Wright writes.....

[Woodcock29]

26 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

Well, I’ve just taken the plunge Tony and purchased my very first locomotive kit. Just got of the phone from Dave at South Eastern Finecast, a J39 will be on its way down under soon. 

 

Be prepared for countless phone calls and RMWEB posts Tony! It’ll be the chassis that I’ll need help with! Just need to get a jig now...

A great move Jesse. Its the only way to go to get a lot of the LNER locos one needs.

 

Andrew

[Barry Ten]

2 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

I just googled swear word books!  

 

Every home should have one:

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Chuffs can be synced on the better brands of decoder but not TTS.

 

It would be interesting to give the same type of loco (sans TTS sound) to one of the expert DCC sound installers and then compare the resulting custom installation with the out-of-the box Hornby sound.

 

Are the better brands of decoder able to identify driving wheel speed?

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Are the better brands of decoder able to identify driving wheel speed?

 

Some (I believe) can be made to work with a sensor and magnet on the driving axle, otherwise you've got to set up the decoder to match the wheel rotation.

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Are the better brands of decoder able to identify driving wheel speed?

Yes, Zimo decoders for example can use either a "virtual sensor" or a real sensor connected to one of the inputs.

 

The virtual sensor doesn't need any extra hardware or wiring - you fiddle around with a couple of CV values to sync the chuffs with the driving wheel speed purely based on timing.

 

The real sensors can be either simple mechanical switches, reed switches, opto-switches or hall-effect transistors. I imagine it's quite fiddly to get these working in 4mm scale, though. and I haven't ever actually seen such a setup...

 

[Clive Mortimore]

I find DCC sound is all locomotive where as the big railway is a collection of noises. Take a summers day at Sandy station in 1970, the distinctive song of a blackbird marking out its territory is disturbed by the bells dinging in the signal box. "Ting" go the signal wires as the signalman pulls the signals. The blackbird's song has competition from the low whistling as the continuous welded rail vibrates with the approaching train. Slowly a humming noise is getting louder as a Deltic is approaching, soon this is so loud I cannot hear my mate saying it is a cop. By the second coach the noise has changed to that of the combined rush of displaced wind and wheel sound. This gets quieter and "clunk, clunk, clunk" as the signal bounces back to danger the last sound before the blackbird takes over. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[grahame]

I have to admit that after watching the video I wasn't that impressed by the sound - it appeared to be all loco noise (and rather loud) and no associated train noises. It was certainly missing something by lacking any other railway sounds or environment noise. It sounded insular and disembodied. And the train seemed rather short. Does the model not easily handle anything longer?

 

G

 

 

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, Kingzance said:

A little request for info if you please Mr Wright!

 

Some years ago I think, you reviewed a range of new coaching stock in BRM and also described how you close-coupled said items in your rakes. Although I have trawled (not trolled) through the records I have, I cannot find those details. I am looking to make up a couple of rakes of four clerestories using the old (60's / 70's) Tri-ang bodies, fitted with new Bachmann 9' bogies, paintwork updated etc. I am not sufficiently confident to take a saw to these not quite to any prototype design but the finer connections that could be achieved using your wire loop and hook arrangement does appeal.

What gauge of wire did you use for both part please? Would you also kindly show the underside of your coach at the hook end (the bar end is simple enough) if I can copy that? I have in mind to upgrade an old Hornby Saint that someone has kindly donated to something more accurate and the idea of the Saint pulling 8 clerestories really appeals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The concertina gangways are from Modellers Mecca and the carriage roof boards from Pacific Models.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Quote

Thanks in anticipation,

Signed

A very basic modeller who knows he can't reach the standards of LB!

Glad to help,

 

I 'improved' some of Bachmann's current Thompson carriages, writing up what I did in BRM and Bachmann Times.

 

My couplings are dead easy to make, cost pence and (in my view) enhance the running and appearance of RTR gangwayed stock. There is only one caveat; they are not automatic or even semi-automatic, though they can be propelled just as easily. 

 

Materials are copper-clad PCB sleepers for fixing to the back of the headstocks, '45mm brass or nickel silver wire for the hooks and goalposts and 30Amp fusewire to represent the hoses.

 

The following pictures should help.

 

The post has got muddled up somehow, but it's all there................

 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

11 minutes ago, grahame said:

I have to admit that after watching the video I wasn't that impressed by the sound - it appeared to be all loco noise (and rather loud) and no associated train noises. It was certainly missing something by lacking any other railway sounds or environment noise. It sounded insular and disembodied. And the train seemed rather short. Does the model not easily handle anything longer?

 

G

 

 

Short train, Grahame?

 

J36s did occasionally pull short rakes. It will take more, but for the purposes of the short clip, it was sufficient. It was the sound we were after. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[grahame]

16 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Short train, Grahame?

 

J36s did occasionally pull short rakes. It will take more, but for the purposes of the short clip, it was sufficient. 

 

I was wondering if it was a short train because that was the limit of its haulage ability - I often read of people bemoaning the lack of grunt by some RTR steam locos.

 

G

[Kingzance]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The concertina gangways are from Modellers Mecca and the carriage roof boards from Pacific Models.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Glad to help,

 

I 'improved' some of Bachmann's current Thompson carriages, writing up what I did in BRM and Bachmann Times.

 

My couplings are dead easy to make, cost pence and (in my view) enhance the running and appearance of RTR gangwayed stock. There is only one caveat; they are not automatic or even semi-automatic, though they can be propelled just as easily. 

 

Materials are copper-clad PCB sleepers for fixing to the back of the headstocks, '45mm brass or nickel silver wire for the hooks and goalposts and 30Amp fusewire to represent the hoses.

 

The following pictures should help.

 

The post has got muddled up somehow, but it's all there................

 

 

Thank you very much Tony, those are exactly the style I remember. When the saint is hauling 8, I will supply a photo!

[t-b-g]

4 hours ago, grahame said:

I have to admit that after watching the video I wasn't that impressed by the sound - it appeared to be all loco noise (and rather loud) and no associated train noises. It was certainly missing something by lacking any other railway sounds or environment noise. It sounded insular and disembodied. And the train seemed rather short. Does the model not easily handle anything longer?

 

G

 

 

 

I got exactly the same impression. Lots of really loud hissy noises, which I actually found very intrusive and wished they would stop. I ended up turning the sound off on my speakers! I just wanted the wagons to clatter and bang along behind the loco and they didn't.

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I got exactly the same impression. Lots of really loud hissy noises, which I actually found very intrusive and wished they would stop. I ended up turning the sound off on my speakers! I just wanted the wagons to clatter and bang along behind the loco and they didn't.

Thanks Tony,

 

I think the sound needs adjusting - it was far too loud, but don't ask me to do it!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[t-b-g]

44 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Tony,

 

I think the sound needs adjusting - it was far too loud, but don't ask me to do it!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I think I know how to adjust it. There are two wires that go from the main board to the speaker. Snipping one or both might improve things!

[Mallard60022]

Controversial comment coming up; alert all areas! I like DCC for a lot of things, but not all, and actually used DCC Sound for a small diesel (sorry) shed /yard based, end to end EM layout that I have. However, it was mightily expensive to fit out the sound for the diesels and quality varied enormously (not for discussion here at the moment) but was fun for what it was used for at an exhibition. However, most steam loco DCC sounds I have heard are absolutely naff, regardless of who has put together the programme (again, I don't want to waste space here discussing this please). 

At the moment I would say that DCC sound is there for someone's pleasure at hearing a familiar noise and not something that can be used to create a true railway sounds atmosphere. When someone creates the system that reproduces the best of Peter Handford' railway soundscapes, then I might get interested. I think Hornby have tried to start with their funny little sounds Van and that is really only a toy, and Brimal have a 'sounds in the environment' box of tricks (not heard that yet), but so far the picture and sound of the railway in my 'memory head' is all that makes my day.

Phil

[Tony Wright]

Just a brief update on a couple of things................

 

I was unfairly disparaging about the work on my friend's L1 mentioned earlier in these pages. Actually, that's not quite right, because I was disparaging about him, thinking he was responsible for starting it. He wasn't! He bought it second-hand some little time ago. So, to whom the builder of it was (to the stage I got it at), I'll say your preparatory work was rubbish!  

 

Now, regarding a potential model railway course next year. The Willoughby has seven double rooms available, and the proprietor is certainly interested. He's going to give me a fee, and then I'll make that known.

[Pacific231G]

5 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Controversial comment coming up; alert all areas! I like DCC for a lot of things, but not all, and actually used DCC Sound for a small diesel (sorry) shed /yard based, end to end EM layout that I have. However, it was mightily expensive to fit out the sound for the diesels and quality varied enormously (not for discussion here at the moment) but was fun for what it was used for at an exhibition. However, most steam loco DCC sounds I have heard are absolutely naff, regardless of who has put together the programme (again, I don't want to waste space here discussing this please). 

At the moment I would say that DCC sound is there for someone's pleasure at hearing a familiar noise and not something that can be used to create a true railway sounds atmosphere. When someone creates the system that reproduces the best of Peter Handford' railway soundscapes, then I might get interested. I think Hornby have tried to start with their funny little sounds Van and that is really only a toy, and Brimal have a 'sounds in the environment' box of tricks (not heard that yet), but so far the picture and sound of the railway in my 'memory head' is all that makes my day.

Phil

 

The danger is that in audio terms we may do the equivalent of building a beautiful brass model then painting it with a crude brush.

 

DCC sound systems produce what is known in TV, movies and radio drama as a "spot" effect but spot effects with no other sound to provide context and ambience sound very odd- a bit like early sound movies before dubbing was developed.  

 

I think it would be possible, though not easy, to have a system that detects the position of locomotives and possibly other vehicles and used that to add the relevant sound to an overall soundscape though even harder to make that work for more than a single viewing/listening position.

I think part of the problem with on board sound systems is one of sound perspective. If you record the authentic sounds of a locomotive from close up - probably the only way to get a clean recording of those specific sounds- you can't just play it back from a speaker aboard the loco and hope that  it will sound like the locomotive as heard from a typical viewing distance. Sounds change considerably with distance (rather as colours do) and different audio freqencies are more or less absorbed.  In the example being discussed, the fireman's shovel is quite a dominant sound as it would be if you were actually in the cab  but, from a typical distance, it would be almost masked by other sounds.   This is far more of an art than a science as we typically view a layout from the equivalent of a high building the other side of the street but psychologically want to feel that we're rather closer to it.

 

[Hollar]

43 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Controversial comment coming up; alert all areas! I like DCC for a lot of things, but not all, and actually used DCC Sound for a small diesel (sorry) shed /yard based, end to end EM layout that I have. However, it was mightily expensive to fit out the sound for the diesels and quality varied enormously (not for discussion here at the moment) but was fun for what it was used for at an exhibition. However, most steam loco DCC sounds I have heard are absolutely naff, regardless of who has put together the programme (again, I don't want to waste space here discussing this please). 

At the moment I would say that DCC sound is there for someone's pleasure at hearing a familiar noise and not something that can be used to create a true railway sounds atmosphere. When someone creates the system that reproduces the best of Peter Handford' railway soundscapes, then I might get interested. I think Hornby have tried to start with their funny little sounds Van and that is really only a toy, and Brimal have a 'sounds in the environment' box of tricks (not heard that yet), but so far the picture and sound of the railway in my 'memory head' is all that makes my day.

Phil

I've also not been impressed by most of the DCC sound I've heard.  However, I was entranced by a sound-equipped  Sutton Loco Class 24 which I saw in John Brighton's Millhouses layout.  This was a high-end chipped, expertly tweaked and driven by John, who is as competent with DCC and anyone I know.  It was, in fact, just like the real thing.  Apart from the fun we were having turning the diesel on and off, slamming the cab doors and stuff like that.  So it can work.

 

Tone

[t-b-g]

16 minutes ago, Hollar said:

I've also not been impressed by most of the DCC sound I've heard.  However, I was entranced by a sound-equipped  Sutton Loco Class 24 which I saw in John Brighton's Millhouses layout.  This was a high-end chipped, expertly tweaked and driven by John, who is as competent with DCC and anyone I know.  It was, in fact, just like the real thing.  Apart from the fun we were having turning the diesel on and off, slamming the cab doors and stuff like that.  So it can work.

 

Tone

 

Even better was the "ambient sound" at John Brighton's place. Taken from sound recordings of real railways and played quietly in the background.

 

I sometimes run Buckingham with a similar set up. Not sounds of express rains hurling by but of yard noises, shunting, buffers clanging, a bit of flange squeal. It just doesn't matter that you are watching a loco make one move and the sound is from a different move. In your mind it is just a different loco on another track just out of sight. 90% of the noise is not the loco chuffing!

[Barry Ten]

I like to have a CD of dawn chorus birdsong playing at a low ambient level in the background.

 

The birdsong isn't quite right for the middle of a summer's day (I'd love a similar recording done from a hay meadow or something) but it does add a lovely

sense of atmosphere and can be very evocative when operating the layout in the middle of winter, and hearing a blackbird's call. It's important to get a CD

which doesn't have commentary, by the way, unless you want to be regaled with "and now we hear the familiar booming call of the common Bittern..." etc.

 

I agree that the focus on locomotive sounds loses the sense of a wider aural picture. I do like the sound decoders which include the guard's whistle. We use

them on Dave Stone's Sherton Abbas (on show at next week's RailEx) and they always get a good reaction from a general audience. We also try to use

flange squeal and so on at appropriate points in the operating sequence. The sounds can almost be lost in a noisy hall, though, but again it's the subtle,

ambient effect we're after.

 

 

Youtube clip by Dave Stone.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Even better was the "ambient sound" at John Brighton's place. Taken from sound recordings of real railways and played quietly in the background.

 

I sometimes run Buckingham with a similar set up. Not sounds of express rains hurling by but of yard noises, shunting, buffers clanging, a bit of flange squeal. It just doesn't matter that you are watching a loco make one move and the sound is from a different move. In your mind it is just a different loco on another track just out of sight. 90% of the noise is not the loco chuffing!

 

I was going to post to say that a digital recording of ambient and background sounds would be my favoured choice of sound scape. Definitely in the background at a moderate volume level.

Then maybe DCC sound fitted diesel locos, again at a moderate volume, could be added into the mixture.

My 1950s ex GER steam/diesel transition layout will be DCC.

My 1910 embryonic EM Gauge GCR/GNR layout will be DC as I don’t find the current sound files for steam locos at all convincing. 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

There are a lot of people who enjoy sound fitted locos. I hope they continue to do but it isn't for me. I actually like the sound that my toy trains model locomotives make because that is what they are. The noises coming from them can indicate if they are in need of some attention. Also I like to hear the sound the wheels make on the track as the trains whizz around the railway room.

 

We all have our own thoughts on what makes a fun operating session.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Hollar said:

I've also not been impressed by most of the DCC sound I've heard.  However, I was entranced by a sound-equipped  Sutton Loco Class 24 which I saw in John Brighton's Millhouses layout.  This was a high-end chipped, expertly tweaked and driven by John, who is as competent with DCC and anyone I know.  It was, in fact, just like the real thing.  Apart from the fun we were having turning the diesel on and off, slamming the cab doors and stuff like that.  So it can work.

 

Tone

Agreed that the individual diesel loco sound can be good, especially if you add the groaning and squeaking (no sniggering at the back) + some other little touches, however the sound of the thing in the landscape is not there. I have a couple of Cold Start versions of 37s and 25s; just need the clouds of clag to go with it. Fun but not authentic, railway surround sound I'm afraid.

P 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

At exhibitions, youngsters in particular like to toot the whistle/hooter or sound the horn on loco's. If they love that then that is excellent. At one small exhibition I was at, there was one layout where one of the operators had got his Granddaughter to do the Station announcements on some sort of recording device that he then had in some sort of gismo. It actually sounded quite good. Are we, with layouts at shows, exhibitionists or entertainers or re-enactors or all of those things, depending upon the audience? Personally, in the comfortable confines of my railway cave, I just like to use my imagination, but I do agree that the sort of quiet background sounds of a suitable environment (que thoughts of Adlestrop), is an excellent idea. Just subtle enough to be noted without being overwhelming as some sound on some layouts too often is.

P

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

I like to have a CD of dawn chorus birdsong playing at a low ambient level in the background.

 

The birdsong isn't quite right for the middle of a summer's day (I'd love a similar recording done from a hay meadow or something) but it does add a lovely

sense of atmosphere and can be very evocative when operating the layout in the middle of winter, and hearing a blackbird's call. It's important to get a CD

which doesn't have commentary, by the way, unless you want to be regaled with "and now we hear the familiar booming call of the common Bittern..." etc.

 

I agree that the focus on locomotive sounds loses the sense of a wider aural picture. I do like the sound decoders which include the guard's whistle. We use

them on Dave Stone's Sherton Abbas (on show at next week's RailEx) and they always get a good reaction from a general audience. We also try to use

flange squeal and so on at appropriate points in the operating sequence. The sounds can almost be lost in a noisy hall, though, but again it's the subtle,

ambient effect we're after.

 

 

Youtube clip by Dave Stone.

I was quite impressed with the sound, Al,

 

However, two things stood out as being incongruous in the scene. One, the incorrect lamp code (stopping passenger train), and, two, assuming it's a branch line terminus, why would a full coal wagon be departing? Picky, I know, but with such a high standard of modelling...............

 

Regards,

 

Tony.