Wright writes.....

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks ever so much, Mike,

 

The rear of the tender is not lined. It looks as if it should have been, then: incorrectly? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Tony I'm trying to find a published photo to prove that one way or the other.   Thus far the the only pic of 4358 I've found is a front three quarter but I have a very large number of books still to go through!

[Clem]

Hi Tony. I've just watched the Little Bytham 1958 video. Great viewing, good presentation and a fantastic effort by you and all who have contributed. It brought it all back. Just like being there in 1958 and the natural sound was incredibly effective. One tiny criticism if I may... I think you should smile a little more when presenting. For what you've achieved, there's plenty to smile about. I'm being hypocritical here as I also get criticised for not smiling enough when I play guitar in the band. 

So, thank you. I've had a very entertaining morning watching it and I'm sure that I'll be the first of many to say the same. 

 

BTW if I ever write Little Lytham on here rather than Little Bytham it's not ignorance, it's that damned auto corrector.

 

Best wishes 

 

Clem 

[Howard Smith]

Don't miss Tony Wright's 'Little Bytham', filmed and photographed in its 1958 running guise for the March issue of BRM and on the DVD (for subscribers): https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/141676-brm-march-2019/

Howard

[Mallard60022]

I rather like the old Airfix 4F body as well, Tony. This is my 44422 on 'Engine Wood':

ew119.jpg

 

This has an Airfix body, a Comet chassis and an Alan Gibson tender.

 

Saw that in real life at Barrow Road in 1963; only time I went to that Shed and it was a day trip to Bristol (from Plymouth) with walking between Temple Meads and this shed, followed by St Philip's Marsh. Barrow Road was still mostly MR at that time. Got thrown out before we could get in the Roundhouse! Think I might have had some sort of Runabout Ticket as I remember going up to Westbury as well on another day; that was almost empty sadly.

Couldn't say if '22 looked like that though and I didn't realise at the time that it was a S & DJR stalwart.

Happy days.

[APOLLO]

Fowler 4F's, common as muck round Wigan & South Lancs--- until suddenly there were none.

 

Usually one was stationed at Westwood Park signal box on the L&Y Pemberton loop / Wigan avoiding line to bank the heavy coal trains from Yorkshire up to Orrell. I remember watching these trains by the hundred from my parent's bedroom window late 50's early 60's, too far away to see their numbers though. Usually a Black 8 or Dub Dee up front. Bread & butter railroading !!.

 

Two of Dad's photos.

 

Two for the chop - Central Wagon Ince Wigan - early 60's. Looks like 44119.

 

 

An LCGB special at St Helens Central (The old GC line). 4F No  44501. 21/9/1963

 

 

Another of those "Grand days out" (courtesy of Six Bells Jcn) - Weren't Gricers well dressed back then - suits & ties in Mucky St Helens !!!!.

 

 

21st September 1963

The Locomotive Club of Great Britain (North West Branch)
The South Lancashire Limited Rail Tour

Locos Used 44501, 47378 (4), 48115 & 48178 Stock Used advertised for 'open type stock' with a buffet car

Route : 1T70 throughout

Loco(s) Route 48178 (1) Manchester Liverpool Road Goods Depot - Ordsall Lane - Eccles - Worsley Jn - Ellenbrook - Tyldesley - Chowbent East Jn - Chowbent North Jn - Atherton Bag Lane - Rumworth Goods Jn - Bolton Great Moor Steet 47378 (2) Bolton Great Moor Street - Plodder Lane for Farnworth - Little Hulton 47378 (2) Little Hulton - Plodder Lane for Farnworth - Bolton Great Moor Steet 48178 Bolton Great Moor Street - Atherton - Chowbent West Jn - Hindley Green - Bickershaw East Jn - Bickershaw West Jn - Strangeways East Jn - Hindley South - Lower Ince - Wigan Central 48178 Wigan Central - Lower Ince - Hindley South - Strangeways East Jn - Bickershaw West Jn - Bickershaw South Jn - Bickershaw Colliery (Through Line) - Plank Lane - Pennington - Kenyon Jn - Parkside East Jn - Bamfurlong Sidings (Through Line) - Amberswood West Jn - Amberswood East Jn - De Trafford Jn - Whelley - Haigh Jn - Adlington 48178 Adlington - Horwich West Jn - Horwich Works 44501 Horwich Works - Horwich South Jn - Hilton House - Aspull Jn - Crow Nest Jn - Hindley - De Trafford Jn 44501 De Trafford Jn - Amberswood East Jn - Hindley South - Bickershaw & Abram - West Leigh & Bedford - Lowton St Mary's 44501 Lowton St Mary's - Haydock Park - Ashton-in-Makerfield - Haydock - St Helens Central 44501 St Helens Central - (reverse of outward route) - Lowton St Mary's - Culcheth - Glazebrook Moss - Glazebrook West Jn - Urmston - Manchester Central

Notes :
(1) Banked by 48115 from Atherton Bag Lane.
(2) 47378 stalled on the hill and so 48178 banked.
(3) Train passed through 'Plank Lane Flash' with water lapping at the rails. It is believed this was the last train to pass on that line.
(4) Loco identity given as 47376 in the LCGB 'The First Hundred' brochure, however this is assumed to be in error as that loco had been scrapped prior to this date.

 

 

 

Brit15

Edited January 24, 2019 by APOLLO

[Tony Wright]

I use a tender drive on hand built track and it works well. It's my Midland single 632 which is driven by to motors on the outer tender axles with the loco acting as extra pick ups. It was impossible to get two axles driven on the loco so we went for tender drive and there is working valve gear on the driving axle. The bogie is softly sprung and does it's job. We have not had any trouble with running it. The tender however weighs over 3 lbs as it is full of lead, motors and gearboxes. The tender has caused a few raised a few eyebrows when on a Sunday afternoon it has hauled 4 brass clerestories round the layout on it's own.

 

 

Jamie

Thanks Jamie,

 

I'll bet, though, your Single (in O Gauge?) doesn't have a cheap pancake motor, doesn't have noisy plastic gears and doesn't have traction tyres. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Denbridge]

A quick question if i may? Where do you get your PVC sleeping as used on pickups? My former source from a friend has now dried up, so looks like I have to actually buy some. I've had a quick look online and haven't had much luck. Many thanks in anticipation.

[Denbridge]

A quick question if i may? Where do you get your PVC sleeping as used on pickups? My former source from a friend has now dried up, so looks like I have to actually buy some. I've had a quick look online and haven't had much luck. Many thanks in anticipation.

sorry. Sleeving.

[Tony Wright]

Airfix tender drive 4Fs?

 

Good starting points, body-wise (though the splashers are a bit too big). 

 

 

Here's one, complete with a SE Finecast chassis and decent motor/gearbox combination, heading west at Little Bytham with a Lynn-Nottingham ex-LMS three-set. All I've done body-wise to this is renumber it, add a few details and weather it. 

 

The carriages are interesting. They were built by Larry Goddard, and came to me in a very sorry state. Bogie-less, with some windows pushed in, interiors loose and a few body scuffs, I've managed to make bogies for them, repair where I could and patch-paint as necessary. Don't look too closely! 

 

It's hard to believe that in just over a month's time, this real section of railway will have been closed for 60 years! 

 

 

Another Airfix 4F with the usual alterations, this one sporting a tall Stanier chimney. It's heading the daily Down pick-up. St Medard's church spire is painted on the backscene, For those interested in religion, this is a unique dedication. 

 

The overbridge is a modified Hornby item, the prototype of which existed six miles west of Bytham. Talk about selective compression! If one is going to be a hypocrite, then no half measures!

 

 

I think much better 4Fs can be obtained now by different means. I built the nearer 4F from a SE Finecast kit (writing it up as a pair in BRM some years ago). The one approaching I modified from a Bachmann example. 

 

All the 4Fs seen here will have run on the MR/M&GNR road in BR days.

 

Don't Tony Gee's signals look lovely? 

[Tony Wright]

A quick question if i may? Where do you get your PVC sleeping as used on pickups? My former source from a friend has now dried up, so looks like I have to actually buy some. I've had a quick look online and haven't had much luck. Many thanks in anticipation.

It's available from Mercontrol; or it's called Mercontrol sleeving/tubing.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Tony Wright

[Denbridge]

It's available from Mercontrol; or it's called Mercontrol sleeving/tubing.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

many thanks. Now why didn't I think of That? I used their tubing in the past for turnout control. The grey cells are certainly getting dimmer.

[Barry O]

The photos show how oversize the splashers are on the Airfix loco.

 

Did you put a new chassis into the Bachmann tender as it is also a bit strange?

 

baz

[jamie92208]

Thanks Jamie,

 

I'll bet, though, your Single (in O Gauge?) doesn't have a cheap pancake motor, doesn't have noisy plastic gears and doesn't have traction tyres. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

,

 

Yes it is 7mm a Brass Janick kit bought on the club sales stand at Warley the first time I went. Built by my late friend Tony Bond. The motors IIRC are Cannon 1822's with I think Markits gearboxes at 40:1 mounted back to back. A few years ago we realised that the main driving wheels were looking a little loose and realised that one of the soldered joints in the crank axle had come loose. We've never done anything about it and it's never derailed. It normally hauls the Inspection saloon with two gentleman sitting on the rear verandah, one in a Bowler (The Inspector) and one in a flat hat, the nervous local engineer.

 

 

Jamie

 

 

Jamie

[Tony Wright]

The photos show how oversize the splashers are on the Airfix loco.

 

Did you put a new chassis into the Bachmann tender as it is also a bit strange?

 

baz

No Baz,

 

It's a Midland-style, small tender; appropriate for the loco.

 

Tony. 

[Woodcock29]

Tony

Yesterday I saw that the 1938 DVD is actually stuck on the cover of the Nov BRM which has now arrived in newsagents here in Oz. So not just for subscribers here.

Andrew

[Manxcat]

SE Finecast K3 02.jpg

 

Progress this afternoon on the SE Finecast K3. The basic tender body is also built.

 

I'm frequently asked which loco kit would I recommend for a first-time builder in OO. My answer, a SE Finecast inside-cylinder tender loco. 

 

Not the above, even though it's a lovely kit. It's all those twiddly outside bits to do, you see. 

 

She already looks very good indeed Tony. When you showed me the chassis running so sweetly at Peterborough I was very impressed.

[Dave Hunt]

Just for interest, I thought it may be worth mentioning that like Jamie I have a Midland Spinner with tender drive, in this case a Scale7 2601 Class (Princess of Wales) with a bogie tender driven by two motor bogies. It ran successfully at exhibitions for a number of years on Bob Essery's Dewsbury layout and Peter Kibble's Severn Mill and was christened by the late John Horton 'the fastest tram in the west'. Mind you, it is fully sprung, like Jamie's it is heavy, and no, Tony, it doesn't have a cheap pancake motor, doesn't have noisy plastic gears and doesn't have traction tyres.   

[Tony Wright]

She already looks very good indeed Tony. When you showed me the chassis running so sweetly at Peterborough I was very impressed.

Even more progress this afternoon, Archie. 

 

 

It'll be Scottish-based 61823 (Yeadon Volume 8 p. 82), with flared-top tender and RH-drive. 

 

All being well she'll be ready for painting within a month. 

[CF MRC]

Just for interest, I thought it may be worth mentioning that like Jamie I have a Midland Spinner with tender drive, in this case a Scale7 2601 Class (Princess of Wales) with a bogie tender driven by two motor bogies. It ran successfully at exhibitions for a number of years on Bob Essery's Dewsbury layout and Peter Kibble's Severn Mill and was christened by the late John Horton 'the fastest tram in the west'. Mind you, it is fully sprung, like Jamie's it is heavy, and no, Tony, it doesn't have a cheap pancake motor, doesn't have noisy plastic gears and doesn't have traction tyres.

 

Whatever would Mr Sharman say?

This old lady, made 40 years ago, has the drive in the place where you would expect it and, of course, working pistons and cross heads driven from the crank axle, which uses the outside bearings. The tender is a little big for this class of engine, but it had to accommodate a Portescap 1219 motor, possibly one of the earliest uses for this type in a model. It’s pulling power is adequate, but my later singles are a little better in that department.

 

 

Tim

[Tony Wright]

Just to let anyone know....................

 

Mo and I should have been at the Southampton Show in Eastleigh this weekend, but unfortunately she is suffering from a chronic cough and feeling very feverish. I'm told there's a lot of it about at the moment.

 

It would not be fair to leave her, so my apologies to all concerned for our not being there. 

 

It really is an excellent show, very well-organised and full of first class layouts, demonstrators and traders. I wish it the great success it deserves to be. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[bbishop]

Whatever would Mr Sharman say?

This old lady, made 40 years ago, has the drive in the place where you would expect it and, of course, working pistons and cross heads driven from the crank axle, which uses the outside bearings. The tender is a little big for this class of engine, but it had to accommodate a Portescap 1219 motor, possibly one of the earliest uses for this type in a model. It’s pulling power is adequate, but my later singles are a little better in that department.

 

 

Tim

 

Tim,

 

Is that the infamous 5 wheeled tender?

 

Bill

Edited January 25, 2019 by bbishop

[Barry O]

Just to let anyone know....................

 

Mo and I should have been at the Southampton Show in Eastleigh this weekend, but unfortunately she is suffering from a chronic cough and feeling very feverish. I'm told there's a lot of it about at the moment.

 

It would not be fair to leave her, so my apologies to all concerned for our not being there. 

 

It really is an excellent show, very well-organised and full of first class layouts, demonstrators and traders. I wish it the great success it deserves to be. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

Hope Mo feels better soon. Can you pass on my best wishes Tony please?

Baz

[St Enodoc]

W

 

WR dates 'late 1956' 'certain mainline passenger engines to be painted green and lined out and that probably sits with the initial appearance of the second emblem. Smaller passenger and mixed traffic engines to be painted green but not to be lined. Caerphilly first applied the latter Instruction to engines outshopped in December 1956 with 3x56XX,  1x41XX  and 1x63XX turned out that month in unlined green.

 

A  further WR Instruction was issued on 25 January 1957 that all engines painted green were to be lined, Caerphilly first applied it to 4152 which was returned to traffic on 15 February 1957

 

The second BR crest was first applied to an engine repainted at Caerphilly on 5680 outshopped on 19 March 1957.

 

Officially the lining of the fender on tenders was discontinued in July 1957 but it think it is debatable which works other than Caerphilly had applied to the tenders of smaller engines such as 43XX.

 

Caerphilly reverted to occasionally painting some smaller engines black from March 1958 but whether this was due to an official Instruction is not known and it wasn't applied universally.

 

I still can't trace a date when 'economy green' as it was known took over from lining on smaller engines but there is some evidence it was going on by 1960 at Swindon although Caerphilly was definitely  turning out 'smaller engines' in lined green in May of that year. 

 

 

 

Definitely pretty rare as a lined green livery, especially with the red reversing rod and the lined out fender.  Is the back of the tender lined which was reportedly the case with 4358 (I think there might somewhere be a photo to prove that)?

My February Backtrack has just arrived. On the cover is a photo of 6377 at Newton Abbot in July 1957, lined green, tender flare unlined, small early emblem. Inside is a photo feature that includes 5330 at Swindon Works, lined green, tender flare unlined, tender cropped so emblem not visible; 7330 at Moat Lane Junction, 24/9/60, lined green, tender flare unlined, small later emblem; and 7337 at Brimscombe in 1962, unlined green, large late emblem.

Edited January 25, 2019 by St Enodoc

[CF MRC]

Tim,

 

Is that the infamous 5 wheeled tender?

 

Bill

No, that was the Midland Compound converted from a Peco Jubilee (there wasn’t much a Jubilee couldn’t be made in to in those days). The Jubillee tender mechanisms wore badly, so much so that the the flangeless centre wheels dropped between the rails - probably not helped by our 9.42 mm gauge on the fast lines on Chiltern Green. So the obvious solution was to remove the centre tender wheel from the non viewing side of the engine, hence the 5 wheeled tender. Equally naughty, but on CF we had a partially converted Minitrix A4 running for a few years which had finescale carrying wheels but retained the N gauge driving wheels - worked whilst we had no turnouts on the line.

 

Tim

[Tony Wright]

My February Backtrack has just arrived. On the cover is a photo of 6377 at Newton Abbot in July 1957, lined green, tender flare unlined, small early emblem. Inside is a photo feature that includes 5330 at Swindon Works, lined green, tender flare unlined, tender cropped so emblem not visible; 7330 at Moat Lane Junction, 24/9/60, lined green, tender flare unlined, small later emblem; and 7337 at Brimscombe, unlined green, large late emblem.

Thanks Mike,

 

It would seem then that the Heljan livery manifestation is a very rare one indeed, if not unique to a 43XX. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.