Wright writes.....

[jrg1]

Our annual holiday saw us return to Ireland and catching the Rosslare Boat Train to Waterford and return.  I still remember sitting in a 6-wheel coach and rolling on-stop as speed increased-almost like being on the ship!

[TrevorP1]

This one is more recent and it does wobble a bit......

https://youtu.be/cs2NPFkR8Xw

 

I can assure you that trains still wobble considerably on uneven track

 

 

A good few years back I had a similar experience standing on the platform at Micheldever watching Scotsman come down out of the tunnels. I was there with one other chap - how times have changed - and we both wondered if it would be the last steam engine we ever saw!

[great central]

The thing which interests me about this clip is that the Loco certainly is bucking about ... but is the same true for the coaches? certainly as they pass on through the station they seem quite serene?

If the coaches behave anything like it, they will be rocking and rolling.

[The Stationmaster]

Was it not the case that when CWR started to be adopted, the speed limit on 4 wheel stock had to be radically reduced as it hunted so much it eventually threw itself off the track? It had been the impact of wheels on rail joints over the years which had prevented the effect from manifesting itself earlier.

 

Another of those things which is realistic but looks like bad modelling/.

 

It started before then with increasing use of diesels on freight trains but it got a lot worse after CWR came in - due to cyclic build up of some sort if I recall correctly.

Some BR mainline diesels are definitely prone to building up a rolling motion in the body - Brush type 4s (Class 47( being far and away the worst in my experience while our dearly loved 1000s (Class 52) had a very nasty and uncomfortable habit of developing a bounce at about 50-53mph and not getting out of it until they got to around 60 mph.

 

Poor riding is not in the exclusive preserve of various steam classes, many locos are inclined to roll a bit.

[MikeTrice]

The thing which interests me about this clip is that the Loco certainly is bucking about ... but is the same true for the coaches? certainly as they pass on through the station they seem quite serene?

The locomotive seems to bounce more over the switches, less so on the plain track. A lot also depends on the quality of the tracklaying.

[Hollar]

I think much of what you refer to as ‘sloppiness’ is inevitable, given that the tolerances necessary in 1:76 scale up to far more than they would be in 12 inches to the foot. Also, the focal length of the lens you use when photographing can be very cruel in some situations, both model and full scale.

 

There was an interesting discussion in last weeks ‘Great Model Railways Challenge’ about modelling water, and how it was impossible to get real water to look right because it’s movement properties do not scale down, so any waves and ripples are wholly unrealistic. The same is probably true of other wave-like movement, such as undulations and oscillations that equally do not scale down, and just don’t look right when observed in 1:76. This may be down to the properties of the materials themselves, as much as the issue of tolerances.

 

So don’t beat yourself up if your fastidious modelling doesn’t perform like the real thing, you can’t warp the laws of physics!

 

Phil.

There is much in what you say, but the mill pool in the Gravetts' Penpoul looks to me amazingly like real water have its surface just ruffled slightly.  Every tiny ruffle added by hand, apparently.

 

Tone

[Hollar]

I also sat in that carriage in the early 60s.  It would knock the fillings out of your teeth,

 

Tone

[MikeTrice]

There is an old trick I learnt many years ago. Imagine you are painting or drawing a portrait of someone. You are so focussed on it you sometimes fail to see differences between what you see and what you paint. Try looking at the painting through a mirror and your brain sees things differently.

 

You have lived with the model of LB for a number of years and your brain is used to seeing things perform in a specific way. Try observing running trains through a mirror and see if they look different.

[Enterprisingwestern]

The thing which interests me about this clip is that the Loco certainly is bucking about ... but is the same true for the coaches? certainly as they pass on through the station they seem quite serene?

 

The coaches won't rock and roll nearly as much because the suspension is damped in 2 or 3 different planes, both secondary and primary.

A steam loco only has the equivalent of cart springs.

 

Mike.

[APOLLO]

Bad track doesn't help either

 

 

Brit15

[Lecorbusier]

Bad track doesn't help either

 

 

 

Brit15

blimey!

Edited November 8, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[MikeTrice]

Bad track doesn't help either

 

That is something that cannot be said of Little Bytham.

[Bucoops]

Good job no guards van on the back - would've spilt his tea!

[great central]

Good job no guards van on the back - would've spilt his tea!

I still do on occasion:-(

[Tony Wright]

Just a question, please, Tony. On the recent footage you have of LB, on the last (A4 hauled) train to feature, there is an RF and a Restaurant Pantry third in the stock, but it appears that the pantry end is at the opposite end from the kitchen of the RF, would this be the normal marshalling? I would have thought the Pantry end would be next to the kitchen of the RF, purely for staff access. Having just finished (?) a pair of these and they will be permanently coupled I would like to know which way is "normal".

 

Chas

I can't remember the footage, Chas,

 

Was it the most-recent? 

 

If I've got it that way round, it's probably wrong, and having the pantry next to the kitchen would make sense. However, in practice, some vehicles did get changed around, especially as a late substitute. 

 

Which train was it?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for all the comments today about the dynamics of trains, both full-sized and model. 

 

Looking at some of that moving footage, I'm rather pleased. Some of my locos appear to run most-realistically! However, none of my tenders bounce and yaw from side to side as much as that Prinny's tender in one shot.

 

What is apparent, is that any bouncing/yawing is exacerbated by a telephoto lens, something I've noticed in my videoing, where I've zoomed in a bit. Happily, carriages are much more stable, though freight stock (four-wheeled) does wibble and wobble - realistic? 

[Tom F]

Tony....nobody said you were in North Wales?

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136923-cwm-prysor-bala-blaenau-ffestiniog-branch/?p=3358870

[ScRSG]

I can't remember the footage, Chas,

 

Was it the most-recent? 

 

If I've got it that way round, it's probably wrong, and having the pantry next to the kitchen would make sense. However, in practice, some vehicles did get changed around, especially as a late substitute. 

 

Which train was it?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

It was on the recent hand held footage and quite near the end, a long following shot of a train , A4 hauled, first couple of coaches in blood and custard but the catering cars in question were maroon, does that help?

 

Chas

[Headstock]

I can't remember the footage, Chas,

 

Was it the most-recent? 

 

If I've got it that way round, it's probably wrong, and having the pantry next to the kitchen would make sense. However, in practice, some vehicles did get changed around, especially as a late substitute. 

 

Which train was it?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Evening Tony,

 

in practice it wasn't uncommon for the pantry thirds to run wrong way about. Often the pantry would be sealed as the carriage was operating as a standard open third. Some of the late war built examples even went into service as open firsts, again with the pantry closed off, while the genuine open firsts were undergoing refurbishment.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Headstock

[Tony Wright]

Tony....nobody said you were in North Wales?

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136923-cwm-prysor-bala-blaenau-ffestiniog-branch/?p=3358870

Yes,

 

That's me on the left, complete with camera.

 

A friend is painting 'me' (am I dry yet, Tim?), and (the ultimate in pomposity!!!!) I'm going to stand myself on one of LB's platforms, taking pictures. 

[Tony Wright]

It was on the recent hand held footage and quite near the end, a long following shot of a train , A4 hauled, first couple of coaches in blood and custard but the catering cars in question were maroon, does that help?

 

Chas

Chas,

 

It's actually the W1 which is hauling the train (that's what threw me in trying to identify the train in question). 

 

I can easily change the car around. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[uax6]

I can certainly say that from the box it can be quite disconcerting watching freights going past. Theres a bit of a kick in the up platform (which is on a left hand curve, the box being on the outside of the curve on the downside) and there is also a ski-jump over the underpass, which drops within about 4 yards to go over the level crossing. Then about a chain further on, there is about a chain of cyclic top.

The four wheelers that used to be loaded with sand (to 50ton) would not noticeably react much to the kick, but to the ski jump and cyclic top they would look like they were going to jump off. The bogies (loaded to 100t) that have replaced them really jolt over the kick, jump up over the ski jump, and then buck all over the place on the cyclic top.

 

I read somewhere that cart-sprung wagons need the rail joints to give the springs a kick to re-set them, and when you remove them with CWR, the springs effectively lock and become ineffective, allowing the wagons to eventually to jump the rails.....

 

Andy G

[ScRSG]

Chas,

 

It's actually the W1 which is hauling the train (that's what threw me in trying to identify the train in question). 

 

I can easily change the car around. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Shows what kind of trainspotter I am! Just needed to know if either marshalling was correct - no need to turn your ones round if this happened a lot.

 

Chas

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I've had a few bouncy rides on Diesels, the worse was on a Brush 2, normally a good ride, it was a wet spot, and a non local Kings Cross loco, and had no arm rests, hit the wet spot at about 70 MPH, she dipped so much, I left the chair, and not having arm rests had nothing to hold onto, ended up on my bum on the floor.

 

manna 

[St Enodoc]

G'Day Folks

 

I've had a few bouncy rides on Diesels, the worse was on a Brush 2, normally a good ride, it was a wet spot, and a non local Kings Cross loco, and had no arm rests, hit the wet spot at about 70 MPH, she dipped so much, I left the chair, and not having arm rests had nothing to hold onto, ended up on my bum on the floor.

 

manna 

The east end of Cadder Yard was a good spot to hold on tight when you were in the back cab of a Class 27 at the rear of an Edinburgh - Glasgow push-pull.