Wright writes.....

[robertcwp]

22 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

Good evening Andrew,

 

Has anyone ever built a model of Chaloners Whin Junction? 

 

It's one of those junctions where the 'main' line is the one which appears to veer off; long-gone now, of course. 

 

I wonder how many drivers on the A19 today south of Riccall know that they're travelling on the remains of a section of what was once the ECML?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.   

Didn't the main line appear to veer off because it was built later than the route coming up from Church Fenton? 

 

This image from my collection was taken somewhere along the closed section. I think York Minster is visible on the horizon. The photographer was probably hoping for the rostered Deltic to appear. 

 

47501_SilverJub_JUL-77 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Chamby]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

A weekend not attending a show! Now, that's a novelty.

 

Anyway, I've put some of the time towards doing more of the LB point rodding................

 

 

The MSE/Comet/Wizard cast and etched components are absolutely first rate, and far more realistic than the over-scale Wills plastic stuff, However, there's always a down-side. Nothing wrong with the materials, but the time factor. This little lot to the left has taken me over 10 hours to make (solder together), paint, install and weather. Just look at the length of the gap still to be filled, between that pair of vans and adjacent to the repeating signal in the distance. Still, well worth doing  (I now notice it's not there!)

 

 

Moving a bit further south, and following the progress of BONGRACE on the Up 'Yorkshire Pullman', there's also a bit more rodding appeared to the right (only three and a half hours this morning).

 

Just to left of the Down slow is a short run of rodding already made. How much further to go, I wonder? All the way up to the barrow crossing, and down further south towards Marsh Bridge. 

 

A bit at a time, I think. 

 

 

 

Well however long it takes you, it is worthwhile Tony.  Somehow it adds another level of detailed definition to the layout.  Impressive.

 

Ho hum, thats another thing to add to the growing list for my own project...

 

Phil

[50A55B]

20 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Didn't the main line appear to veer off because it was built later than the route coming up from Church Fenton? 

 

This image from my collection was taken somewhere along the closed section. I think York Minster is visible on the horizon. The photographer was probably hoping for the rostered Deltic to appear. 

 

47501_SilverJub_JUL-77 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

I think that’s the clock tower of Terry’s chocolate factory rather than the Minster. People may have noticed it when queueing to enter the York exhibition at the racecourse.

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Clive,

 

not Church Fenton. Chaloners Whin Junction. If you follow the line north from Church Fenton on your old map, you will come to the point that it is intersected by the ECML, that is Chaloners Whin Junction. It no longer exist, having been replaced by the junction at Colton as part of the construction of the Selby diversion.

Hi Andrew

 

Whoops my error. I know where you mean now, the place where there was a delightful little garage next to the line. It appears frequently in David Ford's photographs. Note the cottages either side of the line are in LNER/ER colours, I wonder if they are or had been raiwaymen's cottages before Moor Lane bridge was built when the road crossed on the level.

 

It would make a wonderful model. A problem with junction models is integrating the lines in the fiddle yard, it is either a second junction or at least one line crossing over another on a higher level. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Presumably you are making the sections off board where you can Tony, especially for the straight sections? 

Love the site view in these photo's by the way. A real looking down from a high bridge scene.

Phil

 

I am Phil,

 

I've made a simple wooden jig which fixes the distances for the stools, then I just solder the wire (rodding) into place, fixing the cranks and compensators where I think is appropriate. I started off using the square wire supplied for the purpose by Andrew at MSE, but I couldn't tell whether I'd soldered it into the stools flat-topped or triangular. Subsequently, everything is now round brass wire. It's impossible to tell when it's painted, anyway. 

 

And now, for those who follow the Southern, isn't this a pretty line-up?

 

 

A selection of Hornby's latest Terriers, a full report on which will appear soon in BRM. They all work superbly! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

22 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

Well however long it takes you, it is worthwhile Tony.  Somehow it adds another level of detailed definition to the layout.  Impressive.

 

Ho hum, thats another thing to add to the growing list for my own project...

 

Phil

Thanks Phil,

 

I do a few lengths at a time, as can be seen. It's really a bit tedious and repetitive, but it must be done. The moment I installed the first section, I became immediately aware that the point rodding was missing from the rest of the layout; something I hadn't noticed before.

 

I really can't expect anyone else to do it for me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, petrovich said:

Looking very good Tony just a few months to go I would estimate.

 

Regards

 

Peter

Or weeks, Peter?

 

I've still got to build the proper bridge in the background as well.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[petrovich]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Or weeks, Peter?

 

I've still got to build the proper bridge in the background as well.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony I would be very interested if you put a short film or article together on how you assemble and fit the rodding. It does look really good.

 

Regards

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Andrew

 

Whoops my error. I know where you mean now, the place where there was a delightful little garage next to the line. It appears frequently in David Ford's photographs. Note the cottages either side of the line are in LNER/ER colours, I wonder if they are or had been raiwaymen's cottages before Moor Lane bridge was built when the road crossed on the level.

 

It would make a wonderful model. A problem with junction models is integrating the lines in the fiddle yard, it is either a second junction or at least one line crossing over another on a higher level. 

Church Fenton itself would make a good model, especially if set before the Wetherby line closed.

[drmditch]

Re: ECML modelling locations. Does not the NER/NEA main line north of York offer attractions? Trains in GWR, LMS, and SR (or if you prefer LNWR, L&Y and LSWR - I think but haven't checked) could all provide modelling and viewing interest.

 

For a large layout Ferryhill offers massive scope, or for a simpler presentation perhaps Croxdale Station and viaduct. Also ( if you like building girder bridges) the Deerness/Dearness viaduct and Relly/Relley Mill junctions would be fascinating.

 

With so many GN originating ECML models, some of us should support the NER. After all, it was a larger and more profitable railway than the GN.

[Tony Teague]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I am Phil,

 

I've made a simple wooden jig which fixes the distances for the stools, then I just solder the wire (rodding) into place, fixing the cranks and compensators where I think is appropriate. I started off using the square wire supplied for the purpose by Andrew at MSE, but I couldn't tell whether I'd soldered it into the stools flat-topped or triangular. Subsequently, everything is now round brass wire. It's impossible to tell when it's painted, anyway. 

 

And now, for those who follow the Southern, isn't this a pretty line-up?

 

 

A selection of Hornby's latest Terriers, a full report on which will appear soon in BRM. They all work superbly! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Nice line-up Tony.

 

Having one of the older models with an identical number, I staged my own comparison to see whether it was really worth upgrading; the difference is staggering:

 

(New - left, old - right) Note different cab and chimney heights!

Some of the details on the old model are incredibly crude, e.g. brake rodding:

 

Even the shape of the side tanks & the boiler itself are noticeably different:

 

 

The new model shows just how far things have moved on.

 

Tony

[rowanj]

With reference to recent posts on Jinties on the NE Region, I have an article in Steam World Jan 2003 on the subject. My (dodgy) memory seems to think there was another earlier one, but I cant find it. The attached scan shows an "Odd Couple" at York, and a table giving relevant dates and numbers. Reading the whole article, they weren't  exactly welcomed with open arms...typical inter-regional prejudice, or merely a preference for the known, tried and tested.

 

If Mods think there is a copyright issue, I'll withdraw the photo.

 

John

Edited March 31, 2019 by rowanj

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, drmditch said:

Re: ECML modelling locations. Does not the NER/NEA main line north of York offer attractions? Trains in GWR, LMS, and SR (or if you prefer LNWR, L&Y and LSWR - I think but haven't checked) could all provide modelling and viewing interest.

 

For a large layout Ferryhill offers massive scope, or for a simpler presentation perhaps Croxdale Station and viaduct. Also ( if you like building girder bridges) the Deerness/Dearness viaduct and Relly/Relley Mill junctions would be fascinating.

 

With so many GN originating ECML models, some of us should support the NER. After all, it was a larger and more profitable railway than the GN.

I think the answer is in your post (or is it a further question?). Why, in comparison, are there so few NER/ECML modelswith GN/ECML ones (or NBR/ECML)? 

 

Off the top of my head, I've photographed layouts in all scales and gauges representing Kings Cross (3), Belle Isle (1), Welwyn North, Hitchin, Biggleswade, Arlesey, Huntingdon North, Peterborough North (2), Greatford, Little Bytham, Stoke Summit, High Dyke, Grantham, Gamston Bank, Retford and Bawtry. There might well be more. In comparison on the NE? Otterington; that's about it. 

 

Again, why so few in comparison? 

 

Any answers, please.

 

My reasoning (and, as usual, it's contentious)? On the locomotive front, nothing which emanated from Darlington had the same 'charisma' as the products of Doncaster. I'm talking big stuff here. Though the NE Atlantics were sound locos, the Pacifics were awful - outmoded, outdated and not capable of further development, even when brand new. In comparison with the GN Pacifics they were the 'index' to a chapter, not the 'introduction'. Though some V2s were built at Darlington (and some A1s Post-War, as well as the A2/1s), they were not NER design developments. I firmly believe the popularity of the southern end of the ECML is/was down to the LNER 'big engine' policy - a policy created and continued at Doncaster. Of course, these big locos worked north (in numbers) as well, but it's where they were designed which matters in my view. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[MarkC]

I think that a properly done NER based model would have more emphasis on the mineral traffic which, let's be honest, was the cornerstone of the NER's profitability. Then there were the local services and through workings such as the Newcastle-Liverpool traffic. Although there is a tendency to focus on the 'glamour services', the reality was that they were well outnumbered by the other workings in the area, many of which were powered by Darlington designed/built locomotives right up until the bitter end for steam in September 1967.

 

Just a thought.

 

Mark

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, petrovich said:

Tony I would be very interested if you put a short film or article together on how you assemble and fit the rodding. It does look really good.

 

Regards

Thanks Peter,

 

But where am I going to find the time? 

 

It would appear to be no longer the sort of article BRM might be interested in - tricky soldering/forming metal parts/working on a large project, so elsewhere? 

 

Right now I'm building five locos on commission, I have two to fit valve gear to (built by others, then they got stumped), two which need chassis making (beyond their builders?), Gilbert Barnatt wants an A2/2 built by me, I have three of my own locos to complete, a MR/M&GNR girder bridge to build and that rodding to finish. Not only that, I have layout photographic commissions coming up, more bookazines to write for Irwell, further books on the horizon to write for Booklaw and (right now) umpteen products to photograph for BRM. 

 

It does make me laugh on occasions when folk are involved in making/writing/demonstrating/explaining/photographing/etc/etc stuff relating to our great hobby, that when they express an opinion or offer advice, they're soundly 'scolded' in some quarters for 'dictating' to others. 

 

Even posting stuff on here takes time, though I do it because (I hope) it has some little worth and I enjoy it.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

13 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Andrew

 

Whoops my error. I know where you mean now, the place where there was a delightful little garage next to the line. It appears frequently in David Ford's photographs. Note the cottages either side of the line are in LNER/ER colours, I wonder if they are or had been raiwaymen's cottages before Moor Lane bridge was built when the road crossed on the level.

 

It would make a wonderful model. A problem with junction models is integrating the lines in the fiddle yard, it is either a second junction or at least one line crossing over another on a higher level. 

 

Morning Clive,

 

the second junction works very well on LSGC when dealing with trains from north loop that cross the mainlines. They are then reorientated in the fiddleyard throat for positioning in the fiddleyard. Chaloners Whin Junction would be somewhat more complicated but the operation would be most interesting to watch. Working out the various movements from archive material would be quite a challenge, in addition to the station and yards, there is also Dringhouses to consider. Take the long distance workings from LB, add a couple of slices of NE, a dollop of LMS and season with a pinch of SR and GWR. The traffic and flow across the junction would be most appealing.

 

I have my own carbon copy garage, it's due for a repaint this spring/summer, I'm undecided on the livery application.

[Headstock]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Church Fenton itself would make a good model, especially if set before the Wetherby line closed.

 

It would make a smashing layout but it would rquire a large amount of space if both junctions were to be included. Shear of the junctions and it just becomes another station layout with train running through. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just that there are already a heck of a lot of them.

[APOLLO]

Agree there should be more NER based layouts, after all the area was the birthplace of railways.

 

I remember an NER layout at the Wigan show quite a few years ago - set in a snowy winter environment at night - lots of signal and building lights etc gave a wonderful atmosphere.

 

NER main line  - Durham would perhaps make a nice layout.

 

17 Jan 1970 Liverpool Newcastle Express arriving at Durham

 

 

I'm gonna leave old Durham Town - 10 July 1968 Newcastle to Darlington behind a Deltic

 

 

Not NER but if ever I fancied modelling a terminus then Leeds City Central it would be - short(ish) trains, Pacifics, Deltics etc !!

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by APOLLO
Edited to get the station name right !!

[Headstock]

26 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I think the answer is in your post (or is it a further question?). Why, in comparison, are there so few NER/ECML modelswith GN/ECML ones (or NBR/ECML)? 

 

Off the top of my head, I've photographed layouts in all scales and gauges representing Kings Cross (3), Belle Isle (1), Welwyn North, Hitchin, Biggleswade, Arlesely, Huntingdon North, Peterborough North (2), Greatford, Little Bytham, Stoke Summit, High Dyke, Grantham, Gamston Bank, Retford and Bawtry. There might well be more. In comparison on the NE? Otterington; that's about it. 

 

Again, why so few in comparison? 

 

Any answers, please.

 

My reasoning (and, as usual, it's contentious)? On the locomotive front, nothing which emanated from Darlington had the same 'charisma' as the products of Doncaster. I'm talking big stuff here. Though the NE Atlantics were sound locos, the Pacifics were awful - outmoded, outdated and not capable of further development, even when brand new. In comparison with the GN Pacifics they were the 'index' to a chapter, not the 'introduction'. Though some V2s were built at Darlington (and some A1s Post-War, as well as the A2/1s), they were not NER design developments. I firmly believe the popularity of the southern end of the ECML is/was down to the LNER 'big engine' policy - a policy created and continued at Doncaster. Of course, these big locos worked north (in numbers) as well, but it's where they were designed which matters in my view. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Morning Tony,

 

my contentious reply would be that all the research is done, so it is easy for one layout to carbon copy another.

[Headstock]

3 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Not NER but if ever I fancied modelling a terminus then Leeds City it would be - short(ish) trains, Pacifics, Deltics etc !!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

Leeds city, or New station, was an amalgamation of different companies stations including the NER. They built the outer platforms on the Holbeck side. The trains were not exactly what I would call short, the Thames Clyde express as an example.

[New Haven Neil]

Apollo - Hudson Road.  Jon Grant.  Nice feller, I met him through USA layouts though!  He's from Sunderland, hence his NER interest.

[jamie92208]

Junction layouts are difficult to build as exhibition layouts.   When I was looking for a prototype to replace Long Preston I looked long and Hard at Clapham.  It had many lovely features, not the least of which would have been Ingleborough as a backscene.  However two things put me off.  The first was the viaduct immediately east of the station.   Though as a model it would have looked nice with a winding road with stone walls coming up from a river bridge underneath it, the viaduct would have been a very difficult board to build and transport. 

 

The second factor was how to deal with the junction.   The main line branched fairly sharply left, just like at Chaloners Whin and the lesser trafficked Ingleton branch went straight on.   I did try sketching it out with the geometry altered so that the scenic side would have been a concave curve and the branch line curving in the opposite direction.   They would both have gone round to a fiddle yard but the west end of the layout would have been much deeper than the east end to accommodate the reverse curves necessary to get the main line round to the fiddle yard.

 

On Green Ayre, I had to include the branch to Lancaster Castle but had to curve it quite sharply but I was able to have it terminate in it's own small traverser fiddle yard.   However this meant that the main line fiddle yard had to be shortened quite considerably.  Geometry dictates that any long trains that I want to run have to be in the down direction and even then they have had to come down from 22 wagons to 17.   

 

There are always compromises but as has been mentioned Chaloners Whin would be a lovely ,trainwatching layout, like Stoke Bank.

 

Jamie

[glo41f]

The question has been raised on why the NER is not so strongly represented in the model world.  The NER was a most profitable railway and did its job well. Could it be down to a regional bias in that it served an area which was economically poorer and thus its citizens had no time for fripperies such as railway modelling?  The Keithley group created some fine NER based models over the years. For my part I do not particularly "take " to the NER locomotives which seem to lack the grace and looks of those emanating from the southern part of the LNER system . They look chunky and workmanlike as befits their roles. That said the Scottish railways in the system had some lovely locos.  There is plenty of research material and a lively line society so why is this not reflected in more model railways?

 

Martin Long

[Headstock]

33 minutes ago, glo41f said:

The question has been raised on why the NER is not so strongly represented in the model world.  The NER was a most profitable railway and did its job well. Could it be down to a regional bias in that it served an area which was economically poorer and thus its citizens had no time for fripperies such as railway modelling?  The Keithley group created some fine NER based models over the years. For my part I do not particularly "take " to the NER locomotives which seem to lack the grace and looks of those emanating from the southern part of the LNER system . They look chunky and workmanlike as befits their roles. That said the Scottish railways in the system had some lovely locos.  There is plenty of research material and a lively line society so why is this not reflected in more model railways?

 

Martin Long

 

I think that NE layouts have been strongly represented over the years. It's just that those of NE persuasion don't model the ECML so much. With regard to the locomotives that emanated from the southern part of the LNER system, they were designed and built in Yorkshire not Tumbridge Wells.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Headstock
remove an errant I

[rowanj]

I think it depends what era we are talking about when modelling the NER and its successors. Tony may well be trying to contentious about big locos and Doncaster, but in BR days there were as many north of York as there were south. The commoner ones just had different names/numbers and I never "died waiting for Cicero" at Newcastle. So all the Pacifics, V2,B1,K3 etc were common fodder. What we didn't see regularly/ever were the J6,O2 and 4, etc, but there were plenty of NE based equivalents, J27, B16, A8, G5 etc.

 

So I doubt it's just about locos as such. What there has never been , until relatively recently, is a tradition of readily available RTR and kits to build a representative stud. Even now, it's an issue, though much improved on the motive power front. Andrew (Headstock) keeps asking me to build Ex-NER coaches. Believe me, I would if I could find them...

 

Whether there were or still are economic regional issues, I don't know. It's certainly a possibility. But there have always been model railway clubs and exhibitions , and model shops too, in North East England, so presumably, plenty of local modellers too.

 

My current, and probably last, railway is a Tyneside prototype, and I wouldn't want my wife to find out how may locos with an ECML connection, (which is how I used to justify my having these things), I decided to sell, on the basis that they were too "foreign". Of those left, almost all were renumbered to better fit the location. 

 

In short, I don't know the answer.

 

John

Edited March 31, 2019 by rowanj