Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

The advice that was given on a thread on scaleforum was this ... which also refers to another thread on RMWeb.

 

 

I then asked the same question about my Hornby R965 controller and got this

 

 

I am not particularly electrically minded so can't comment.

 

I found it interesting that you appeared to be using the H & M with I assumed little problem over an extended period of time - proof of the pudding and all that.

 

I suppose the problem is that if tested as suggested above your's may well score very well, where as another may not ... given their age?

I'm certainly not electrically-minded, Tim.

 

My use of H&M controllers has been over decades. I have a Clipper to control the M&GNR bit of LB and a Duette to (partly) control the GN fiddle yard. Add on to that another Clipper for test purposes. 

 

I have a Duette, a Clipper and a Safety Minor (how old is that?!) in my workshop powering test tracks, mini drills and rolling roads. I also take a Clipper with me to shows as part of my demo/loco-doctoring roles. 

 

All have given yeoman service, the only thing needing replacement being a couple of the resistance mats (over four decades - five for the Safety Minor) of use). 

 

We also had Clippers as test controllers on Stoke Summit and Charwelton.

 

At no time have any of them caused harm to a motor. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Tony Wright

[St Enodoc]

Tony,

 

The advice that was given on a thread on scaleforum was this ... which also refers to another thread on RMWeb.

 

 

I then asked the same question about my Hornby R965 controller and got this

 

 

I am not particularly electrically minded so can't comment.

 

I found it interesting that you appeared to be using the H & M with I assumed little problem over an extended period of time - proof of the pudding and all that.

 

I suppose the problem is that if tested as suggested above your's may well score very well, where as another may not ... given their age?

This seems to be an example of something that works in practice but doesn't work in theory...

[St Enodoc]

I'm certainly not electrically-minded, Tim.

 

My use of H&M controllers has been over decades. I have a Clipper to control the M&GNR bit of LB and a Duette to (partly) control the GN fiddle yard. Add on to that another Clipper for test purposes. 

 

I have a Duette, a Clipper and a Safety Minor (how old is that?!) in my workshop powering test tracks, mini drills and rolling roads. I also take a Clipper with me to shows as part of my demo/loco-doctoring roles. 

 

All have given yeoman service, the only thing needing replacement being a couple of the resistance mats (over four decades - five for the Safety Minor) of use). 

 

We also had Clippers as test controllers on Stoke Summit and Charwelton.

 

At no time have any of them caused harm to a motor. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

This makes me feel positively youthful - although (as Tony knows) I use DCC to run my trains, I have an H&M Executive for running in locos before chipping, powering my mini-drill and other such tasks that need 12 (nominal) V dc. I bought it new from Harburn Hobbies (when they were still in Leith) round about Christmas 1972.

[asmay2002]

We're off to Perth and the West Coast next month - not much there of historic railway interest, I suspect.

http://www.railheritagewa.org.au/museum/museum.php

 

http://www.australiansteam.com/wagrframe.htm

 

http://www.australiansteam.com/waprivateframe.htm

[Lecorbusier]

This makes me feel positively youthful - although (as Tony knows) I use DCC to run my trains, I have an H&M Executive for running in locos before chipping, powering my mini-drill and other such tasks that need 12 (nominal) V dc. I bought it new from Harburn Hobbies (when they were still in Leith) round about Christmas 1972.

I can trump that ... in the age of the controller if not the operator. 

 

My H & M was bought for me along with a starter  Triang/Hornby 'Nellie' set in I think 1968. I was too young for it and only allowed to get it out on high days and holidays.

 

I like my H & M ... enough said.

[grahame]

Interesting that the box (cover and inside) are branded 'Tri-ang Railways' whereas the instruction booklet/leaflet has 'Tri-ang Hornby' emblazoned on it.

 

G

[Clive Mortimore]

Tony,

 

The advice that was given on a thread on scaleforum was this ... which also refers to another thread on RMWeb.

 

 

I then asked the same question about my Hornby R965 controller and got this

 

 

I am not particularly electrically minded so can't comment.

 

I found it interesting that you appeared to be using the H & M with I assumed little problem over an extended period of time - proof of the pudding and all that.

 

I suppose the problem is that if tested as suggested above your's may well score very well, where as another may not ... given their age?

I am not a H&M fan, but I am a realistic DC user. The way I read some threads on controllers and motors you would think as railway modellers we are handling something so precious and delicate that just breathing near it could set up an airflow that would blow it over and wreak it forever. Most of us run RTR locos, many kit locos are constructed (even those with glue) as to take a pounding. Their motors are generally robust.

 

I recently tested over 150 locos that had been in storage, those rotten Lima powered locos which everyone since time began has said are useless, not one was failed. Hornby ringfileds a couple ended up donating parts to get others running but all locos with them ran. Two Tri-ang powered locos are waiting to be repaired, one because of the mods I done to the motor bogie it gave up the ghost, new bogie needs to be modified but not like last one was. The other, a twin powered MTK kit, I broke the insulation on one bogie, I broke it, it was not a failure. Another MTK loco with two MTK power bogies is drawing too much current and that need investigating. Tyco, Jouef and Airfix all ran after I spent a little time on them.  Three Mainline Peak chassis were condemned, and that was down to them being a cheap toy motor.  All had a good thrash as well as making them run slowly.

 

All this testing of voltage, amperage, wattage etc, as for using an oscilloscope. What a waste of time, bung it on the track, goes good or runs poorly or even no go. Check it out in a logical order, see what needs oil, see what needs cleaning, see if you can find that brush spring that has gone ping on the floor. It will go once sorted. Older locos may not go so well as they did when young, could be the magnet which not much can be done except get it remagnetised. There can be some wear and tear issues but otherwise they can be fixed.

 

They are manufactured to take sudden power increases, instantaneous power stoppage when working full load, after all they are basically toys designed to be played with.

[St Enodoc]

I can trump that ... in the age of the controller if not the operator. 

 

My H & M was bought for me along with a starter  Triang/Hornby 'Nellie' set in I think 1968. I was too young for it and only allowed to get it out on high days and holidays.

 

I like my H & M ... enough said.

s-l1600.jpg

Wouldn't get much for that price nowadays.

 

Where's the H&M though?????

[Woodcock29]

I've always kept H&M units as back up supplies.

 

I think I currently have a Duette, a Powermaster and a Clipper. Good robust units and useful for extra 12v + supplies when needed. I sold an old Powermaster, a Duette, a Clipper and a Safety Minor a while back though. They still fetch reasonable prices here in Australia. .

 

However, my eight layout controllers are all Gaugemaster Controllers supplied by individual transformers located in a large Power Box.

 

Andrew

[Jesse Sim]

Dear Jesse,

 

My apologies!

 

I'm afraid I've probably got the wrong spelling on the little parcel I've just sent you - wheels, nuts/bolts, etc.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

P.S. English is a proper noun, and should always have a capital first letter! 

Listen, don't try and sweet talk me by sending me an early Christmas present!

 

I am totally joking, thanks Tony, I really appreciate it.

 

As soon as the extension timber work is finished, which should be done in the next few days and my work bench is up and running, I will crack on with that tender. 

 

If it isn't too much trouble any chance on those photos of the lift out section? Also a photo of where the rails run over the joins wouldn't go a miss either. I appreciate everything Tony. 

 

I wont get the magazine for a couple of weeks, bloody Aussie post! 

[AndyID]

Tim,

 

That H&M Clipper controls all the trains on the M&GNR bit. Many of the locos I've built which haul those trains have Mashima motors. All run perfectly. I just have it set on High Resistance and Full Wave. 

 

Where has it been suggested that resistance-mat controllers (H&Ms) are not great with Mashima-style motors? As for damaging or shortening a motor's life, who's suggested that? 

 

A friend once scoffed because I still used H&M controllers - though the main line has Helmsman controllers, the fiddle yard shuffle and the kick-back sidings are controlled by Duettes. I find them still excellent.

 

Though this might sound repetitive, regular visits to a friend who uses DCC never cease to amuse me. By the time he's faffed around setting macros, routes, signals and called-up the loco (which often won't 'listen'), I could have run all ten trains on my MR/M&GNR bit!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Hi Tony,

 

If they are working "as designed" it's unlikely that old H&M controllers will cause a problem. The concern is that the rectifiers (probably selenium?) do not last forever and if/when they start to break-down the output will have a considerable AC component that will damage motors. The best way to determine if this is happening is with an oscilloscope. Even if it is, it might be possible for an electrical engineer to substitute silicon diodes for the original rectifiers.

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

Listen, don't try and sweet talk me by sending me an early Christmas present!

 

I am totally joking, thanks Tony, I really appreciate it.

 

As soon as the extension timber work is finished, which should be done in the next few days and my work bench is up and running, I will crack on with that tender. 

 

If it isn't too much trouble any chance on those photos of the lift out section? Also a photo of where the rails run over the joins wouldn't go a miss either. I appreciate everything Tony. 

 

I wont get the magazine for a couple of weeks, bloody Aussie post! 

Good morning Jesse,

 

I don't know what the postal service to Australia is like, but there are two parcels on their way to you/your family, both with your name incorrectly spelled. One contains the wheels for the tender you need, plus various BA nuts and bolts, and the other some pictures and a disc.

 

I'll take some pictures of my lift-out section and post them on here for you - plus the one of John's (which is slightly different).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

P.S. You're not alone in using 'done' instead of 'did', or, 'good' instead of 'well'. Look at another post on the previous page! 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Lecorbusier]

Wouldn't get much for that price nowadays.

 

Where's the H&M though?????

I assume bought separately ... I still have the original box for one of them .... inherited from my brother in law.

 

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

If they are working "as designed" it's unlikely that old H&M controllers will cause a problem. The concern is that the rectifiers (probably selenium?) do not last forever and if/when they start to break-down the output will have a considerable AC component that will damage motors. The best way to determine if this is happening is with an oscilloscope. Even if it is, it might be possible for an electrical engineer to substitute silicon diodes for the original rectifiers.

 

Andy

Thanks Andy,

 

But please remember to whom you're talking - a complete electrical dunce! 

 

I think I've heard of selenium (isn't it a current girl's name) and I've only seen an oscilloscope in old, B&W science fiction movies. 

 

I can only speak as I find. I must have about eight H&M controllers of various ages (a friend still uses his 50+ year old 'Powermaster' to run his collection of locos - from the dawn of electrical time to modern RTR, with excellent results) and most still see weekly (if not daily) use. As I mentioned, down the years, the only things which have failed have been two resistance mats (the wires just broke through prolonged use). Fortunately I have spares, so just drilled out the pop rivets, removed the old mat, fitted a new one, soldered it all in place and used self-tapping screws to put the units back together. The last-mentioned will now cause apoplexy among the H&S brigade. 'If you remove those screws you'll expose live wires!' I leave them where they are. 

 

So far, apart from those mats, the units have controlled locos/drills/test tracks/rolling roads/etc, in exactly the same way down the years as when I bought the first one - now over 50 years ago. How will I know if a rectifier is breaking down? Will it 'kill' a motor? Will a loco's performance alter? I genuinely ask these questions.

 

An H&M-type controller could not be sold new today, presumably? Yet, one sees dozens of them at shows for sale second-hand (often in dusty boxes below a table). Is this legal, I wonder?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Tony Wright

[jwealleans]

I think I've heard of selenium

 

She was Head Girl at my school.

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks Andy,

 

But please remember to whom you're talking - a complete electrical dunce! 

 

I think I've heard of selenium (isn't it a current girl's name) and I've only seen an oscilloscope in old, B&W science fiction movies. 

 

I can only speak as I find. I must have about eight H&M controllers of various ages (a friend still uses his 50+ year old 'Powermaster' to run his collection of locos - from the dawn of electrical time to modern RTR, with excellent results) and most still see weekly (if not daily) use. As I mentioned, down the years, the only things which have failed have been two resistance mats (the wires just broke through prolonged use). Fortunately I have spares, so just drilled out the pop rivets, removed the old mat, fitted a new one, soldered it all in place and used self-tapping screws to put the units back together. The last-mentioned will now cause apoplexy among the H&S brigade. 'If you remove those screws you'll expose live wires!' I leave them where they are. 

 

So far, apart from those mats, the units have controlled locos/drills/test tracks/rolling roads/etc, in exactly the same way down the years as when I bought the first one - now over 50 years ago. How will I know if a rectifier is breaking down? Will it 'kill' a motor? Will a loco's performance alter? I genuinely ask these questions.

 

An H&M-type controller could not be sold new today, presumably? Yet, one sees dozens of them at shows for sale second-hand (often in dusty boxes below a table). Is this legal, I wonder?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

I personally would not buy any old design of controller secondhand, just like I wouldn't buy a vintage lamp stand or an electric fire just simple wear and tare issues can make them dangerous. If someone already has one and keeps an eye on the state of the mains lead etc and considers it still safe to use, then OK.

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

If they are working "as designed" it's unlikely that old H&M controllers will cause a problem. The concern is that the rectifiers (probably selenium?) do not last forever and if/when they start to break-down the output will have a considerable AC component that will damage motors. The best way to determine if this is happening is with an oscilloscope. Even if it is, it might be possible for an electrical engineer to substitute silicon diodes for the original rectifiers.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

 

How many years of general usage do selenium rectifiers start to break down and cause a problem to our model locomotive and multiple units motors?

[Bucoops]

Does selenium have a half life? Sounds a bit nuclear!

[sdmjsmith]

Tony and all other contributors to this excellent thread,

 

Some two years ago, suddenly finding myself with a lot of free time, I stuck my toe back into the murkey waters of Railway Modelling after a hiatus of over 40 years.  Boy has it changed!

 

I want to model the scenes I remember as a teenager and to that end I knew I needed to develop my scratchbuilding and kit bashing skills.  I started on buildings and moved onto rolling stock.  Very early on I purchased a Bachmann brake van so that I could see the standard I would attempt to achieve.  To test things I also bought a DJM J94 and a Hornby J50.  I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I could build a locomotive.  And then I found this thread!

 

Inspired, in May, I took the plunge.  Today, after loads of cursing, tears, joy, dollars, burnt fingers etc, etc.  I ran my first loco around a small test circuit pulling and propelling a rake of 10 wagons (410grams no less)!  Miraculously, she seems to do so just as well as the bought ones!

 

 

It has many shortcomings - no brakes (too concerned about shorts), no wash stripes (need to figure out how to do these without making an unholy mess), and no connecting rods (don't put a cutting broach in a power tool!).  But I built it!

 

And so to the point of my - first ever - comment on this thread.  Interestingly, in the building process, I have completely lost the sense of reverence I had for my RTR locos.  I knew I would need to renumber them, but when I started looking at photos I realised I either needed a new J94 with an extended bunker, or I would need to apply my newly acquired skills.  Since the latter is far more rewarding and satisfying, I've done just that.

 

[Lecorbusier]

Does selenium have a half life? Sounds a bit nuclear!

Or Dr Who ... no ... wait a minute ... that's Silurians 

 

[Lecorbusier]

Tony and all other contributors to this excellent thread,

 

Some two years ago, suddenly finding myself with a lot of free time, I stuck my toe back into the murkey waters of Railway Modelling after a hiatus of over 40 years.  Boy has it changed!

 

I want to model the scenes I remember as a teenager and to that end I knew I needed to develop my scratchbuilding and kit bashing skills.  I started on buildings and moved onto rolling stock.  Very early on I purchased a Bachmann brake van so that I could see the standard I would attempt to achieve.  To test things I also bought a DJM J94 and a Hornby J50.  I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I could build a locomotive.  And then I found this thread!

 

Inspired, in May, I took the plunge.  Today, after loads of cursing, tears, joy, dollars, burnt fingers etc, etc.  I ran my first loco around a small test circuit pulling and propelling a rake of 10 wagons (410grams no less)!  Miraculously, she seems to do so just as well as the bought ones!

 

 

 

It has many shortcomings - no brakes (too concerned about shorts), no wash stripes (need to figure out how to do these without making an unholy mess), and no connecting rods (don't put a cutting broach in a power tool!).  But I built it!

 

And so to the point of my - first ever - comment on this thread.  Interestingly, in the building process, I have completely lost the sense of reverence I had for my RTR locos.  I knew I would need to renumber them, but when I started looking at photos I realised I either needed a new J94 with an extended bunker, or I would need to apply my newly acquired skills.  Since the latter is far more rewarding and satisfying, I've done just that.

 

Yippee! ... another convert 

[Tony Wright]

Good morning again, Jesse,

 

As promised...................

 

 

The lifting section on LB was built, as were all the baseboards, by my dear friend, Norman Turner, of WMRC, in exchange for locomotives. It's a form of 'future-proofing' against the time when none of the operators can bend! It lifts just 'over-centre', with a bracket attached to the roof joists to stop it going too far. 

 

 

The hinges came from an old paste table, and are turned round so to speak. All the main framework/deck, like the baseboards, was built of 9mm top-grade, birch ply. 

 

 

Connecting wires were made long enough to loop up and down with the lifting section's movement.

 

 

The end of the lifting section rests on this substantial strip of 9mm ply. Because everything is made of the same material, no problems have been encountered with twisting or warping. 

 

 

Once dropped down, tracks are aligned using appropriate sizes of brass tube and brass rod, the tubes being soldered to the copperclad strip and the rails BEFORE the rails/tubes were cut with a slitting disc. The tubes/rods give alignment and pass electricity. Note the substantial copperclad strips, Araldited to the top of the baseboards for security. I've seen rails soldered to individual (puny) copperclad sleepers or rails just soldered to brass screws at baseboard edges. Hopeless! 

 

 

A very important bit (one of a pair, one each side). This household brass sliding latch performs two functions. One, it ensures correct initial alignment and, two, most-importantly, without it being slid into place (both sides), no electricity can be fed to the lifting section. Thus, no Down train can disappear into the abyss should the lifting section be inadvertently left up! Up trains stop just before it, anyway, if it's left up. 

 

 

Because the thing goes over centre when raised, to prevent rail ends clouting each other, they're a bit far apart with the deck down. No matter, it just gives a most-realistic clicketty-clack as the wheels cross the joints. Are these gaps too big for P4?

 

 

St Enodoc's lifting section. Variations on a theme? 

 

I hope all these help. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Tony and all other contributors to this excellent thread,

 

Some two years ago, suddenly finding myself with a lot of free time, I stuck my toe back into the murkey waters of Railway Modelling after a hiatus of over 40 years.  Boy has it changed!

 

I want to model the scenes I remember as a teenager and to that end I knew I needed to develop my scratchbuilding and kit bashing skills.  I started on buildings and moved onto rolling stock.  Very early on I purchased a Bachmann brake van so that I could see the standard I would attempt to achieve.  To test things I also bought a DJM J94 and a Hornby J50.  I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I could build a locomotive.  And then I found this thread!

 

Inspired, in May, I took the plunge.  Today, after loads of cursing, tears, joy, dollars, burnt fingers etc, etc.  I ran my first loco around a small test circuit pulling and propelling a rake of 10 wagons (410grams no less)!  Miraculously, she seems to do so just as well as the bought ones!

 

 

 

It has many shortcomings - no brakes (too concerned about shorts), no wash stripes (need to figure out how to do these without making an unholy mess), and no connecting rods (don't put a cutting broach in a power tool!).  But I built it!

 

And so to the point of my - first ever - comment on this thread.  Interestingly, in the building process, I have completely lost the sense of reverence I had for my RTR locos.  I knew I would need to renumber them, but when I started looking at photos I realised I either needed a new J94 with an extended bunker, or I would need to apply my newly acquired skills.  Since the latter is far more rewarding and satisfying, I've done just that.

 

What great stuff Mr. Smith (I assume it's Mr, and Smith?),

 

Thanks ever so much for posting these images. 

 

You're an inspiration to the moaners and those who say 'I can't do that'. 

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of making your own locos.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

Good morning again, Jesse,

 

As promised...................

 

 

 

In the spirit of rigour and correctness .... shouldn't it say  Model Railway Behind? ... or is there another one beyond the door?

[Tony Wright]

Or Dr Who ... no ... wait a minute ... that's Silurians 

 

download.jpg

Good morning Tim,

 

Since I've never watched Doctor Who since the first days of William Hartnell, I had no idea that Silurians were an alien race. 

 

 

A much better-looking SILURIAN (in my opinion) in 1964 at York. A year later, when I last saw her, she (he?) was nameless and abandoned on 50A.

 

 

Since I saw her on many occasions, I had to build a model of her - from a DJH kit (kindly given to me by Andrew Emmet), painted by Geoff Haynes. 

[Tony Wright]

In the spirit of rigour and correctness .... shouldn't it say  Model Railway Behind? ... or is there another one beyond the door?

The sign is seen by visitors as they approach LB, with the door open.