. I will scan in the 1961 codes later today and send via a PM. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LNER4479 Posted February 11, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted February 11, 2015 Hello Tony, To return to the periodic discussion of 'the end of kit building?', I hope the following story will gladden the heart. My father (who you have met) has been a railway modeller all his life - shall we say for at least 60 years - starting with HD 3-rail. In all that time, he has only ever bought and used RTR stock and contented himself with renumbering, adding crews, front couplings, that sort of thing. The few kit built locos he has have all been built by others (including a few by me). In short, he has never (kit-)built a loco in his life... [Jeremy Clarkson voice 'on'] ...until NOW! What you see here is a SEF body kit, mounted on an RTR chassis (Bachmann Jinty). So everything from the footplate above is his own work. He stuck it together (Evostick) and painted it himself. Not requiring the Jinty body, he prised off the latter's sprung buffers and fitted these to the kit, along with the reversing lever. He just said he found himself at a bit of a loose end, recovering from a Xmas cold, so ordered the kit, got hold of the RTR loco (from his local shop) and just got on with it! He now says he wants to build a J35 or J37 along similar lines. I'm gobsmacked (and a little bit emotional actually!). Just goes to show... 22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 Excellent. He must keep his first kit-built loco to compare with his later builds that will now take place. Just wait 'till he sees a DJH Pacific........... P 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardle Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Sent the following info to Tony this morning and thought it might be useful to others. 1A37 12.40 from Newcastle to KX "The Northumbrian" (from winter 62/63 WTT) 1E04 07.29 from Bradford, o7.50 from Leeds to KX (from winter 62/63 WTT) 1A13 07.45 from Sunderland to KX (from winter 62/63 WTT) 1L59 16.05 KX to Cleethorpes (from winter 62/63 WTT) 1A31 was, I believe, the 11.00 from Newcastle to KX via Stockton in the early 60s but I don't have a 67 WTT 1A30 14.00 KX to Edinburgh (from winter 62/63 WTT) 1E10 11.34 from Harrogate, 11.39 from Bradford to KX (from winter 63/64 WTT) 1A03 07.50 from Newcastle to KX (from winter 62/63 WTT) 1A66 20.20 from KX to Edinburgh (from winter 61/62 WTT) 1G60 11.20 KX to Sheffield "The Sheffield Pullman" (from winter 63/64 WTT) 1N10 10.20 KX to Leeds/Bradford/Hull (from winter 61/62 WTT) 1E08 10.07 from Harrogate, 10.15 from Bradford to KX "The Yorkshire Pullman" (from winter 61/62 WTT) 1N21 15.20 KX to Leeds/Bradford (from winter 63/64WTT) 1L60 18.50 KX to Cleethorpes (from winter 63/64 WTT) 1A01 07.45 from York to KX (from winter 63/64 WTT) I think the above is accurate but I stand to be corrected! Geoff Hodson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Hi Tony To add to Robert's posts, here is a table of ER headcode second figures that I done for a headcode article for DEMUs Update magazine. ER heads.png Something tells me that the "P" reference to Barton and Holland, will be Barton on Humber and New Holland (Town or Pier). Town??, the last time I looked there were about six houses in New Holland Town, mind you it was in 1970! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 ...here is a SEF body kit, mounted on an RTR chassis (Bachmann Jinty).... He now says he wants to build a J35 or J37 along similar lines... Do any of the kit suppliers list the currently in production 'best fit' RTR mechanism for their kits? There's nothing like getting to a running result to build the enthusiasm; that was how I got my start - though not with such a good end result - and anything that gets folk to that stage must help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Don't know the direct answer to your question but, for interest, he had one of these (Wills Caley tank) built for him 30 years ago(!) and it was mounted on a HD R1 0-6-0 chassis and performed station pilot duties for many years on his previous layouts. More recently, he decided to upgrade it and tried fitting it to a Jinty chassis - result! So with this one, he knew exactly what to do. And - with the greatest respect to HD - the new chassis is a great improvement. So his newly-built creation just purrs around the station, good at slow shunting, delayed starting etc. So he's really chuffed (ooh, tabloid editors eat your hearts out!) with his new loco. And I fully agree - a great boost to getting to the 'I made that' stage with your first one or two. I shall have to encourage him to wield a soldering iron though. For the last 60 years those things have only ever been to attach wires to the side of the track... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Hello Tony, To return to the periodic discussion of 'the end of kit building?', I hope the following story will gladden the heart. My father (who you have met) has been a railway modeller all his life - shall we say for at least 60 years - starting with HD 3-rail. In all that time, he has only ever bought and used RTR stock and contented himself with renumbering, adding crews, front couplings, that sort of thing. The few kit built locos he has have all been built by others (including a few by me). In short, he has never (kit-)built a loco in his life... [Jeremy Clarkson voice 'on'] ...until NOW! Caley_3300_LR.jpg Caley_3301.JPG Caley_3302.JPG What you see here is a SEF body kit, mounted on an RTR chassis (Bachmann Jinty). So everything from the footplate above is his own work. He stuck it together (Evostick) and painted it himself. Not requiring the Jinty body, he prised off the latter's sprung buffers and fitted these to the kit, along with the reversing lever. Caley_3304.JPG He just said he found himself at a bit of a loose end, recovering from a Xmas cold, so ordered the kit, got hold of the RTR loco (from his local shop) and just got on with it! He now says he wants to build a J35 or J37 along similar lines. I'm gobsmacked (and a little bit emotional actually!). Just goes to show... Brilliant stuff, Graham. My compliments to your dad. Though no doubt some critics will mull over how to snipe, I'm sure the following will be true. Out of all the RTR stuff he might have and out of all the stuff others might have built for him, this little Caley 0-6-0 will give him the greatest pleasure. Why? Because he's done it himself, he hasn't just 'opened a box' and he hasn't written a cheque for someone else to do it for him. Though the first two options might be 'his' by possession, the little tank is much more 'his' - it's his by his own hand, and so much the better for it. Roger, you've joined the ranks of real modellers in my book! Good on you. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I have a feeling the chassis from my yard shunter (Thomas) will go straight into any of the old BEC bodyline kits I have lying about with perhaps a modicum of fiddling with the attachment points. Hornby haven't really changed it since the 1970s other than improving the mechanism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 Something tells me that the "P" reference to Barton and Holland, will be Barton on Humber and New Holland (Town or Pier). Town??, the last time I looked there were about six houses in New Holland Town, mind you it was in 1970! Hi John Only copied what is in the Ian Allan 1962 headcode book, but I think it is referring to Barton on Humber and New Holland, because Barton -le-Clay and Holland-on Sea didn't have railways go to them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 As contributors to this thread are such helpful souls, I am going to ask, what might seem for anyone interested in the LNER/BRER, some simple questions . Those darn Thompson Coaches! I have a set of Southern Pride Thompson sides for a D351 (PV First open). They have the 'skirts' of course, however I am led to believe there were just three PV versions + other conventional builds to this(?) Diagram? If that is the case, I can snip off the PV skirts on the sides and do a Baccy/ SP conversion. If not, well I can just do a conversion and use it for post 1962 'excursion' work!! There is little info on any of these coaches (none on Opens?) in either my Harris or on my ancient Campling Drawings. Apart from getting the excellent Isinglass Drawing, is there any other source of info that would help with details, especiaily the roof arrangements? I'm quite sure conventional roof vents on an Open would not be as they were on Corridor coaches.......? I do apologise if this is common knowledge, however Tony will understand why I'm asking as he has kindly introduced me to coach conversion and some Thompsons for 'Excursion Work' are required. (Post 1962 presumably, however some 'conventional' builds may have been cascaded earlier?) Thanks all. Phil @ 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Harris list all the Thompson diagrams it should say if PV or not when built. The extended sides were for the Scotsman later Elizabethan sets (as far as I know) only. Does it not say in the instructions re Roof layout? The ones I have of other diagrams have drawings etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Robert, My most grateful thanks. Trains in question to be identified include (in no particular order)... 1A37, summer '64. 1B24, summer '67 1E04, spring '63 1B66, summer '68 1A13, spring '64 1L59, spring '64 2B66, summer '64/'65 1A31, summer '67 1A30, spring '64 1E10, spring '64 1A03, spring '64 3B14, spring '63 - this is a Pullman working. Empty stock, though it's at Oakley Park? 2B65, spring '64 2B66, spring '68 (2B66 in 1965 was gangwayed stock; this is non-corridor. 1A66, spring '62 1G60, spring '64 - a Pullman 1N10, spring '61 1B06, spring '62 1E36, 'spring '67 1E08, summer '62 1E10, spring '64 1N21, autumn '63 1L60, summer '63 - Kings +-Cleethorpes? 1A01, spring '63 As mentioned, these are fantastic pictures, and will make a great book I'm sure (even if half of those included will be mine). From a combination of WTTs and Chronicles of Napier website: 1A37, summer '64 – SX was 1240 Newcastle-King's Cross but was 10.10 from Edinburgh on Saturdays, which may be when the photo was taken. Unless you have an exact date, cross-checking to the carriage workings may help 1B24, summer '67 – 1632 SX Doncaster-King's Cross 1E04, spring '63 – 0722 Bradford-King's Cross (0747 ex-Leeds). 1B66, summer '68 – usually Cambridge Buffet Express 1A13, spring '64 – 0745 Sunderland-King's Cross 1L59, spring '64 – 1605 King's Cross-Cleethorpes 2B66, summer '64/'65 – Cambridge stopping 1A31, summer '67 – 1200 Edinburgh-King's Cross (but 1035 Newcastle-King's Cross on Summer Sundays) 1A30, spring '64 – 1400 King's Cross-Edinburgh (The Heart of Midlothian) 1E10, spring '64 – 1139 Bradford-King’s Cross (1214 ex-Leeds) 1A03, spring '64 – 0750 Newcastle-King's Cross 3B14, spring '63 – cannot identify but the formation might identify which train the stock worked if it is Pullman Cars as each train was very distinctive 2B65, spring '64 – King’s Cross-Hitchin/Baldock/Royston or return 2B66, spring '68 (2B66 in 1965 was gangwayed stock; this is non-corridor) - King’s Cross-Cambridge or return stopping 1A66, spring '62 – 2020 King’s Cross-Edinburgh 1G60, spring '64 - a Pullman – 1120 King’s Cross-Sheffield Victoria 1N10, spring '61 – my King’s Cross Suburban WTT does not list the headcodes 1B06, spring '62 – might be an incorrect code as there was a 2B06 Peterborough-King’s Cross and a 1B07 (also from Peterborough) and a Sunday 1B08 from Grantham. 1E36, 'spring '67 – cannot find this for either 1966-7 Winter or 1967-8 timetables, the latter of which commenced on 6 March. 1E08, summer '62 – up Yorkshire Pullman, SX: 0956 Harrogate-King’s Cross (1004 ex-Bradford, 1034 ex-Leeds); SO: 1037 ex-Harrogate, 1047 ex-Bradford, 1117 ex-Leeds (formation will identify whether it was the SX or SO working) 1E10, spring '64 – 1139 Bradford-King’s Cross (1214 ex-Leeds) 1N21, autumn '63 – 1520 King’s Cross-Leeds/Bradford 1L60, summer '63 - Kings +-Cleethorpes – 1850 King’s Cross-Cleethorpes (1830 on Sundays) 1A01, spring '63 – 0743 York-King’s Cross Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Hello Tony, To return to the periodic discussion of 'the end of kit building?', I hope the following story will gladden the heart. My father (who you have met) has been a railway modeller all his life - shall we say for at least 60 years - starting with HD 3-rail. In all that time, he has only ever bought and used RTR stock and contented himself with renumbering, adding crews, front couplings, that sort of thing. The few kit built locos he has have all been built by others (including a few by me). In short, he has never (kit-)built a loco in his life... [Jeremy Clarkson voice 'on'] ...until NOW! Caley_3300_LR.jpg Caley_3301.JPG Caley_3302.JPG What you see here is a SEF body kit, mounted on an RTR chassis (Bachmann Jinty). So everything from the footplate above is his own work. He stuck it together (Evostick) and painted it himself. Not requiring the Jinty body, he prised off the latter's sprung buffers and fitted these to the kit, along with the reversing lever. Caley_3304.JPG He just said he found himself at a bit of a loose end, recovering from a Xmas cold, so ordered the kit, got hold of the RTR loco (from his local shop) and just got on with it! He now says he wants to build a J35 or J37 along similar lines. I'm gobsmacked (and a little bit emotional actually!). Just goes to show... Good for him! Very definitely one of the better "first attempts" that I've seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2015 Harris list all the Thompson diagrams it should say if PV or not when built. The extended sides were for the Scotsman later Elizabethan sets (as far as I know) only. Does it not say in the instructions re Roof layout? The ones I have of other diagrams have drawings etc. Thanks. I have not looked at the 'Diagram Index' yet. I should have done before asking, so that is a bit silly of me. You are correct. PV stock was used for the Scotty and Junior Scotty and then the Elizabethan until 1962 (and that's about all I know). In my question post I was actually referring to the main Harris text and photo's where I couldn't find anything really helpful for my needs about condition of vfehicles when cascaded.. The sides I have are for a PV coach so it has PV vents and a diagram showing those. That will be OK I presume, if the coach stayed that way when cascaded out of the PV train sets. However I was seeking advice, amongst other things, as to whether conventional vents would have been fitted (somehow I doubt it if the coach was more or less redundant?) Perhaps I did not make my questions concise enough; that's my muddled head at the moment, so apologies. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) As contributors to this thread are such helpful souls, I am going to ask, what might seem for anyone interested in the LNER/BRER, some simple questions . Those darn Thompson Coaches! I have a set of Southern Pride Thompson sides for a D351 (PV First open). They have the 'skirts' of course, however I am led to believe there were just three PV versions + other conventional builds to this(?) Diagram? If that is the case, I can snip off the PV skirts on the sides and do a Baccy/ SP conversion. If not, well I can just do a conversion and use it for post 1962 'excursion' work!! There is little info on any of these coaches (none on Opens?) in either my Harris or on my ancient Campling Drawings. Apart from getting the excellent Isinglass Drawing, is there any other source of info that would help with details, especiaily the roof arrangements? I'm quite sure conventional roof vents on an Open would not be as they were on Corridor coaches.......? I do apologise if this is common knowledge, however Tony will understand why I'm asking as he has kindly introduced me to coach conversion and some Thompsons for 'Excursion Work' are required. (Post 1962 presumably, however some 'conventional' builds may have been cascaded earlier?) Thanks all. Phil @ 36E Phil, Bring the sides along when you next come for 'tuition' (you're still much in the black, me in the red!), and I'll snip off the sides. According to my early Harris, three FOs were built in 1948 for service in the 'Flying Scotsman' (two for each set, one spare/Junior Scotsman). These were Dia. 351, numbered 1956-58 and were pressure-ventilated; that is covered solebars and just two 'monsoon' ventilators on the roof over the ends. These then saw service in the 'Capitals Limited' up to 1953 when the non-stop became 'The Elizabethan'. In 1956 the RK and FO were taken out, an RF being substituted. The FOs then went into 'ordinary' trains (though exactly which I don't know). I'm told that as a single-unit in a train, the PV vehicles tended to try to vent the whole lot (they were not really air-conditioned, but pumped in fresh air at a slightly higher pressure). Anecdotal evidence (now late, I'm afraid) suggested that the system was over-worked in trying to vent adjacent carriages through the vestibules and could break down. Without normal ventilators and fewer sliding window ventilators, passengers could have cooked in high summer. Anyone else heard this? It could be apocryphal. Of course, there are modern-day tales of air-conditioning breaking down. Shortly after I left Wolverhampton, a band of passengers mutinied from a wretched Virgin Voyager outside Penkridge after it broke down and they were melting in high summer. Authority was dismissed, windows were broken and the freedom fighters walked to the station and sought taxis! Three more FOs were built in 1949 to Dia. 351, numbered 1972-74. Whether these were pressure-ventilated isn't clear, so probably not. Thus, normal roof vents (on the centre line of the carriage, not the compartments) and exposed solebars. This business of covered solebars can be a bit misleading, particularly later in a coach's life. Though aesthetically-pleasing, the covering of the solebars by extending the body-sides caused a real moisture-trap, between the thin sides and the massive solebar. The sides rotted, and some PV cars had the solebar coverings latterly removed, particularly on the ex-streamlined stock. Edited February 12, 2015 by Tony Wright 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ah, thank you Mr W. I have, as MickLNER suggested, been going through my 'Harris Index' and identified what appears to be the non PV Diagrams. Thanks for the clarification on the roof vent position; that's really helpful. I'm sure other small mods would, as you say, have taken place. What you might have forgotten is that back in the mists of whenever, you trimmed two oft these SP PVs for me and it is only now that I am approaching the conversion of the same. You may remember though that when we were looking at some Cleethorpes/Sidmouth workings in my Ivo Peters Volume S & D JR 1960 1962, using ER stock there appeared to be a Thompson FO in the make up! What's that doing there we exclaimed! I suspect that I/we may have to be 'imaginative within the bounds of probability' in our choice of identity for the vehicles I want for the Cleethorpes. ATB Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) From a combination of WTTs and Chronicles of Napier website: 1A37, summer '64 – SX was 1240 Newcastle-King's Cross but was 10.10 from Edinburgh on Saturdays, which may be when the photo was taken. Unless you have an exact date, cross-checking to the carriage workings may help 1B24, summer '67 – 1632 SX Doncaster-King's Cross 1E04, spring '63 – 0722 Bradford-King's Cross (0747 ex-Leeds). 1B66, summer '68 – usually Cambridge Buffet Express 1A13, spring '64 – 0745 Sunderland-King's Cross 1L59, spring '64 – 1605 King's Cross-Cleethorpes 2B66, summer '64/'65 – Cambridge stopping 1A31, summer '67 – 1200 Edinburgh-King's Cross (but 1035 Newcastle-King's Cross on Summer Sundays) 1A30, spring '64 – 1400 King's Cross-Edinburgh (The Heart of Midlothian) 1E10, spring '64 – 1139 Bradford-King’s Cross (1214 ex-Leeds) 1A03, spring '64 – 0750 Newcastle-King's Cross 3B14, spring '63 – cannot identify but the formation might identify which train the stock worked if it is Pullman Cars as each train was very distinctive 2B65, spring '64 – King’s Cross-Hitchin/Baldock/Royston or return 2B66, spring '68 (2B66 in 1965 was gangwayed stock; this is non-corridor) - King’s Cross-Cambridge or return stopping 1A66, spring '62 – 2020 King’s Cross-Edinburgh 1G60, spring '64 - a Pullman – 1120 King’s Cross-Sheffield Victoria 1N10, spring '61 – my King’s Cross Suburban WTT does not list the headcodes 1B06, spring '62 – might be an incorrect code as there was a 2B06 Peterborough-King’s Cross and a 1B07 (also from Peterborough) and a Sunday 1B08 from Grantham. 1E36, 'spring '67 – cannot find this for either 1966-7 Winter or 1967-8 timetables, the latter of which commenced on 6 March. 1E08, summer '62 – up Yorkshire Pullman, SX: 0956 Harrogate-King’s Cross (1004 ex-Bradford, 1034 ex-Leeds); SO: 1037 ex-Harrogate, 1047 ex-Bradford, 1117 ex-Leeds (formation will identify whether it was the SX or SO working) 1E10, spring '64 – 1139 Bradford-King’s Cross (1214 ex-Leeds) 1N21, autumn '63 – 1520 King’s Cross-Leeds/Bradford 1L60, summer '63 - Kings +-Cleethorpes – 1850 King’s Cross-Cleethorpes (1830 on Sundays) 1A01, spring '63 – 0743 York-King’s Cross Just the job Robert; many, many thanks. Thanks, too, to Geoff Hodson. I'm just starting to put the Irwell book together, tracing the ECML from Kings Cross into Scotland (though not quite as far as Waverley - pictures will be included in later publications). So, it goes from green diesels without yellow ends, through to 'Deltics' carrying the winged thistle, thence to working the 'Silver Jubilee' and to their last rites on the York semi-fasts. There are shots of brand new diesels in both green and blue at Doncaster, plus shining examples freshly shopped at the 'Plant'. Sadly, there are also shots at Donny where a loco's wheels will revolve no more. All sorts of workings are featured, from the 'Ashburton Pullman' to the 'Yorkshire Pullman', with loads in between. I hope it'll be of interest to railway modellers, from 1960 to1981. For the moment, though, back to completing the 0-8-4T and the Millholme 2P. Edited February 13, 2015 by Tony Wright 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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