Wright writes.....

[thegreenhowards]

This weekend has seen me finally finish the Kirk Restaurant Triplet Set that I have been building on and off since the summer. Thanks to those of you who helped, in particular Tony for the tip about two bolts from underneath the bogie to stop the articulated kitchen car wobbling - that worked a treat

[rowanj]

Good morning Andrew,

 

MRJ 17 A4 and K3.jpg

 

The train hauled by the K3 is 'typical' of the parcels/empty stock trains one might see pictures of from the period on the ECML. It's made up from kits and modified RTR items and is my work, Larry Goddard's (via Derek Lawrence), Rob Davey's and John Houlden's. The picture was taken before the platform buildings and footbridge were installed on LB. In many ways, this shot shows my lococentricity, because I took much more time over the K3 than its train. It's one of the few K3s still running in BR days which still towed a GNR tender. It's a real mix consisting of a Bachmann K3 boiler/footplate (the former converted to RH-drive), SE Finecast chassis, SE Finecast cab and a London Road Models tender. I did the lot on this one, including making it, painting it, lining/lettering it and weathering it. 

 

I have several non-passenger train formations from BR's own documents, but have used prototype pictures more. Many of these don't appear as the same in BR's documents from the period. Were these made up as required? In one shot I have, taken near York in the early-'60s, there is a gleaming Pullman car in the train's consist, along with some rather shabby four-wheeled and bogie parcels stock. On the cover of North Eastern Main Line Steam, Bradford Barton, there is a shot of ISINGLASS hauling a quite splendid empty stock train including a goods brake van, ex-LMS, ex-SR, ex-LNER and BR four-wheeled and bogie non-passenger stock, comprising nine vehicles. Nothing in my BR documents lists a set such as this. So, anything goes as required? 

 

In answer to your final question, I have no idea if the kit is still available. It's shown as kit RC 127 on the instructions. If it is available, I recommend it.

The K3 conversion featured in BRM, and inspired me to have a go. My component parts were a GBL body, SEF cab supplied as a spare by Dave Ellis, a Graeme King resin tender and a Bachmann split chassis from a V1/3. Since taking the photo, I've replaced the lining - honest !!

Edited December 12, 2016 by rowanj

[gr.king]

I'm surprised that you've left the top front corner of the tender sidesheet in a state of indecision. It isn't massively difficult to exercise one or other of the built in options, either scraping off the superfluous inner loop of the beading or carefully opening out the blanked hole for the hand-loop and filing the top edge down a little.......

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

I may be coming late to the party here, so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but given your query about consists - have you seen the LNER Passenger Trains and Formations hardback book from IA Publishing, written by Steve Banks & Clive Carter?  Wonderful book for reference, and very interesting reading as well.  Not the cheapest, but well worth the money in my view.

 

Regards

Rich

Thanks Rich,

 

I have the book in question - it was mentioned some little time ago on this thread. 

 

Though it is a valuable source of reference, the margins contain a fair bit in the way of my scribblings, correcting errors. They're the ones I know about. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jwealleans]

That K3 conversion is not hard and for anyone looking for a gentle introduction to butchering personalising RTR models, wouldn't be a bad place to start.  The loco can be found relatively easy second hand, you have a choice of cabs from SEF and a choice of tenders.

 

 

I was in the process of completing this one when Tony's article was published. It's one of the second series built at Darlington and as working from York shed just before the War. SEF cab with the low windows and replacement flared tender top from Dave Alexander. Converted to RHD as well (I think it's that way round - the opposite side to the model as produced).

Edited July 11, 2018 by jwealleans

[Tony Wright]

The K3 conversion featured in BRM, and inspired me to have a go. My component parts were a GBL body, SEF cab supplied as a spare by Dave Ellis, a Graeme King resin tender and a Bachmann split chassis from a V1/3. Since taking the photo, I've replaced the lining - honest !!

 

This is the actual loco in question, abandoned at Retford in the later summer of 1961. Its tender has no hand grip. 

 

 

 

This was my original conversion, just using the Bachmann chassis. However, since was its poor performance (jerky, wobbly and noisy), and those way-undersized-drivers, that I built the SE finecast replacement chassis for it, utilising most of the Bachmann motion. 

 

 

Though the better-sized driving wheels aren't easily seen in this tight-perspective view, I can assure you that the performance is far superior to any Bachmann K3. 

 

 

I've helped Tom Foster do the same for his Bachmann K3. The correct-sized drivers are apparent here. 

 

I'll post some further K3 pictures later today. 

[Tony Wright]

 

Here is a close-up taken from a previous picture. I also changed the pony wheels for something much nearer to the real thing from my chunky Romford original substitutes (Bachmann's aren't good). Front steps also make a difference. 

 

 

I did a make-over when the Bachmann K3 first appeared, still using the original chassis.

 

 

As did Tony Geary. 

 

Both these locos have now been sold-on. 

 

 

Anchorage did a fine K3 kit (for an earlier-cab example - Bachmann's has the later-style cab). Alan Hammet built this one and Tony Geary weathered it. 

 

 

My personal preference is still for the SE Finecast example. I built, painted, lined and lettered this one (apologies for the gross lamps). 

 

So, please, let's see some more examples of your K3 building. 

[rowanj]

I'm surprised that you've left the top front corner of the tender sidesheet in a state of indecision. It isn't massively difficult to exercise one or other of the built in options, either scraping off the superfluous inner loop of the beading or carefully opening out the blanked hole for the hand-loop and filing the top edge down a little.......

 

Hi Graeme. After all these years, I'm surprised that you are surprised by any of my c-ups.!! Having admitted that, I'm not sure from the photos which mod is appropriate for my version. Advice gratefully received.

Regards

John

[Mallard60022]

The train was in the carriage workings. Here it is from the 1957 WR carriage workings:

Is there anything this man does not know about coaches and their workings? Brilliant Robert, except I will now be OCDing about whether I can gather the relevant stock to run that on diversion through SJish. Maybe it didn't run after 1957 as that would be my excuse for not having it?

This WTT of course makes me realise this train supplied the 'extra' stock for the holiday SO trains from W of E to wherever as stated. Presumably this working was (as required?) Summer Timetable only and maybe date restricted too?

Philth.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Mallard60022

[APOLLO]

You have never lived until you have been on the overnight Bangkok - Chiang Mai sleeping car express (first class of course !!)

 

On the menu in the restaurant car was "Water Bug Soup, with water bugs and many other tasty ingredients" !!. I passed on that but had a superb omelette and pork stir fry with a couple of beers. 

 

Another holiday was to Japan. We rode the (original) Bullet Train from Tokyo to Kyoto. Staff walk down the train selling small wooden food boxes calling out "Eki Bento" They are beautifully made and presented and contain various Sushies etc. Quite unlike a "Bowyers" Pork Pie !!!

 

Brit15

[drmditch]

Once when I was young and coming home from Durham at the end of term, a group of us had breakfast in an otherwise empty dining car (I presume a Mk1 type in 1970ish). The staff had rather over-prepared so they kept pressing additional portions on us.

What I particularly remember was that the cutlery and silverware was all marked 'GNR'. 

[Atso]

MRJ 17 A4 and K3.jpg

 

Here is a close-up taken from a previous picture. I also changed the pony wheels for something much nearer to the real thing from my chunky Romford original substitutes (Bachmann's aren't good). Front steps also make a difference. 

 

K3 02 Bachmann 61880.jpg

 

I did a make-over when the Bachmann K3 first appeared, still using the original chassis.

 

Bachmann K3.jpg

 

As did Tony Geary. 

 

Both these locos have now been sold-on. 

 

Anchorage K3.jpg

 

Anchorage did a fine K3 kit (for an earlier-cab example - Bachmann's has the later-style cab). Alan Hammet built this one and Tony Geary weathered it. 

 

SE Finecast K3.jpg

 

My personal preference is still for the SE Finecast example. I built, painted, lined and lettered this one (apologies for the gross lamps). 

 

So, please, let's see some more examples of your K3 building. 

 

Lovely K3s there Tony.

 

As you asked to see other's examples of K3s, here is my N gauge version:

 

 

An early 3D printed body sitting on a converted Farish V2. I rewheeled it using Farish B1 wheels (which are undersize for the B1 but about right for the K3) and lowered the cylinders and valve gear hangers to a more prototypical height. However, I had some problems drilling out the centre crank to take a screw for the new style Farish wheels. Hans Starman of Holland came to my rescue here and precision drilled out the old cranks and sorted out the quartering for me. All the lining was done using a bow pen and was either my first or second attempt at lining a loco this way. The boiler bands were lined bits of tape which, in hindsight wasn't the best idea ever as they were forever peeling off.

 

It never did quite sit right on the chassis due to a modification to the pickups; which allowed the loco to actually run!. It has now been retired while a replacement is being built. The replacement will use transfers for the boiler bands, just a case of do I make my own of use the fox ones...

 

Oh, finally, the funny round this in the cab is the flywheel from the original V2 motor!

 

Edit: I can't take any credit for the layout it was running on in the picture. This was taken on the North of England Line exhibition layout where the kind souls of the Scarborough club allowed me to run the loco at St. Albans a few years back.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Atso

[glo41f]

K3 locos are particular favourites being used a lot in the eastern counties. They were particularly well looked after by Lowestoft shed who provided power for the fast fish trains to London which were K3 duties. They are also difficult to get "right" and the addition of the correct size wheels makes a huge difference to their appearance in the 4mm models shown here. It rather begs the question as to why this work should be necessary on a commercial "scale" model. I remember them as fast and powerful and massive looking with the huge boiler presenting a massive frontal look. I have not read anywhere that they suffered unduly from the wear in the Gresley gear which is strange given the fact that it was in the same position as found on the pacifics where the wear is well documented. Lovely pictures chaps.

 

Martin Long

[APOLLO]

The only K3 I (think) I ever saw was against the buffer stop at Central Wagon, Ince Wigan ready for the chop around 1962 or so, when I was aged 10. Several were cut up here according to the book "Requiem at Ince" - a sad but informative and well illustrated story of the infamous Wigan scrapyard.

 

Anyway, back around 2006, JUST before Bachmann announced there K3, I had a desire for one. My Bachmann V3 tank had packed up, and I bought her a new chassis unit from Hattons. So I had a spare chassis that didn't work. Looking around, I reckoned a Bachmann V2 loco body could be made into a presentable K3. So with a bit of research and parts from various places here she is, standing on the Leeds - Liverpool canal Bridge at Wigan Central (goods). K3's occasionally got to Wigan Central Goods back in the 50's.

 

 

And alongside Lower Ince shed

 

 

She has a cut down (rear section removed) Bachmann V2 body, slightly modified unpowered Baccy V3 chassis, hand made dome, Hornby B17 motorised tender chassis and Bachmann V2 tender top, coupled together with a Hornby sprung loco - tender electrical coupling. Suitably weathered, she pulls the fish train on my main layout, and runs fine. Still a little work needed on the cab front windows. I later bought a bachy K3 and was pleasantly surprised by how close my dogs breakfast was to the original, (sorry this pix a bit out of focus)

 

 

Brit15

Edited December 12, 2016 by APOLLO

[robertcwp]

Is there anything this man does not know about coaches and their workings? Brilliant Robert, except I will now be OCDing about whether I can gather the relevant stock to run that on diversion through SJish. Maybe it didn't run after 1957 as that would be my excuse for not having it?

This WTT of course makes me realise this train supplied the 'extra' stock for the holiday SO trains from W of E to wherever as stated. Presumably this working was (as required?) Summer Timetable only and maybe date restricted too?

Philth.

If it had been dated rather than running throughout the Summer timetable or had been as required this would have been stated or the working would have been in the weekly notices rather than in the carriage workings so I think it ran throughout the Summer timetable.

[lanchester]

Thanks for posting the pictures, John. 

 

Because the locos are all your own work then, please, take credit from that. 

 

May I make a few suggestions, please? 

 

I don't know what the paint is you've used but has it gone on a bit too thickly? I mention this because the PDK tender is etched brass and the finish on the B16/3 tender looks more like white metal underneath. Too thick paint application can give the same effect, with the odd 'sink' mark. 

 

I think it's a good idea to always glaze the cabs of finished locos, at least the leading one each side and the spectacles. I use thin Plastiglaze for the side windows and Glue & Glaze for the spectacles. 

 

Weathering the motion and wheel rims also aids realism.  

 

The comments above are given in the spirit of 'constructive criticisms'. As I say, the fact that you've done all the work yourself has great merit. It's one thing to post pictures of the work of others (however good) but it takes a lot more to do the construction yourself and then do the painting. To me, those two B16s are fully in the tradition of layout locos. Please, keep on posting more examples of your work. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony. 

Assuming the picture is true to the real life model,  if he can document how he got the finish on the B16/3, isn't that exactly what a deeply, seriously, neglected livery gets like texturely, before being 'spruced up' for eg a final special, or perhaps a removal from Barry? If we could work out how to get that effect ONLY when we want it...?

[chrisf]

 Maybe it didn't run after 1957 as that would be my excuse for not having it?

 

See post #13317 above for the 1961 formation!

 

Chris

[Red Devil]

Can't find any pics off my first K3, several house moves later and long since gone but it did feature in the Sept '95 Railway Modeller, built from a V1/3 chassis, rehashed Hornby B17 footplate and cab and a section of plastic pipe for the boiler. Not as nice as some but looked ok for those distant times when you wanted anything much 'Eastern Region' it meant building it yourself in some shape or form.....I seem to remember the V1/3 body morphing into an L1 at a later stage.

[Willie Whizz]

Thanks Rich,

 

I have the book in question - it was mentioned some little time ago on this thread. 

 

Though it is a valuable source of reference, the margins contain a fair bit in the way of my scribblings, correcting errors. They're the ones I know about. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

As I (and others) have said before: it's true the Banks and Carter book is not perfect; but one would have to look long and hard for anything else comparable in focus and scope relating to the LNER and BR (ER) carriage workings and the rationales behind them.

 

And of course any published author (myself included, in a very small way) knows that you can research every conceivable source and appeal for information until you're blue in the face, but sooner or later you either have to say "that'll have to do" and find somebody to actually publish what you have; or else consign your work and knowledge to die with you.  And at that point some ... precious soul ... will come out of the woodwork and say:  "But surely every fool knows it was like this, not like that ..."!

 

Steve Banks has himself published a list of known corrections and additional points on his website:  http://www.steve-banks.org which will address at least some of these points, and he is contactable via it for anyone who has more to suggest.  What I would add is that too many of us seem to  treat the official working books and diagrams as 'gospel'; whereas in many cases they were more in the nature of a 'statement of intent' by the Railway that was often heavily-modified in practice by the amount and nature of the traffic actually offering and the vehicles on hand at the time to service it.  They do not therefore tell the whole story and, as Tony suggests and Banks & Carter would certainly agree, study and interpretation of reliably-captioned photographs (which itself can be another story ...) is essential too.

 

 

On the subject of modern on-train dining, I would have to say the service and quality on Canada's Rocky Mountaineer (Gold Service) , which Lady Whizz and I sampled last year would take an awful lot of beating.  Expensive mind you ... but it was our 40th Wedding Anniversary, so justifiable as a one-off.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Willie Whizz

[The Stationmaster]

If it had been dated rather than running throughout the Summer timetable or had been as required this would have been stated or the working would have been in the weekly notices rather than in the carriage workings so I think it ran throughout the Summer timetable.

 

The diners ran on a Summer TT basis throughout the period of the Summer Timetable (unless specifically shown as dated).  In my time (the second half of the 1960s) the move from Old Oak to Paddington was arranged locally and only published in the Paddington station working book with the actual vehicles shown by subsequent working on the Saloon List.  The Saloon List was effectively a daily alterations notice for working at Paddington and for empty stocks between Old Oak/West London and Paddington but it had the name 'Saloon List' because it also showed reserved compartments (my first experience with a typewriter was producing compartment reservation labels at Paddington, a mere 51 years ago).

 

Presumably an equivalent of the Saloon List was produced at most of the larger (G)WR stations although the only other one I ever directly came across was the 'Station Orders' at Swansea High St which I produced everyday while relieving there as Asst Area Manager there for several weeks, exactly 43 years ago.  Such things - which had different names in different places - were basically alterations of and additions to station working books in just the same way that weekly and daily notices amended the WTT and Carriage Working Programme.

[St Enodoc]

 

"One interesting movement I recently came across was the conveyance of an RU on a Leeds Kings Cross parcels train. The inclusion of this carriage would make the train readily identifiable in photographs. Without recourse to the CWN a viewer would be unaware that this was a daily occurrence. The RU worked north to Leeds, providing a catering service on an express and returned south as an ECS as part of the parcels train".

 

Bit OT perhaps but there could possibly be a BR WR modeller that lurks on here and this might be of interest. I have found a train working into Cornwall on the WR (Summer 1957 ) that consisted entirely of catering coaches ECS. That would be quite expensive to replicate as there are few decent RTR coaches of this type that would be suitable for that era.

Fascinating looking at carriage WTTs.

Phil

 

 

A bit slow on the uptake Phil as I have only got intermittent internet access at the moment, but as you might be referring to me I thought I'd better respond.

 

Nothing to add to all the posts following yours, except to say that my model of the Newquay portion currently includes a Lima RU, a Mainline RB and my converted Hornby H33, plus a Bachmann BSK.

[robertcwp]

 

What I would add is that too many of us seem to  treat the official working books and diagrams as 'gospel'; whereas in many cases they were more in the nature of a 'statement of intent' by the Railway that was often heavily-modified in practice by the amount and nature of the traffic actually offering and the vehicles on hand at the time to service it.

 

I totally agree. The carriage workings are one source of evidence but you need more, eg photos or film, weekly notices, amendments to the carriage workings, etc. The last two of those are very hard to find.  Many photos were taken on Saturdays (which were not always reflective of what went on for the remainder of the week) and dates and train identification are often lacking or suspect. Film is even worse for that.

 

Carriage workings show what was supposed to happen. From photos and film, most of the regular trains did seem to stick fairly closely to the workings in terms of overall shape and character although not always in terms of individual carriage types. You need to look at all the evidence together and not jump to conclusions based on part of it or dismiss a source completely without good reason.

 

Books that basically copy out carriage workings, whilst introducing errors and wrong interpretation presented as though it were fact, would be worse than the raw carriage workings in my view.

 

The Banks/Carter book is not in that category, just in case anyone is wondering, although in my view it does have a few too many mistakes in captions, in particular with regard to carriage identification, e.g. confusing Gresley 52' 6" composites and all thirds, as well as the train passing Lofthouse Colliery discussed earlier in this thread which was said by I forget who to be a case of the wrong photo being used - in which case it was the wrong photo of the same engine at the same location (which is possible) as those two bits of the caption match the photo.

 

Incidentally, still no sign of Vol 2 of Banks/Carter so far as I can see. I hope the publishers have not dropped it.

[Tony Wright]

As I (and others) have said before: it's true the Banks and Carter book is not perfect; but one would have to look long and hard for anything else comparable in focus and scope relating to the LNER and BR (ER) carriage workings and the rationales behind them.

 

And of course any published author (myself included, in a very small way) knows that you can research every conceivable source and appeal for information until you're blue in the face, but sooner or later you either have to say "that'll have to do" and find somebody to actually publish what you have; or else consign your work and knowledge to die with you.  And at that point some ... precious soul ... will come out of the woodwork and say:  "But surely every fool knows it was like this, not like that ..."!

 

Steve Banks has himself published a list of known corrections and additional points on his website:  http://www.steve-banks.org which will address at least some of these points, and he is contactable via it for anyone who has more to suggest.  What I would add is that too many of us seem to  treat the official working books and diagrams as 'gospel'; whereas in many cases they were more in the nature of a 'statement of intent' by the Railway that was often heavily-modified in practice by the amount and nature of the traffic actually offering and the vehicles on hand at the time to service it.  They do not therefore tell the whole story and, as Tony suggests and Banks & Carter would certainly agree, study and interpretation of reliably-captioned photographs (which itself can be another story ...) is essential too.

 

 

On the subject of modern on-train dining, I would have to say the service and quality on Canada's Rocky Mountaineer (Gold Service) , which Lady Whizz and I sampled last year would take an awful lot of beating.  Expensive mind you ... but it was our 40th Wedding Anniversary, so justifiable as a one-off.

Thanks Willie,

 

Having written several books and countless articles, I can agree entirely with your points of view. Every time I look through something I've written which has been published there is a metaphorical neon-arrow pulsating away next to something I've got wrong. And, the book in question is an invaluable source of reference, so I have no wish to devalue it in any way. It's just that one of the authors has been quite critical from time to time in the past about models/publications (particularly of/on carriages) and to misidentify several vehicles and types in the book does seem strange. 

 

That said, there is nothing of its equal nor anything so comprehensive on the subject. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony 

[robertcwp]

See post #13317 above for the 1961 formation!

 

Chris

I can't see it in the 1962 Through Coach Programme so it might have been relegated to weekly notices or some other reference, or even not run at all that year. I don't have the Summer 1962 Paddington Station Workings book.

[Tony Wright]

 

I totally agree. The carriage workings are one source of evidence but you need more, eg photos or film, weekly notices, amendments to the carriage workings, etc. The last two of those are very hard to find.  Many photos were taken on Saturdays (which were not always reflective of what went on for the remainder of the week) and dates and train identification are often lacking or suspect. Film is even worse for that.

 

Carriage workings show what was supposed to happen. From photos and film, most of the regular trains did seem to stick fairly closely to the workings in terms of overall shape and character although not always in terms of individual carriage types. You need to look at all the evidence together and not jump to conclusions based on part of it or dismiss a source completely without good reason.

 

Books that basically copy out carriage workings, whilst introducing errors and wrong interpretation presented as though it were fact, would be worse than the raw carriage workings in my view.

 

The Banks/Carter book is not in that category, just in case anyone is wondering, although in my view it does have a few too many mistakes in captions, in particular with regard to carriage identification, e.g. confusing Gresley 52' 6" composites and all thirds, as well as the train passing Lofthouse Colliery discussed earlier in this thread which was said by I forget who to be a case of the wrong photo being used - in which case it was the wrong photo of the same engine at the same location (which is possible) as those two bits of the caption match the photo.

 

Incidentally, still no sign of Vol 2 of Banks/Carter so far as I can see. I hope the publishers have not dropped it.

 

Robert,

 

I spoke to Clive Carter at the Warley Show and he wasn't sure when the second volume would be published. We live in hope.