Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

I will be forever jealous! My earliest memory of Railway's (apart from the Talyllyn) was of walking the Monsaldale trackbed soon after the track was lifted

Thanks Tim,

 

You won't be jealous of the age required to have such memories. 

 

I like your 'handle', by the way - 'the builder', France's greatest architect. 

[APOLLO]

When I want sound, I play some of Lewisham Bills videos (Vimeo) as back ground.  Not only get some steam sounds but pop music from the 50s and 60s. 

 

Yes those videos are quite fantastic. Warship diesels running into Marylebone with Tim Rose's "Morning Dew" blasting in the background - who needs sound chips !!!

 

Brit15

[Barry O]

my memories of steam.. a Q6/WD/9F/J27 working hard to pull a rake of 21T full coal hoppers out of teh pit yard heading south (at night this was also accompanied by a display similar to Dantes' inferno.

 

A Hunslet 18" pushing an MGR train out of South Hetton as the EE type 3 on teh front couldn't shift it...

 

Real trains ...

 

The Q6 sound of Locoman is the best rendition of a Q6 sound I have heard (The few times I have heard the Q6 at NYMR it was being driven "gently")

 

Baz

[Hroth]

At the risk of "sitting on the fence" my view is that sound has got a lot of potential but I'm not really sure that it's quite right yet. I build my locos with dead chassis so that I can put sound in later- if I want to.

 

I don't remember steam days - my railway memories are from travelling to school on early 1970s Southern Region. I'm no great fan of that period but what I do recall, quite fondly, are the ambient sounds.

 

As I waited on the platform at Whyteleafe South station the first hint that the train was due would be the bells sounding and then the signalman using the wheel to shut the level crossing gates - these would shut with a bang of metal on metal, one after the other. Next would be the sound of wire on pulley as the signal was set and then the "hiss" along the rails. Finally an EMU would come into sight with just the faintest sounds - these grew until (clanking, squealing, groaning) it stopped at the platform. Finally doors banging as a passenger or two got on, bells ringing from the guard and then we set off.

 

To recreate that sound experience (always on a pleasantly warm day in my memory!) would be a challenge I think - but if achieved it would take me back 40 years in an instant! However, because I remember it, anything that sounded out of place would jar.

 

So I now wonder if that means that I would accept steam sounds more easily on the basis that I can't remember them (and therefore I don't really know if they are right or wrong)?

 

Jon

Rather like the approach of a Liverpool-bound Class 503 from West Kirby approaching Hoylake.

 

Of course, nowadays there's no signal box, the gates were replaced by a full barrier remotely controlled crossing, and the replacements for the 503s are due to be replaced themselves.

 

At least the railway is still there!

[ecgtheow]

Thanks Tim,

 

You won't be jealous of the age required to have such memories. 

 

I like your 'handle', by the way - 'the builder', France's greatest architect. 

Tony, It's common misconception, but Cobusier (Charles-Édouard Jeanneret-Gris) was born Swiss & only became a French citizen in 1930 when he was about 43. William

[Lecorbusier]

 

I like your 'handle', by the way - 'the builder', France's greatest architect. 

 

As with locos ... endless are the debates - perhaps to be strictly accurate one should say France's greatest "20th century" Architect? ... come what may an interesting chap - love him or hate him!

[thegreenhowards]

Andy,

 

I don't take many things the wrong way (though many will disagree), so there's not a problem there. 

 

I think you're slightly missing the point (for entirely the right reasons) because you're that much-to-be-applauded creature, the 'lone modeller'. From what you've told me, you belong to a club, but it's your own railway which is more important. And, it seems that you want to do everything yourself. I had that high ideal 40 years ago, but I've learned in the meanwhile that I'm happier working in groups, sharing abilities and pooling skills. I admit that has an air of exclusivity about it, because one has to have 'parallel' skills with which to 'trade'. Just waving chequebooks at a project is no good at all because what's most important to the groups I've had the privilege of belonging to is that they do things (collectively) themselves. 

 

The principal point I'd like to make on the issue of 'trading' skills is this............. I have the work of other modellers on my layout (including that of your delightful daughter). I rejoice in being that lucky, but it's qualified by the fact that layouts belonging to some of the contributors have my (now their) locos running on them (in exchange). Or, I'll open a book next year where most of the photographs are mine, in exchange for painting. Or, a modeller whose work is on my layout will show punters pictures of his (other) work from a portfolio taken by me. Or, a DVD can be watched which was made as part of a 'deal'. Or I'll receive weathered locos produced by a friend in exchange for my showing him how to build locos. Or, and so on and so on. 

 

Though there is a cost imperative to all this, most of what's been achieved has been through bartering. And why, for instance, should Geoff Haynes 'compromise' his book by having poor pictures in it, in the same way I'd 'compromise' a loco of mine by painting it to a lower standard (even though I've painted dozens of my own locos)? 

 

What's most important is that everyone I've known in the projects I've been involved with has been a most-practical doer. They know what they're doing and the results (I hope) speak for themselves. 

 

Is it necessary to do everything oneself on/in a project? Certainly, as with Peter Denny's work or Frank Dyer's work the 'overall' quality of the finished thing is there to see and, with much justification, they are acknowledged as great modellers. What's most important to me is that I must have (or must have had) a substantial, practical input to any layout project I've been involved with. Otherwise, what's the point? The alternative is just to be a commissioner of models, where there is precious little practical work on the part of the owner. Any descriptions can then only be second-hand.

 

What's still most important is that this thread encourages model-makers to have a go by/for themselves, and that can include working in groups. Helping others is what it's all about, and being helped yourself. My 'input' into your building of 60506 doesn't diminish your personal achievement in having finished it one tiny bit.   

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

Tony,

 

All fair points. I do like to do things myself, although I enjoy working on the club layout as well - wiring it (for DC!) at the moment. And I certainly see that as a weakness as well as a strength - particularly because my inbuilt impatience leads me to cut corners!

 

Your standards are very high, and therefore I can see that it would annoy you if something was not as good as it could be. It is a sad fact that one has to choose between the satisfaction of doing it all oneself, and the satisfaction of producing the ultimate layout.

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

May I add a little comment on sound, please? 

 

I've yet to hear any 'model' sound which sounds anything like the railway sounds I heard as youth and into maturity (though I've never really grown up).

 

The deafening sound of a Semi's four (yes four!) safety valves lifting under the overall roof at Chester. 

 

The roar from GREAT NORTHERN's double chimney as she wore away the rails slipping at Retford trying to get her heavy train back on to the main line from Platform 1.

 

The knowledge that a Deltic was approaching on a Down express minutes before it came into view, as I stood on the overbridge south of Stoke Summit, gazing into the dead-straight distance towards Corby Glen. 

 

The cacophony of sounds as a rebuilt Bulleid Pacific leaned to the curves through Basingstoke, at high speed, non-stop. 

 

The howl of a Western tackling Dainton Bank. 

 

There are many others. 

 

Little Bytham (besides having real railway sounds for company) just 'rejoices' in the sounds the model trains make themselves. I won't tolerate the whirring from a poorly built mechanism, so there's nothing of that kind. The trains make a mechanical noise as they pass by, though the click of the wheels as they pass over rail joints is not that loud (in order to give the clickety-clack of bogies going over 60' rail sections, the gaps have to be unprototypically huge).

 

In fact, though real trains are anything but quiet, I strive to make my locos as quiet as possible. I like the soft sound of a loco just running past, happily in charge of its (often heavy) train.

 

Would those who've visited Little Bytham like to comment, please?

 

As you know I'm a DCC convert and it is sound which persuaded me to switch more than anything else. I agree the sounds aren't perfect, but they do bring back happy memories for me, particularly with the diesel sounds ( being too young to remember steam). I love my Deltic charging through on full throttle, or the 26 'tea-cupping' as it runs round its train.

 

I agree that the trains on LB have presence - the locos are certainly smooth, but the weight of the loco and train makes a reassuring sound, even without the bells and whistles! Overall, I think sound makes less difference on your sort of layout than on a terminus or shunting type of layout where the different sounds can be brought out.

 

Andy

[The Johnster]

I would suggest not doing that but just putting notches at a few key places as mentioned by Phil above. the entry/exit to the fiddle yard would be a good start.

 

 

 

Thank you for this advice, I will certainly investigate this.  In the case of my layout, the fiddle yard scenic break is very close to the turnout for the runaround loop, less than a foot, so the effect may be lost.  It has occurred to me in thinking about how to do this that it may be feasible to increase or dercrease the volume produced at any given joint with different depths and profiles of slit/gap.  But I certainly think wheel beats, both from passenger and freight stock, can and will add a dimension to operating sessions.

Edited September 20, 2017 by The Johnster

[Lecorbusier]

 

 

Little Bytham (besides having real railway sounds for company) just 'rejoices' in the sounds the model trains make themselves. I won't tolerate the whirring from a poorly built mechanism, so there's nothing of that kind. The trains make a mechanical noise as they pass by, though the click of the wheels as they pass over rail joints is not that loud (in order to give the clickety-clack of bogies going over 60' rail sections, the gaps have to be unprototypically huge).

 

In fact, though real trains are anything but quiet, I strive to make my locos as quiet as possible. I like the soft sound of a loco just running past, happily in charge of its (often heavy) train.

 

Would those who've visited Little Bytham like to comment, please?  

 

I have not had the privilege to visit little Bytham ... though I am a huge fan and loved the article in the MRJ. However I do enjoy every now and then playing the various youtube offerings . I was running through these again last night and I would like to make a comment on the strength of these.

 

 

Yes the modelling is fantastic, and yes the length and weight of the trains gives a reassuring feeling visually with a real sense of mass and inertia. However, ( on the videos at least) the sound of the trains running at speed over what has to be said is superb track work is quite noticeable and for me adds considerably to the overall impression. I hasten to add the sound is not that of the motor, but rather the sound of many wheels at speed over rails. The sounds certainly aid my imagination as a viewer. I would simply make the point that on a smaller layout where such speeds and length of train are not present the sound of the motor and relative silence of everything else can be a distraction rather than an aid - a negative rather than a positive.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Tony Wright]

As with locos ... endless are the debates - perhaps to be strictly accurate one should say France's greatest "20th century" Architect? ... come what may an interesting chap - love him or hate him!

Tim,

 

Though I'm an atheist, I think his chapel at Ronchamp (is that the correct spelling?) is one of the greatest  ecclesiastical buildings in history, even though it is quite small. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

Tim,

 

Though I'm an atheist, I think his chapel at Ronchamp (is that the correct spelling?) is one of the greatest  ecclesiastical buildings in history, even though it is quite small. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I couldn't agree more (I was there again this summer) .... interesting that he too was not religious.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Mallard60022]

May I add a little comment on sound, please? 

 

I've yet to hear any 'model' sound which sounds anything like the railway sounds I heard as youth and into maturity (though I've never really grown up).

 

The deafening sound of a Semi's four (yes four!) safety valves lifting under the overall roof at Chester. 

 

The roar from GREAT NORTHERN's double chimney as she wore away the rails slipping at Retford trying to get her heavy train back on to the main line from Platform 1.

 

The knowledge that a Deltic was approaching on a Down express minutes before it came into view, as I stood on the overbridge south of Stoke Summit, gazing into the dead-straight distance towards Corby Glen. 

 

The cacophony of sounds as a rebuilt Bulleid Pacific leaned to the curves through Basingstoke, at high speed, non-stop. 

 

The howl of a Western tackling Dainton Bank. 

 

There are many others. 

 

Little Bytham (besides having real railway sounds for company) just 'rejoices' in the sounds the model trains make themselves. I won't tolerate the whirring from a poorly built mechanism, so there's nothing of that kind. The trains make a mechanical noise as they pass by, though the click of the wheels as they pass over rail joints is not that loud (in order to give the clickety-clack of bogies going over 60' rail sections, the gaps have to be unprototypically huge).

 

In fact, though real trains are anything but quiet, I strive to make my locos as quiet as possible. I like the soft sound of a loco just running past, happily in charge of its (often heavy) train.

 

Would those who've visited Little Bytham like to comment, please?  

As some have said Tony, the 'images and sound memory' are in the head and that is good enough for me. It is a bit like listening to a decent radio drama and having the pictures and sounds of what is happening gently developing and then flowing around the remaining grey matter. Can one imagine a smell? If so then I do that too. I am going to be a pompous arse and suggest that I am still imaginative and artistic enough in my head to enjoy LB, other great layouts or even my own efforts. I believe it is part of the hugely enjoyalble creativity that hobbies such as ours can provide. 

How's that?

Phil

[APOLLO]

Tim,

 

Though I'm an atheist, I think his chapel at Ronchamp (is that the correct spelling?) is one of the greatest  ecclesiastical buildings in history, even though it is quite small. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Ahh - That's why you model the "Late and Never Early Railway" and not "God's Wonderful Railway" then !!!

 

A link to Lewisham Bills videos mentioned above, the Warship at Marylebone is on the London Termini video. 

 

.https://vimeo.com/user5981217   

 

Brit15

Edited September 21, 2017 by APOLLO

[Tony Teague]

I too am lucky enough to remember the sound of steam as it was in the day, but surely you don't have to be an old git like me to be able to visit one of our many wonderful preserved railways, where if you stand at the right location, you can hear steam locomotives working hard up inclines, pulling away from stations or shunting.

If you do, then you will know that "model sound" is not yet right.

Right or not, I too am not a fan of sound in model form since I find it irritates me, but I'd also suggest that even if it sounded right, it requires a lot of effort on the part of the 'driver' to extract the right sounds at the right times, which may be difficult if one is also acting as signalman, controller, and moving multiple trains at once!

 

Tony

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

All fair points. I do like to do things myself, although I enjoy working on the club layout as well - wiring it (for DC!) at the moment. And I certainly see that as a weakness as well as a strength - particularly because my inbuilt impatience leads me to cut corners!

 

Your standards are very high, and therefore I can see that it would annoy you if something was not as good as it could be. It is a sad fact that one has to choose between the satisfaction of doing it all oneself, and the satisfaction of producing the ultimate layout.

 

Andy

Thanks Andy,

 

However, just in case anyone infers the wrong thing from your final statement, Little Bytham never will be (nor ever could be) the 'ultimate' layout. It's my privilege to have photographed some layouts which come close, and all (in my opinion) have either been the product of one man/woman (or in the case of the Gravetts, a husband and wife creation) or a relatively small team of very high-standard modellers, pooling resources and helping each other.  

[Tony Wright]

Just a little couple of points to highlight (to me) the simplicity of analogue over DCC. 

 

Some years ago, one of my venerable H&M controllers suffered a broken wire on the resistance 'mat' over which the control wipers passed. Probably breaking some current health & safety legislation, I drilled out the pop rivets, un-soldered the feed wires to the dud mat, unscrewed it and replaced it with a new one, re-soldered the wires and put the unit back together with self-tapping screws. It, like its siblings, has worked perfectly ever since. 

 

Yesterday, for some (inexplicable when it happened) reason, one of my Helmsman control sliders just stopped working. The loco it was controlling just stuttered, then stopped - dead. A spare controller was plugged in, and away the train went. I opened the 'dud' box (being informed by the seal on the back that breaking it invalidated any guarantee) and looked inside. There were several wires and small poly-chromatic sausage-like things connected to more wires inside, all fixed by solder. I wiggled a few, and the box (still apart) worked for a short time, then failed again. All I did then was to re-solder every joint and, Hey Presto, it now works again. I have no idea what the wires and sausages do inside, but even a techno-dunce like me could fix it. 

 

Not long ago, I had occasion to try and attempt to 'fix' a DCC-fitted loco. The chip had far more flat conduits and tiny blobs of what-nots on it than ever was inside the hand-held controller. I was eventually told it was not worth attempting to fix it (not that I'd know how to, anyway). 

 

In conclusion, I must say that the Helmsman controllers have been brilliant on LB, and I'd heartily recommend them. 

[Rhys]

Thank you for this advice, I will certainly investigate this.  In the case of my layout, the fiddle yard scenic break is very close to the turnout for the runaround loop, less than a foot, so the effect may be lost.  It has occurred to me in thinking about how to do this that it may be feasible to increase or dercrease the volume produced at any given joint with different depths and profiles of slit/gap.  But I certainly think wheel beats, both from passenger and freight stock, can and will add a dimension to operating sessions.

 

Just thought I would add my 2 cents having had some practical experience with this sort of thing.

 

One thing that you want to think about is what sort of effect you are after. With the real thing when you are standing beside the track the sound you hear mostly is the track joint closest to you. With a model you can see and hear the whole length of the train and you will get overwhelmed by the 'clicks' very fast and it just will not work.

I used it on a TTn3.5 layout (TT on N guage for 3'6" NZR) and cut one pair of deep knicks with a triangular file right through the railhead at the top of a grade where the train slowed to take the curve to head off stage. It was very effective even with plastic peco wheels.

My suggestion would be (depending on the size of the layout) to do 2-3 well separated locations (ie close to your average train length) close to where your favoruite operating positions are. This should give you the best effect.

[coachmann]

Wright writes for Luddites....

[queensquare]

For my views on the debate see the editorial in MRJ 256, no prizes for guessing who the 'spawn of satan' quote is from!

 

I don't mention sound but I'm still undecided. I have fitted a couple of my 2mm locos with sound and they are a lot of fun to play with but I have to say that after a while it gets tiresome and I turn it off.

 

Jerry

Edited September 21, 2017 by queensquare

[teaky]

For my views on the debate see the editorial in MRJ 256, no prizes for guessing who the 'spawn of satan' quote is from!

 

I don't mention sound but I'm still undecided. I have fitted a couple of my 2mm locos with sound and they are a lot of fun to play with but I have to say that after a while it gets tiresome and I turn it off.

 

Jerry

I guessed right then! 

[Richard E]

Surely the question of sound and the perception for most of us being an imagined or recalled sound in our heads is one that harks back to our very first train set. As youngsters we would run our trains, possibly uttering choo choo sounds and then as we got our electric train we then used our mind to add all the accoutriments.

 

Is the desire for sound something more attractive to those who do not remember, at least, some of the effect of what they are choosing to model. Is it also a spin off where there seems to be a gradual shift towards modelling more recent times by a growing number so those choosing to model something they don't recall need the sound to help their mental pictures?

 

Discuss .....

[Clearwater]

I agree with jerry. sound is an occasional fun novelty, particularly when playing with my sons (5 and 19 months) Hitting the 'whistle' switch for the chime whistle as the TTS A4 flies round in circles is great fun. Do they care that the wheels are synchronised with the chuffs? No. Do they like the different noises? Yes.

 

Does it impact how one enjoys a Little Bytham or a Grantham at an exhibition? No, I don't think it does. Those you're looking for something different and the broader picture.

 

Out width of scope of Tony's question, but if sound is questionable as to whether it replicates the real thing, then smoke units are about a thousand times less realistic and add nothing to the scene. The exception to that are the Hornby live steam you sometimes see set up at exhibitions. They have a good 'smell', chuff better than sound chips and, when shown properly, take a real skill to drive

 

David

[allan downes]

As kids, we would lay pennies on the track atop of the embankment that ran alongside Hendon Airfield ( the main line to the North ) and, laying flat down literally only feet away from the track, we would wait for a train to come along and go blasting by where the noise it made shook one senseless and, as kids, we got addicted to it where, in the end, we wouldn't bother about flattening pennies anymore but rather our senses !

 

Now the nearest you'll get to that on a model railway is to nail a small tin can to the baseboard edge and pin your ear tight up to it as the sound is amplified beyond belief when a train passes by and for a more sophisticated arrangement, then I would suggest using a stethoscope ( which would be more explainable than if found kneeling on the floor with your ear stuck to an empty soup can !)

 

Allan

Edited September 21, 2017 by allan downes

[Hroth]

One of those stethoscopes sold for mechanical engineers would be ideal, you could stick the probe right between the sleepers.....

 

Here's one I found on ebay

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MECHANICS-ENGINEERS-STETHOSCOPE-NOISE-LOCATION-ENGINES-/282067939673?epid=1766776705&hash=item41ac8f3159:m:mkXc8TgjLiX6DVUDISMSNTg

 

Only an example and chosen because it wasn't from a Chinese vendor pretending to be located in the UK...