Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

You indeed right to point out that there were many heavier trains that were required to be hauled between Doncaster (where the pacific would have to come off) and Leeds. Some trains shed a portion for Hull at Donny but otherwise they would still be quite sizeable trains at least as far as Wakefield (Bradford portion detached) for which the more powerful ex-GC types would have indeed been useful. The trial of the B3s on the southern section only appears to have lasted for a few years. Valour herself was transferred back to Gorton in 1927 but, ironically, was transferred to Copley Hill in 1942 for working between Leeds and Doncaster (after the bridge had been strengthened!?) But of course, that was during extraordinary times.

 

The only picture I've seen of a loco other than an Atlantic on the Queen of Scots Pullman after the B3s and prior to the pacifics taking over is of a Director (5510 Princess Mary), photographed by Maurice Earley in 1932, heading southbound. Was that a substitute for a failure or did they work the train regularly for a time? Interestingly, on the same day Mr Earley photographed the northbound West Riding Pullman exiting Stoke Tunnel hauled by an immaculate Atlantic 3284 - and I mean immaculate, polished buffers, the works! Coach roofs aren't white though...

 

Good morning,

 

I'm just catching up with the thread, there are some wonderful photographs and modeling, too much to comment on at present or at least in one go. My late Father traveled behind a B4 on a couple of occasions. One such journey was a trip to the East coast, I believe a Scarborough excursion. Another was as far as Doncaster were he alighted and the locomotive came off the train. On that occasion, one of the highlights was seeing a Z class Atlantic come through south on a London bound fish train. I'm reminded that Ardsley sheds B4 Immingham, worked from Leeds down to Leicester in 1950. Leicester shed nicked the loco and put it on the southbound Newcastle York Bournemouth and return, thus becoming the last GC 4-6-0 to work over the London extension.

 

 

Thanks John,

 

I think you're probably right. 

 

Even some of the best-known modellers haven't always told 'everything'. You probably realise I know Norman Solomon very well, and he was a bit miffed when a famous author (no names, of course) related in one of his books that he'd had 'some assistance from Norman Solomon' in describing how his layout had been built. Some assistance? Norman built the baseboards, made and laid the track, did all the ballasting, wired the whole lot up, created the scenery, installed the signals and made many of the buildings/structures. As I say, 'some assistance'. I think any 'assistance' was given by the author. 

 

The subject of 'chequebook modelling' has come up a few times on this thread, and comments occasionally appear which would seem to be derogatory to it. I don't have the slightest problem with the notion of someone paying for a service (I do it all the time with my cars, especially when I had the TVR) but no one should ever make folk 'believe' (by omission) that they've done the work themselves.

 

If someone describes their layout in the media but doesn't mention everyone who's contributed to it (especially where it's been virtually all built for them') then readers might (will?) assume that the work is all that of the writer, especially as introductions often begin in the first person with 'I'm building' such and such a model, when it should read 'I'm having built' such and such a model. 

 

Obviously, it can be a bit tedious where every picture's description has a long list of contributors, but the narrative should always include everyone who's been party to a layout's creation. 

 

Trains running 62 K3 on freight.jpg

 

In the case of this shot (featuring LB in LNER days) the list of contributors to this scene include Norman Solomon, Ian Wilson, Graham Nicholas, Mick Nicholson, Bob Dawson, John Houlden, Rob Davey, Geoff West, 'Anglian', Graeme King, Jonathan Wealleans and me (if I've missed anyone off, my apologies). That's a dozen (at least), and (I hope) this shot shows how, despite so many contributors' individual work, the overall standard is entirely consistent. What's also pleasing is that, in creating it, not a lot of money has changed hands! 

 

Carrying on with the theme of the LNER on LB...........................

 

Trains running 63 freights.jpg

 

The biggest difference (other than the liveries) between the 1938 period and my 1958 depiction is the proportion of freight trains to passenger trains. There are far more freights in the earlier period than in the later. In fact, in my period, over 85% of the trains are passenger ones (as it should be), whereas, just glancing around, I'd say that the passenger trains for 1938 constitute less than 25% of the trains. It could be because the builders have made more freight locos/stock, and that is their preference, but there could be more passenger rakes hiding in boxes.

 

The V2 I made in the top picture has now been sold, though I don't think I'll be paid for it by cheque! 

 

Trains running 64 O2.jpg

 

Another beautifully-observed goods train, getting the road from the Down slow to the Down fast. The loco would appear to be an unaltered Heljan O2/3. When the full LNER running day commences tomorrow, I hope the motive power will be  more 'creative'. I'm sure there are enough locos to make it a bit more special than just a 'parade of RTR motive power'. 

 

I'm looking forward to it...............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Morning Tony,

 

at last, nice to see an unfitted general merchandise freight, more of those would be nice. I would have to agree with your sentiments as regard unadulterated RTR, a Gresley 01 would be rather special. What is the providence of loco 2447? it's not often that you see a K3 that looks like a K3 these days.

 

I'm not totally sold that this is 1938 though, a few anachronisms, more like the LNER's greatest hits. However, the general quality of the modeling is very exciting to observe.

[Clive Mortimore]

You indeed right to point out that there were many heavier trains that were required to be hauled between Doncaster (where the pacific would have to come off) and Leeds. Some trains shed a portion for Hull at Donny but otherwise they would still be quite sizeable trains at least as far as Wakefield (Bradford portion detached) for which the more powerful ex-GC types would have indeed been useful. The trial of the B3s on the southern section only appears to have lasted for a few years. Valour herself was transferred back to Gorton in 1927 but, ironically, was transferred to Copley Hill in 1942 for working between Leeds and Doncaster (after the bridge had been strengthened!?) But of course, that was during extraordinary times.

 

The only picture I've seen of a loco other than an Atlantic on the Queen of Scots Pullman after the B3s and prior to the pacifics taking over is of a Director (5510 Princess Mary), photographed by Maurice Earley in 1932, heading southbound. Was that a substitute for a failure or did they work the train regularly for a time? Interestingly, on the same day Mr Earley photographed the northbound West Riding Pullman exiting Stoke Tunnel hauled by an immaculate Atlantic 3284 - and I mean immaculate, polished buffers, the works! Coach roofs aren't white though...

Hi Grahame

 

I helped look after a chap who when he was younger had been a fireman at Kings Cross. He told me about firing the 4 cylinder Great Central locos. Their "stay" at Kings Cross coincided with LNER being given/buying German reparation coal. He described the coal as being hard small nuggets. He said the blast from the locos was very powerful, he would be shoveling some coal on the fire, the draft would pull these nuggets of the shovel and seconds later there would be a rattling noise on the cab roof as the coal descended back down. He said the GNR atlantics didn't like the German coal but at least it stayed on the fire. He left the railway in the 1930s and drove buses for the rest of his working life.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[richard i]

Tony,

Have reread my first comment on building. In my head I had it emphasizing that you had helped by building the frames and I had built the body. It can be read a different way. That is the devil of the English language, so much is gained from tone etc. when speaking. That is why a lot of the spats seem to me to start on RMWeb, (though very few on this thread).

Thank you as always for the advice and help you give.

Richard

P.s. I would never start a spat here, I don’t want to be sent to the corner with the dunce’s hat on.

[gr.king]

It's a relief to see that the tender behind my K3 No 39 is riding reasonably level, after the exposure of the trouble with 4005's tender!

 

The annoyingly knowledgeable will probably spot that although I changed the cabsides and several other things I cheated with the cab spectacles on Bachmann-based No 39, failing to divide them into two pieces....

 

K3 2447 has rather different origins - scratchbuilt body mostly in plastikard back in April '96 when there seemed no prospect of a RTR model from Bachmann or any other supplier, and when I seriously doubted that my metal handling skills were up to the job of doing justice to the excellent SEF kit. A scratch attempt in plastikard stretched my skills less at a lower financial risk too. The body sits on a chopped V1/V3 chassis, an official pre-packed Bachmann spare in those days, and a modified Replica Railways B1 tender bought spare off their show stand completed the job.

 

I believe Roy Mears will be happy for me to point out that O2 2437 isn't exactly straight-out-of-the-box Heljan. He has done a fair bit to the valve gear (to stop it from sticking out from the sides of the loco, to remove the mechanically unfeasible wrongly placed joint between the eccentric rod and expansion link, and to stop it falling to bits), improved the chimney too I believe and various other details to make it more like the quality of model that it perhaps ought to have been in the first place.....

[jwealleans]

That glass wagon two in front of the peak roofed van looks a bit sick as well - that has sprung suspension on the Bill Bedford system, so one end may have stuck or it may have taken a blow in transit.

[micklner]

O2/3 2437 (no idea re the running number) has the post war classification on the buffer beam. Shed allocation was only shown post war. If that actually matters for the 1938 running session. Nicely reworked as well.

[Bucoops]

How about this is the scenario - Present day Little Bytham (present day being the regular timeline) - and it's been hired for the weekend for the LNER reunion - so there are members from all ages of the LNER present, and they can try their hand and hauling trains they may not have been able to "back in the day".

 

I think I need some strong coffee.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Bucoops

[lanchester]

I understand your sentiment John, but in the eyes of the one who holds the chequebook, they probably don’t see the transaction as any different to buying some wire from Rapid Online, or a point from Peco! It is simply one of many commercial transactions they make as they build (assemble) their own project. Sad but true.

If I understand the modern idiom the correct description should be that the layout has been 'curated by....'. That allows for the possibility/ benefit of the doubt that the owner has actually put a lot of design/research/selection effort in, (and probably Instagramed it), without implying that he/she has ever lifted a soldering iron?

[Headstock]

It's a relief to see that the tender behind my K3 No 39 is riding reasonably level, after the exposure of the trouble with 4005's tender!

 

The annoyingly knowledgeable will probably spot that although I changed the cabsides and several other things I cheated with the cab spectacles on Bachmann-based No 39, failing to divide them into two pieces....

 

K3 2447 has rather different origins - scratchbuilt body mostly in plastikard back in April '96 when there seemed no prospect of a RTR model from Bachmann or any other supplier, and when I seriously doubted that my metal handling skills were up to the job of doing justice to the excellent SEF kit. A scratch attempt in plastikard stretched my skills less at a lower financial risk too. The body sits on a chopped V1/V3 chassis, an official pre-packed Bachmann spare in those days, and a modified Replica Railways B1 tender bought spare off their show stand completed the job.

 

I believe Roy Mears will be happy for me to point out that O2 2437 isn't exactly straight-out-of-the-box Heljan. He has done a fair bit to the valve gear (to stop it from sticking out from the sides of the loco, to remove the mechanically unfeasible wrongly placed joint between the eccentric rod and expansion link, and to stop it falling to bits), improved the chimney too I believe and various other details to make it more like the quality of model that it perhaps ought to have been in the first place.....

 

Thank's for the information on the K3, I thought that the tender had a familiar look but couldn't pin down the rest. Being very much a minor in the art of plasticard modeling, I regard it as a success if I can produce the likes of sandboxes or manifold covers. I always have a tremendous regard for those who can work at a higher skill level, 2447 looks very well indeed.

[Theakerr]

Perhaps a good way to acknowledge contributions to a layout might be along the lines of those used in technical publications as a standard format for journals to follow.  Specifically a list of all direct contributors with the lead being shown as the prime as part of the title block.  Auxiliary references could be added at the end.  I am sure that this thread would get a significant number of references.

[Barry O]

Hope you all enjoy the weekend...some of us are umpiring saturday and sunday..pah!!

 

Baz

[Tony Teague]

Isn't it amazing that re-dating a model layout by 20 years can attract so much interest and become an "event" in its own right?

 

I doubt that doing this to many layouts would cause so much interest, and it surely speaks volumes about the strength of the underlying layout, and of the team that Tony has pulled together around it.

 

Most impressive; I wish you all a great weekend at LB!

 

Tony

[Engineer_London]

Many thanks for the buffer stop test film's link in post 26914 in this thread:  https://player.bfi.o...ord-1945-online

 

After viewing this, I found in the same website a film with scenes on the Witham to Maldon East line in the late 1950s.  I couldn't find a previous mention of this film in a quick RMWeb search.  As well as general interest, and its East Anglia and Eastern Region context, it contains some vignettes of places and activities on the line that could be useful for modeling: 

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-witham-to-maldon-east-1957-online

[Chamby]

Some interesting reference material (on buffer stops and other permanent way stuff, including original drawings) is available on the website oldpway.info.

[2750Papyrus]

There were several different designs of both GN and LNER buffer stops (I think Lanarkshire Models produce kits for some) - it might be worth enquiring of the GNRS regarding use of the alternate designs.

[jrg1]

There were several different designs of both GN and LNER buffer stops (I think Lanarkshire Models produce kits for some) - it might be worth enquiring of the GNRS regarding use of the alternate designs.

Buffer stops had a long life and seemed to be moved around-I saw an NER example at Pyewipe Sidings in Lincoln (GNR).

[Northmoor]

Buffer stops had a long life and seemed to be moved around-I saw an NER example at Pyewipe Sidings in Lincoln (GNR).

A lot of track components had long lives.  My Dad and I found a number of these at Lenwade in 1981:

[Tony Wright]

The LNER running weekend on LB has now ended and, apart from a few items still to be put away, the layout is empty of stock. The upper-quadrant signals have been returned to their rightful place, and Jesse Sim and I will spend tomorrow putting back the 1958 stock. 

 

The whole affair has gone exceptionally well - I've taken dozens and dozens of pictures and 'hours' of video. Jonathan Wealleans has also taken stills and moving footage and Jesse has used his Go-Pro to advantage. What will happen to it all is still to be decided, but, please, watch this space. 

 

 

 

The finale, of course, was MALLARD breaking the speed record. I've got her on video as well.

 

 

 

Jonathan brought along his Stirling Single - surely the finest RTR locomotive ever made in 4mm scale? It ran perfectly.

 

 

Just prior to taking everything off, one last shot of all of us - Roy Mears, me, Graeme King, Graham Nicholas, Jesse Sim and Jonathan Wealleans. Thanks chaps for making it such a great success, and especially to Mo and Isobel Wealleans for such excellent catering. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Barry O]

The LNER running weekend on LB has now ended and, apart from a few items still to be put away, the layout is empty of stock. The upper-quadrant signals have been returned to their rightful place, and Jesse Sim and I will spend tomorrow putting back the 1958 stock. 

 

The whole affair has gone exceptional well - I've taken dozens and dozens of pictures and 'hours' of video. Jonathan Wealleans has also taken stills and moving footage and Jesse has used his Go-Pro to advantage. What will happen to it all is still to be decided, but, please, watch this space. 

 

 Trains running 66 MALLARD.jpg

 

The finale, of course, was MALLARD breaking the speed record. I've got her on video as well.

 

 Trains running 65 Stirling Single.jpg

 

Jonathan brought along his Stirling Single - surely the finest RTR locomotive ever made in 4mm scale? It ran perfectly.

 

Final 03.jpg

 

Just prior to taking everything off, one last shot of all of us - Roy Mears, me, Graeme King, Graham Nicholas, Jesse Sim and Jonathan Wealleans. Thanks chaps for making it such a great success, and especially to Mo and Isobel Wealleans for such excellent catering. 

surprised the camera didn't break taking that photograph!

 

Baz

[gr.king]

I'll just re-iterate my thanks to Tony and Mo for such generous hospitality and witty entertainment over the weekend. I hope we SRB's* didn't cause too much disruption and discomfort.

 

 

The whole affair has gone exceptional well

 

May I also point out that the adverb is exceptionally....

 

*Smelly railway blokes - the official term these days, I gather.

[Suddaby]

Hi Tony,

 

Watching the LNERisation of the layout has been fascinating, and has given you an interesting record of that era. Well done.

I particularly liked the last 2 shots - Mallard at speed, and also the one of the Stirling Single. I had a fabulous day out behind the single at the GC when it paid a visit back in the early 80's.

Also nice to see the perpetrators of the crime!!

 

Anyone tried to persuade you to try the same with Deltics or HST's?      

 

All the best to you and Mo,

 

Kevin

[Tony Wright]

I'll just re-iterate my thanks to Tony and Mo for such generous hospitality and witty entertainment over the weekend. I hope we SRB's* didn't cause too much disruption and discomfort.

 

 

May I also point out that the adverb is exceptionally....

 

*Smelly railway blokes - the official term these days, I gather.

Since corrected! 

 

Thanks for all you've done, Graeme, and thanks to all the others. 

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

Watching the LNERisation of the layout has been fascinating, and has given you an interesting record of that era. Well done.

I particularly liked the last 2 shots - Mallard at speed, and also the one of the Stirling Single. I had a fabulous day out behind the single at the GC when it paid a visit back in the early 80's.

Also nice to see the perpetrators of the crime!!

 

Anyone tried to persuade you to try the same with Deltics or HST's?      

 

All the best to you and Mo,

 

Kevin

Thanks Kevin,

 

I'd need no persuasion to run Deltics (I have drawer full!). It's just that it would tax my 'flexibility' with regard to 'period-accuracy' on LB.

 

Going back 20 years from 1938 was dead easy, given the Cornucopia of locos/stock which the Grantham crew brought along. Graham Nicholas even made two 'replacement' somersault signals to make the scene correct. All I did was to take off my stock, remove any 'modern' road vehicles and 'snap away'. I didn't take off the BR station signage, but these items were hardly noticeable, anyway. 

 

The problem with running Deltics (other than DELTIC itself) is by the time these incredible machines were racing through LB (the beginning of 1961), the station had been closed and razed to the ground (18 months previously). Only the ghost 'footprint' of the platforms remained, along with the signalling (apart from the co-acting Up homes), the signal box, the track layout, the goods shed and the booking hall (the last mentioned still surviving). Though it's possible (just) to lift the platforms (they're held in place with brass pins), they're made in sections and it would require cutting through the platform surfaces and damaging adjacent scenic work. Not only that, though the MR/M&GNR girder bridge remained until March 1963, the trackwork had been lifted since the spring of 1959 and the 'box had been burned to the ground by the summer of that year. 

 

As for HSTs, by the time of their arrival (the summer of 1978), all traces of mechanical signalling and pointwork had been long-gone (though the goods shed and booking hall still stood). 

 

All the above said, I still run production Deltics through (rule 1 applies here!). 

 

We did run Stoke Summit in diesel mode, because it remained 'unaltered' until 1976. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jrg1]

Thanks Kevin,

 

I'd need no persuasion to run Deltics (I have drawer full!). It's just that it would tax my 'flexibility' with regard to 'period-accuracy' on LB.

 

Going back 20 years from 1938 was dead easy, given the Cornucopia of locos/stock which the Grantham crew brought along. Graham Nicholas even made two 'replacement' somersault signals to make the scene correct. All I did was to take off my stock, remove any 'modern' road vehicles and 'snap away'. I didn't take off the BR station signage, but these items were hardly noticeable, anyway. 

 

The problem with running Deltics (other than DELTIC itself) is by the time these incredible machines were racing through LB (the beginning of 1961), the station had been closed and razed to the ground (18 months previously). Only the ghost 'footprint' of the platforms remained, along with the signalling (apart from the co-acting Up homes), the signal box, the track layout, the goods shed and the booking hall (the last mentioned still surviving). Though it's possible (just) to lift the platforms (they're held in place with brass pins), they're made in sections and it would require cutting through the platform surfaces and damaging adjacent scenic work. Not only that, though the MR/M&GNR girder bridge remained until March 1963, the trackwork had been lifted since the spring of 1959 and the 'box had been burned to the ground by the summer of that year. 

 

As for HSTs, by the time of their arrival (the summer of 1978), all traces of mechanical signalling and pointwork had been long-gone (though the goods shed and booking hall still stood). 

 

All the above said, I still run production Deltics through (rule 1 applies here!). 

 

We did run Stoke Summit in diesel mode, because it remained 'unaltered' until 1976. 

 

Regards,

 

 

It may well be unauthentic, and not happened in reality, but a BR Blue era on LB would photograph beautifully-and who would not want to see a HST cruising through the station?

[Northmoor]

Going back 20 years from 1938 was dead easy, given the Cornucopia of locos/stock which the Grantham crew brought along. Graham Nicholas even made two 'replacement' somersault signals to make the scene correct. All I did was to take off my stock, remove any 'modern' road vehicles and 'snap away'. I didn't take off the BR station signage, but these items were hardly noticeable, anyway. 

The backdating of Little Bytham has been a joy to see, thank you Tony for sharing the images with us all.

 

I've racked my brains (the encyclopedic memory for useless information part) to recall another "published" layout that has ever been presented as more than one era, with the same level of attention to detail and discipline for period authenticity? Not counting layouts where a variety of era stock all runs (sometimes together) with the excuse of being a preserved line, can anyone remember a "famous" layout where the builder(s) have after a period exhibiting as perhaps pre-WW2, rebuilt and exhibited the same layout in a post Nationalisation form, or perhaps later into BR Blue era with rationalised infrastructure as you describe?

 

I think it's a fascinating idea and might only work with a group/club where there is a spread of interest in more than one distinct era, otherwise we tend to stick with the era that interests us, not those before or after.

 

Rob